annivesary waltz

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annivesary waltz

Postby Guest » November 4th, 2003, 2:00 am

I've read the instructions on doing this illusion, I've bought the Doc Eason video where he goes through how its done, but I still don't get it....... Any suggestions (other than try another trick)

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 4th, 2003, 5:11 am

Well, can you be more specific about what you're not understanding?

The original version of this plot (Forgery, by Wesley James) is one of my favorite effects.

-Jim

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 4th, 2003, 7:36 am

The original version of the plot is an effect devised by myself, David Arthur, and Gene Maze called "Fusion." It originally appeared in CardWorks in 1981.
The Wesley James thing was publisher later.
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Guest » November 4th, 2003, 7:43 am

Why do I get a feeling that something is about to explode?

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 4th, 2003, 7:50 am

Not really: this is old news. One of those little battles I keep fighting, since "Fusion" is one of my better items.
The other one is "Inversion." I had an almost identical item in CardMagic in 1979 called "The World's Fastest Reverse, where the entire deck visibly turned around. The one thing that Jim Lewis added--and it is a BIG improvement--is the outjogged card. The plot, however is still the same.
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Pete Biro » November 4th, 2003, 10:48 am

Richard: Can you give us a brief description of the effect? (Fusion)
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 4th, 2003, 10:58 am

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
The original version of the plot is an effect devised by myself, David Arthur, and Gene Maze called "Fusion." It originally appeared in CardWorks in 1981.
The Wesley James thing was publisher later.
Though it appeared in print later (first mention of it was in Peter Samelson's book, Theatrical Close-up, which came out in 1984), Wes developed his effect in the late 1960's. He was performing it regularly at the Magic Townehouse in the early 70's, so any magicians around at that time can verify that fact. It wasn't until after he retired that he actually released the effect, and it appeared in his "Stop Fooling Us!" lecture notes, which came out in the mid-late 80's, IIRC.

Kaboom.

-Jim

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Guest » November 4th, 2003, 11:44 am

Based on discussions with Wesley what Jim said is accurate. I have no reason not to believe that Wesley developed the idea and presentation/handling well before 1981. Wesley is very passionate about proper crediting and I doubt he would misrepresent his own contribution or creations because of this passion. I highly recommend his notes 'Stop Fooling Us'. Now that doesn't mean that I doubt Richard and crew didn't come up with a simular handling in 1981 without knowledge of Wes' work.
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 4th, 2003, 12:05 pm

Unfortunately, Wesley has never produced any solid evidence of his claim. I can say I created all kinds of things and and never published them. What the heck does that amount to? Where are all the magicians who saw him do it? What exactly did he do? How good are anecdotal recollections of a card trick seen 30 years ago?
Wesley never mentioned that he claimed the idea was his until years AFTER I'd published it. Too late.
This is not the only time Wesley has published something that has been questioned: people were surprised when Karl Fulves published the Cannibal Cards with Wesley's name on it. It is generally thought to be Matt Corin's. Ditto for LSD Aces, where the sudden reversal of the Ace packet at the end was established by Roger Smith at an earlier date.
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Ian Kendall » November 4th, 2003, 12:57 pm

Coincidently I was reading through Epilogue on the weekend where Fulves explains in detail how the Cannibal Cards ended up being credited to James and not Corin...

I'm not defending anyone, just making an observation...

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 4th, 2003, 1:00 pm

The effect was shown to Vernon as early as 1968. Unfortunately, he's not around anymore. Peter Samelson states in his book that Wes was performing the effect in the early 70's. I imagine Geoff Latta or Jon Townsend might know something, though I can't say for certain.

I also feel the need to state that the idea that Wes would even try to claim someone else's idea as his own is completely ridiculous. Anyone who knows Wes will know how meticulous he is about proper crediting, whether it is one of his own creations or that of someone else.

-Jim

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 4th, 2003, 1:08 pm

I'd just like to make a quick apology to web_jefe for hijacking this thread and taking it on its current tangent. I'm still willing to help with any difficulties you're having, if I can!

-Jim

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 4th, 2003, 3:21 pm

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
people were surprised when Karl Fulves published the Cannibal Cards with Wesley's name on it. It is generally thought to be Matt Corin's.
It was incorrectly thought to be Matt Corin's. Wes had perfomed the routine for Matt, David Roth and Pete Biro sometime in the mid-70's. Check out Wes's "Stop Fooling Us!" notes or the Fulves reference for the details on the history of this effect.

Ditto for LSD Aces, where the sudden reversal of the Ace packet at the end was established by Roger Smith at an earlier date.
Wes acknowledges Roger Smith's effect in his Stop Fooling Us! notes, though he was unaware of the it at the time he created LSD Aces.

-Jim

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Guest » November 4th, 2003, 3:38 pm

Everything Jim said is correct as far as I can determine, down to the specific years. Wes didn't like to share with others his professional act, that is why it wasn't published prior his notes. After retiring from performing Wes did some lectures and sharing his idea's with the run-amokers like me.

Richard, again, I don't doubt that you may believe that it is original with you, and it very well may have been an original idea to you and your group of amigo's and no one is saying you stole anything from anyone. The fact simply is that Wes was performing it some 13 plus years prior to your coming up with it. That's the way it goes sometimes. Doesn't mean you were any less creative, just that you had to be that creative at age 5 or 6 to have beaten Wes to being first to do it.
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Pete Biro » November 4th, 2003, 4:18 pm

Wish I had a better memory for this. I do know that Matt and I worked out the Cannibal Card "presentation" on a train in England. That part of it was 99-pecent Matt's.

Of course the real creator was Lin Searles.
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Tabman » November 5th, 2003, 10:09 am

pete
thanks for sending me the link to genii. also happy to see lots of familiar faces from the old magic!bbs days on here. i decided to dive into this thread because its the tenth anniversary of the recording studio and my departure from the magic scene. my son moved to colorado and left me the studio which ive been running since then. i will have to put a link to the magic! archives on the net. is frog around??? burton the bizarre??? glad to see everyone. :)

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Pete Biro » November 5th, 2003, 3:53 pm

Have not seen hide nor hair of Frog or Burton either... welcome aboard... Tabman :cool: :cool: :cool:
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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Tabman » November 5th, 2003, 6:06 pm

thanks pete. you were the reason i showed up at MAGIC! too after i read about it in genii. that was back in the 1980s sometime. this forum that rk has put together is very nice. the last time i talked to burton the bizarre he had built a complex of five geodesic domes up at around 10,000 feet on the continental divide in colorado. i tried to visit him a few years ago and finally got to talk with him on the phone. last time i heard from frog he was headed to the castle cuz i think nathan was performing.

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby BlueEyed Videot » November 6th, 2003, 11:11 am

Well Tabman, I still have my "Crabb for Lunch" button...

... I wonder what became of that "Houdini" postcard that was left in the filing card box...

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Tabman » November 6th, 2003, 11:58 am

you know, i was thinking about that very same event just recently. i bet someone put it in their pocket and kept it. i suspect it will show up at a christies auction someday. at that point i guess ill have to come clean or just keep my mouth shut and make a few more!! :cool:

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2003, 1:21 pm

...and after all these talks...

Poor web_jefe still doesn't get it!

:D :D :D :D :D

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2003, 1:54 pm

Did we ever determine what he didn't get? It's a pretty straight forward routine so I'm sure we could get him over the hurdle.
Steve V <---has many hurdles before him

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Re: annivesary waltz

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 6th, 2003, 2:05 pm

Nope -- I think we scared him away. Like I said earlier, though, I'm still willing to help with anything if he needs it.

-Jim


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