doves: naughty? or nice?

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Postby Guest » 11/20/02 06:22 PM

Since I am 16 years old, I cannot get and animals without my parents permission. My mom is under the impression that the are loud, smelly, dirty, and too expensive to keep. Is any of this true?
Thanks for your help,
Joe
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/20/02 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Joseph Nicholas:
...I am 16 years old, I cannot get and (keep) animals without my parents permission
Pets are both a joy and chore. When let to fly, a dove will flap its way right into a window. Not the brightest of birds.

While docile they are also fragile. In general, one must exercise great care with one's animals when travelling.
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/20/02 07:24 PM

Too many magicians already produce doves. Put on your thinking cap and produce something more fitting for your age/look, style.

And, be YOURSELF, not Copperfield, Blaine or Burton...

Produce Ice Cream Cones instead?

Think about it and let us know ... OK ???

Success to you...

:genii:
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Postby Kendrix » 11/22/02 08:51 PM

The husbandry of doves is a very time consuming job. They do tend to produce a lot of droppings. They have to have clean fresh food and water daily to thrive. If your mother is not on your side, it is better that you wait.
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Postby Guest » 11/23/02 09:48 PM

I think performers should have to get licenses to use animals in an act. I use a rabbit in my kid's show and would be happy to follow such guidelines.

At the last convention I went to to I saw two dropped rabbits, a duck set fire to and a dove lose half of its tail feathers from stress.

I have also had a dove harness checked out by the RSPCA who believed it was cruel.

Therefore, I wouldn't get doves at all until you know exactly how doves like to be treated and until you can commit to them (as well as the mess)
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/23/02 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Nicholas J. Johnson:
I think performers should have to get licenses to use animals in an act
I wish I could agree with you. I can't.
The animals are property. Using them at all is cruel. Just the health issues from travelling, concealment (air etc) and stress in performance make it so.

I would prefer magicians learn to use parots instead of doves, and dogs/cats instead of rabbits. These are socialized animals that are more comfortable around people.

Excuse me, do you have a license to palm a coin? Is that a registered stripper deck. You see where this line of legislation ends.

peace
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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 12:21 AM

A cat would like being a box more then a rabbit!?!

I had the same concerns as you about air, stress etc. and so I had my rabbit and the production method i use checked out by a vet, animal trainer and the RSPCA who assured me that, if handled regularly from a young age, a rabbit can become just as socialized as a cat.

My current rabbit (mini dwarf lop) loves the box I use and loves performing. My previous rabbit didn't and so became a pet.

Some animals can be used in performance if treated correctly. HOWEVER, they must ALWAYS come first.


Excuse me, do you have a license to palm a coin? Is that a registered stripper deck. You see where this line of legislation ends.
I don't understand your point. Regulating the treatment of animals by performers will lead to registering stripper decks?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/24/02 01:54 AM

Originally posted by Nicholas J. Johnson:
Regulating the treatment of animals by performers will lead to registering stripper decks?
Yes. Here in America we are having a flirtation with legislation and monitoring again. Seems folks have not learned that you can't legislate morality or teach virtue. The slipery slope does lead to very awkward situations.

I have some concerns about the use of animals in acts in general. I have met a few performers who have taken the care to have animals that participate in their acts. One had a parakeet he could do sleight of hand with. It would also calmly sit on his sholder as he walked around. Wonderful and rare.

Magicians also have a history with birds since the vanishing bird cage was invented. The ASPCA was none too happy with the original handling and fined the performer.
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Postby Kendrix » 11/24/02 01:37 PM

I have imported and raised parrots, [censored]'s, macaws since the early 70's. They are extremely intelligent. The power of their beak is tremendous and can exert 1,000's of lbs of pressure on a magician's most valuble asset, his or her's fingers and hands. Even a baby bird raised from the egg and imprinted with humans can be difficult to manage at certain times. I, personally, would think twice before using them in a magic act. Robert Blake always complained that "Fred" went out of his way to bite him. Of course, maybe the bird knew something we didn't know.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/25/02 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Kendrix:
Of course, maybe the bird knew something we didn't know.
Yes perhaps that bird was the original psychic hotline attendant. :D

I do like the visual aspect of magic with animals. It is their care in handling and transport I wished to caution the thread starter about.

Funny, the one parakeet I was mentioning was tame with strangers. The owner put the animal on my finger and I walked around a college campus with it on my hand/sholder/pocket for an hour or so. It had no problem when I handled it.

I KNEW BETTER THAN TO TRY SLEEVING OR LAPPING IT. The climbing habit does make for a nice imp pass handling. That kind of tacit knowlege and respect for animals is probably especially important when working with other parrots.
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Postby Jeff Haas » 11/25/02 01:49 AM

Here's another angle on this...if you're 16 years old, most of the shows you'll get are probably going to be kid's birthday shows in your local neighborhood.

Use a puppet instead of an animal. Not only do you avoid all the issues with care, humane treatment, etc. but you are now adding a character to your show -- one that can have a distinct personality, be funny, and help you do a trick or two.
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Postby Guest » 11/25/02 09:15 AM

Dirty, disgusting, filthy, lice-ridden birds. Oh wait, those are pigeons. Doves can get noisy. Do you have the room for birds? Will you find someone to take care of them when you're out of town? Do you have money for a vet for regular check-ups? Amos Levkovitch's birds seem to love him and seem to be the best treated birds I've ever seen by a magician. You should seek out Amos' advice (his lecture is truely eye-opening and inspirational). Check out Amos's website: http://www.amosmagic.com/ . On the site, you can purchase some of his notes/videos where you can learn more about whether doves are for you.

Harley
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Postby Guest » 12/05/02 06:54 PM

Over the years in my Magic Show,,I travelled with a baby elephant, 2 different Cheetahs, a Chimp. Many Macaws, and [censored],,including for a while the original Fred the [censored] ,,more doves than I can count,Ducks, Chickens,,and Rabbits, including one who was with us for over 8 years,,I bought him from a slaughter house, saved his a--,and put him in show business..my advise for the 16 year old,,,if you must have a pair of doves,,,make sure you have the true love of animals,,they are not toys,,they demand and decerve your attention, and the best care,,,they are all Gods beautiful creatures...think it over before you make a big mistake. Stan Kramien,magician, and lover of all animals
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/06/02 11:23 PM

Kramien, welcome aboard. Don't be a stranger. You have the experience and advice many here would be thrilled to hear about, including ME. :rolleyes:
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/07/02 06:33 PM

Originally posted by KRAMIEN:
...I travelled with a baby elephant
How intellegent and social was the elephant? Could it be let loose? ...behave like a dog or cat?
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Postby Guest » 12/23/02 12:34 AM

I have been working with my doves for 8 years now. I love my birds as my pets and they have contributed greatly to my success. On the flip side, however, they are a constant commitment and can be a burden at times. I had to tailor my lifestyle to facilitate their care. As I graduated high school and looked to colleges and universities, I had to take into account that dorm rooms were not suited to a flock of eleven doves. They are loud and talk to each other throughout the day and night. They produce a never ending stream of feathers, dander (the dust they produce to clean and preen their feathers), feces, and eggs. Each bird has it's own individual needs, personality, and talents that must be carefully attended to. If you plan on performing with them, as this thread alludes to, expect daily rehearsal and conditioning with emphasis on having proper space to rehearse. Infinite patience is necessary as the birds do not speak your language or always do what you want. Different techniques and demands require varying levels of attention and time commitment. As a guide, I find it takes about two years to train a dove for consistent fly-backs. I have many personal beliefs concerning the birds, one being that no flight feathers should ever be cut to inhibit the bird. Your bird HAS to know you and be comfortable with you.

Travel is an entirely other issue. As I have performed my act across the MidWest, Orlando, New Orleans, Las Vegas, Toronto, Nebraska, and Japan, I have discovered the immense stress and laborious expense and planning that must be done to facilitate the safe travel of your co-performers.

If you are considering dove work, beware. It is more complex to do right than you EVER imagined. If you can find any other vehicle for your magic, do that instead.

In Magic,

Phillip Kaiser

Manipulating Reality
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Postby Dale Shrimpton » 12/23/02 05:51 AM

I dont keep Rabbits anymore , as i now live in an upstairs flat, with no garden and i think it would br cruel to keep them confined all day.
When i did keep them, they were, too me ,my friends, and buiseness partners.
The secret of having animals in the act, and this goes for any animal, is trust. This trust can only be gained if you give up as much time as humanly possible in caring for that animal.
if you are unsure that you can spare the time, the only advice i would part with, is dont keep animals.
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