Elmsley count and roughing fluid

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Postby Guest » 05/23/07 01:33 AM

It just came to my naive mind, to put some roughing fluid between the second and third card(the reversed) in the Elmsley count.
In this way, also when and if you do the subsequent Jordan count those two roughed card are also drawn together.
In this way the handling of the cards is more free.
Is it a stupid idea?
If so, please don't hesitate to tell me your opinions!

Postby Matthew Field » 05/23/07 02:33 AM

Unnecessary. A bad idea. Just learn the (easy) sleight.

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Postby Guest » 05/23/07 03:43 AM

I know the sleight and i usually do it.
I just thought that it could help, obviously provide that you can do the sleight, to have those two cards roughed.
As i said, probably is a bad idea.
But thanks anyway for the first feedback.

Postby Bob Farmer » 05/23/07 04:08 AM

This is like buying a deck of blank cards and drawing the faces on one by one rather than simply buying a regular deck of cards -- a total waste of time and energy.
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Postby Guest » 05/23/07 04:14 AM

seems like much work and an invitation for unwanted side effects all for one moment that can be managed by some diligent practice.

Postby Guest » 05/23/07 04:17 AM

Thanks also to you, Mr.Farmer.
A feedback or an opinion, given by a professional, also if it is negative, always helps.

Postby Guest » 05/23/07 05:35 AM

If you are having trouble, a bit of practice on the pace of the count may help. You do not have to go super fast, at least while getting the mechanics down, and even later a nice uniform pace looks best I think. I have heard or read somewhere (cant recall where) that Juan Tamariz would practice his Elmsley to a metronome, counting the card as each beat sounded. I dont know if that is really true but it makes sense. I think the best counts I have seen are done at a nice even pace, eliminating that slight pause when you go to push two cards that sometimes happens. I think this is especially true in learning the Jordan count. If you keep working, you will get it without trying to resort to roughing fluid or other things. Also, I hold the cards in my left palm and count that way rather than holding the cards on the left and right long edges just at the finger tips. I think it looks more natural, but does take some getting used to for some folks.

Postby Bob Farmer » 05/23/07 03:45 PM

I'm not a professional (magician)!

There is another reason this is bad idea: in many effects, the card that is being hidden changes during the effect, so having roughing fluid on some of the cards would not be helpful.

If you want to get the hang of the two-card push-off, forget the Elmsley count and learn Edward Victor's "E-Y-E" trick. It uses just 3 cards.

Also, it is possible to do the Elmsley Count as well as other counts (e.g, the Jordan) without any 2-card push off at all.

Try this as a Jordan Count:

1. Use 4 cards. 3 are face-down and the 4th card, the bottom card of the packet, is face up.

2. Hold the packet in a right hand Biddle Grip.

Use the left thumb to pull the top card into your left hand.

3. Use the left thumb to pull the next card into your left hand but hold a left little finger break under it.

4.Take the next two cards as one card and at the same time steal back the broken card.

5. Take the last card.

It's a bit difficult to explain this without pictures. Back in the mid 70s, I worked out ways of doing all of the usual counts (Elmsley, Jordan, Hamman, 2-as-4, etc.) from exactly the same grip with no push-offs, etc.

I published one little bit of this in Pabular, but I don't remember where.
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Postby Guest » 05/23/07 04:04 PM

Going along the same track as Bob above, for the Ghost count start by pushing the bottom card in (to your right) slightly using your left fingertips of your palm up hand as you use your left thumb to pull off the top card. This sets you up to easily take all but the bottom card at the count of "two". ;)

Postby Pete Biro » 05/23/07 04:29 PM

I would think the side effects would kill its value... after all the order of the cards would change and you would maybe be stuck in a later segment? The EC is so easy to do.... :cool:
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Postby Bob Farmer » 05/24/07 01:47 PM

Here is an alternative to Jonathan's suggestion that requires no get ready:

The card to be hidden is third from the top.

On the count of 1 take the BOTTOM card, 2, the top card, etc.
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Postby Guest » 05/24/07 02:19 PM

I suggest the small get-ready as it saves some fuss trying to reach all the way over and peel off all but the bottom card on the count of two.

Bob, ordinarily in the Ghost Count one does the work on the count of "two". I'm confused as to what happens next in the count process you described. The top and bottom cards were peeled off the right hand packet leaving a third surface showing and whatever hidden underneath. What happens next?

Postby Ian Kendall » 05/24/07 02:51 PM

I can't see the problem with taking the cards on the second beat? Why are you having problems?

On second thoughts it may be the grip you are using with the hand that is holding the packet. Done properly the take is automatic (and by properly, I mean my way, of course...)

If you are having problems with the counts, and can stand a bit of blatant self promotion, I made a 30 minute lesson on the Ghost and Jordan counts from a dealing grip, as well as fingertip grips, for the Virtual Sessions. Start with the basics (and that's two cards, not three) and then work up.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Bob Farmer » 05/24/07 04:26 PM

Jonathan -- First check out my description of Hamman Count in Pabular pg. 420, Vol. 3 #10. This explains some key points on grips, etc.

1. Card is third from top. Packet in Biddle Grip (actually not -- it's in the grip I describe in Pabular -- but the Biddle Grip will work).

Pull off BOTTOM card into other hand on "1."

2. Pull off top card on "2" over and onto first card but hold a break under it.

3. Take next two cards as one (they're squared) on "3" and as you do steal second card.

4. Take last card on "4."
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Postby Guest » 05/24/07 05:45 PM

Thanks Bob, if I understand you correctly this would be a modified Hamman count doing the work on "three" but taking only one card so to count as four.

Along those lines one might take both cards in a two for two swap and just drop the double card down as one on the count of four. (but that would not reset the count ;) )

Again, thanks

Postby Guest » 05/24/07 07:48 PM

No offense, but if you need some kind of "help" to successfully complete an Elmsley count, you suck.

Postby Guest » 05/24/07 07:58 PM

sorry--crimsonking, I love you, pal...but talk about "gilding the lily"

Postby Richard Perrin » 05/24/07 10:58 PM

Hey Crim,

Check the DVD "Basic Card Technique" and guess who this person in that DVD? Yep, it's our Genii Editor, Richard Kaufman! E.C. And J.C. are in it.

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