Let's talk Silk to Egg..

Discuss your favorite platform magic and illusions.

Postby Guest » 11/08/06 09:19 AM

sorry if this has been done too much, but I need to bring this point up:

My understanding of the basic effect is:

A silk is pushed into the hand, where it changes to an egg, but then the silk is shown to have actually travelled to the pocket instead..

Does this seems strange to anyone else but me?
If the silk changes into an egg, then why would it appear in the pocket?? This is confusion to me, & I bet the audience. So, instead, the way I prefer to do it is:

Push the silk into the fist where it change into the egg (apparently). & that's the whole effect..This makes much more sense to me, thereby, simplifying the effect, which can easily be explained to friends of eye-witnesess. Then, of course- switch the egg for the explanation.

;)
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Postby Guest » 11/08/06 09:47 AM

Doesn't seem strange at all. It's a trick, a simple trick, one that fools nobody... until the end.

Watch Whit Haydn perform "The Red Silk Mystery" on his website at www.whithaydn.com and see if it changes your mind.
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/08/06 10:41 AM

Steveowens... have you tried both versions on your audiences? If so, what differences in reactions did you find?
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Postby Guest » 11/08/06 11:11 AM

Originally posted by steveowens:
...
A silk is pushed into the hand, where it changes to an egg, but then the silk is shown to have actually travelled to the pocket ... ;)
You are bringing up a few questions, and some of them are insightful.

Let's address the most basic plot question:

Why does the handkerchief wind up in the pocket?

Good catch. If you are asking them to believe what you explain to them later, you SHOULD have a different colored handkerchief for the repeat as the first one should be in the egg.

Note to the manufacturers... perhaps an MP3 player or cell phone or camera would be more fun than an egg for both this and the eggbag.

:)
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Postby Andrew Martin Portala » 11/08/06 11:22 AM

Do what I do.When performing show the egg (The real one) put the egg in the pocket first.
I think I got that of Sid Lorrine Patter Books.
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Postby Guest » 11/08/06 11:22 AM

It seems as though the "to the pocket" presentation is simply a way to simplify the handling, so you have an excuse to go to the pocket for the egg switch.........its OK, but not the best solution.

I do it pretty close to the way I saw it as a kid.......the silk changes to an egg......with the help of a talisman or magic coin......which provides the excuse to go to the pocket for the switch.

I agree, its best to do one effect at a time or neither effect gets the focus and emphasis it needs to make an impact.

For instance, instead of finishing Triumph with a color changing deck, get the most effect you can from the Triumph effect first.......milk it for all its worth........the cards right themselves and the selected card is excluded. Design your presentation to get the most out of this.....then, later, move onto your next trick.......If you want to do a color changing deck, do a routine that is designed to build that effect........in Vernon's color changing deck routine, the cards change one at a time, THEN the whole deck changes......

This way you have two, very strong, clear effects.......otherwise, the sudden shift to a color changing deck from Triumph, while surprising.......is incongruous and confusing plot-wise.

Seperately, these are two very good, distinct effects.

The Silk to Egg is a great, simple effect........to be effective, the technique and procedure need to pared to a minimum to match.
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Postby Guest » 11/08/06 12:43 PM

The discussion so far is about the 'Sucker Silk to Egg' which is the reason for the pocket ruse and fake eggslanation (sorry)which sets up the "sting" at the end when the supposedly hollow egg is broken and shown as real.

The 'Silk to Egg' would be just that - no bluff moves or phony explanations. It depends on your requirements for the audience's response or your performing persona which, if any, of the endings you use.

I personally do a non-speaking routine that blends both effects - changing the silk to an egg, accidentally exposing the 'hole' which I notice, peel off and discard, then break the egg.

--Mitch Dutton
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Postby Guest » 11/08/06 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Asrah:
The discussion so far is about the 'Sucker Silk to Egg' which is the reason for the pocket ruse and ...
How does the pocket ruse fit into the routine?
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Postby Guest » 11/08/06 05:12 PM

You must come up with some explanation of why you put your hand in your pocket. John Carney, above, mentioned the 'talisman' such as a coin, or in the Tarbell version, a key. This is the ruse. It could be as simple as pulling a duplicate silk from the pocket, as Whit Haydn does in the clip linked to above. --Mitch Dutton
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Postby Guest » 11/08/06 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Asrah:
You must come up with some explanation of why you put your hand in your pocket.... --Mitch Dutton
Sorry Mitch, I was unclear.

Why does the handkerchief wind up in your pocket?
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Postby Guest » 11/09/06 07:50 AM

Do what I do.When performing show the egg (The real one) put the egg in the pocket first.
I think I got that of Sid Lorrine Patter Books.
I thought about this idea too, but I thought it may have lessened the climax a little..But, this way sure makes MUCH more sense than the other version. This way there is an actual transposition happening.

Lance Burton (i think ) just switches the eggs in his pocket when explaining the setup. Another option is to have the real egg loaded in your sleeve. Well, I will continue to do it without using 2 silk..

(there are many ways of switching the egg)
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Postby Guest » 11/09/06 08:04 AM

Originally posted by steveowens:
...(there are many ways of switching the egg)
This is NOT about methodology.

You have a handkerchief. You tuck it into your hand. You open your and and show an egg.

Okay... what happens next?
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Postby Guest » 11/09/06 09:31 AM

I still am in love with the Egg and the gimmick supplied by Viking Magic's version. It is the Rolls Royce apparatus.

PSIncerely Yours,
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/09/06 10:20 AM

It doesn't matter if you use one or two or MORE... it is all in how the effect routines, and fools, not to mention entertains.
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Postby Guest » 11/09/06 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
It doesn't matter if you use one or two or MORE... it is all in how the effect routines, and fools, not to mention entertains.
Pete, help me out here... after you show the change to the egg, what happens next?
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Postby Guest » 11/09/06 03:28 PM

After the silk changes to an egg comes the fake explanation. You tell the spectators that they are a wonderful audience, you really shouldn't, but just this once will show them how a trick is done.

Then you go through the motions, "explaining" what you do and how you do it, blah blah blah... the payoff at the end is you break the supposedly fake egg and show it as real, thus 'stinging' the 'suckered' audience.

Play it light and don't make the folks feel like fools. If you need further clarification, read Tarbell or the Mark Wilson course, or any of a number of print references. --Asrah
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Postby Guest » 11/09/06 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Asrah:
After the silk changes to an egg comes the fake explanation. You tell the spectators that they are a wonderful audience, you really shouldn't, but just this once will show them how a trick is done. ...
When (or why) do you show the hank went to your pocket. If you really used an egg with a hole, it would be inside the egg.

Puzzled in NY
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Postby Guest » 11/09/06 11:45 PM

When (or why) do you show the hank went to your pocket. If you really used an egg with a hole, it would be inside the egg.
Exactly my original point! Can this be answered?
hmmmmm
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 01:14 AM

maybe I'm a dumb cluck (who does greatly appreciate nostalgia), but how would a silk hanky or perhaps even an egg naturally come into play nowadays?
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 05:49 AM

Originally posted by kevin_fortin:
maybe I'm a dumb cluck (who does greatly appreciate nostalgia), but how would a silk hanky or perhaps even an egg naturally come into play nowadays?
Tell you what; If we get a satisfactory answer to the question about how or why the hank is shown in the pocket after the magician changes it into an egg I WILL OFFER some options on how to introduce the props. :)
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Postby Amos McCormick » 11/10/06 07:09 AM

The explanation is simply "Suddenly the scarf is gone, and in its place is an egg." In Whit's presentation, the scarf doesn't change into an egg, it is just replaced by an egg.

Eggs are inherently funny, given the proper situation, just like canteloupes and underwear. MP3 players are not funny. Cell phones are simply aggravating.
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Amos McCormick:
The explanation is simply "Suddenly the scarf is gone, and in its place is an egg." In Whit's presentation, the scarf doesn't change into an egg, it is just replaced by an egg.

Eggs are inherently funny, given the proper situation, just like canteloupes and underwear. MP3 players are not funny. Cellphones are simply aggravating.
That's probably a great setup for a triple transposition (remember the cannon ball, the candlestick and the hank?) using a cantaloupe, some underware and a cell phone.

Digressions aside, is the appearance of the egg a deliberate transformation, part of a transposition or something else?
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 09:06 AM

I recall reading somewhere many, many, years ago that the original version of this effect, was where an Egg was shown, then placed into your pocket. you then display a silk, which is tucked into the hand. This then transposes with the silk.
This is very much along the lines of Whit's routne, ( which i adore beyond belief by the way)
I also remember reading that Egg Kling klang,
( which was it's original name i believe) involved a silk stocking , and an egg. Though i may be incorrect somewhere along the line.

Dale
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Dale Shrimpton:
...Egg Kling klang,
( which was it's original name i believe) involved a silk stocking , and an egg. Though i may be incorrect somewhere along the line.

Dale
Excellent! I feel a Freudian slip in the works here.
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 10:10 AM

"seams" so Jonathon
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Dale Shrimpton:
"seams" so Jonathon
Remember "L'eggs" ?

;)
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 10:29 AM

In the Ammar version of this you change the silk into an egg then show the silk has travelled to your pocket. This is the inital phase which sets them up for the sucker explaination. So the effect is supposed to be you show a silk, poke it into your left hand, it becomes an egg, and the silk has flown to your pocket. You then show how it was done.

Incidently, Ammar has a cool bit at the end where he peels the hole off the egg and sticks it on his forehead. He then breaks the egg showing it's real and apparently pulls the silk from the hole stuck on his forehead.
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Postby Guest » 11/10/06 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Jim Coles:
... you change the silk into an egg then show the silk has travelled to your pocket. ...
See the cognitive disconnect in that? If you change a hank into an egg... the hank IS the egg.

What's the effect? A transformation? A transposition?

I like the bit where you stick the hole up top and pull out the silk. That is very cartoony.
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Postby Guest » 11/11/06 04:08 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jim Coles:
... you change the silk into an egg then show the silk has travelled to your pocket. ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See the cognitive disconnect in that? If you change a hank into an egg... the hank IS the egg.

What's the effect? A transformation? A transposition?
Thank you Jonathan Townsend! I think there may be only 2 people on this thread that are on the same wavelength. Let me also re-state the obvious:

If an object "changes" into another object, then HOW can the original object have magically traveled to another totolly different location?!
This is confusion; it makes no sense. Who performs the routine this way is irrelevent. But, you will get away with the confusion because the audience sees a fake egg change into a real egg. That is the effect the audience remembers.

So, I only change the silk into the egg in the begining, no 2 silks needed to confuse anyone who might be listening extra close. Then, upon my simple explanation of how the effect works, demonstrating the same exact actions as before (tucking the silk into the egg HIDDEN in my hand as I first did)I display the hole & the change to a real egg occurs.

Simple, straight forward effect! Taddaaaaaa

ps. I hope we all can think about the routines we do & why we do them. I notice that just because something has been done a certain way for a long time, doesn't mean it's the best way to do it, or it can't be improved upon. Happy magical thinking all..

;)
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Postby Guest » 11/11/06 12:02 PM

Steve,

Although I have only been doing this trick professionally a little over thirty-five years, I find adult audiences still follow along just fine.

Since the whole thing is just a setup for a sucker trick, to me there comes a time when dealing with a silk that has vanished is found elsewhere but an egg is found where the silk was expected to be is simply "majoring in the minors".

I'm a paid entertainer. The real trick is that the egg is a real egg. Everything else is just by-play. (The silk does not reappear after the real egg is cracked. The trick is over!)

Actually, in my act the silk never reappears anywhere except in the sucker egg. But that is because exposing the "prop" egg is the key to the trick. This is really a trick about a "prop" egg becoming a real egg. Ask the audience!

A reality of show business is that magic is just one of many vehicles. The business is about entertaining audiencs.

Is the real concern over exposure of the hollow fake? (Do you own a fake for this?)

(By the way, this was a total sell-out for us last week at the Unconventional Convention in Kentucky. We only sell the props: a very good fake egg in white or brown with two 18" silks and matching stickers. There are no instructions and we don't demonstrate it! Pros use it!)

This is an egg trick. As the magicians' silk importer, I wish it were just a silk trick. Silks don't make this trick. Here they are supplies like cards, rope, flash paper and mouth coils. This is really about a fake egg becoming a real egg.

When in doubt, ask the audience. They pay the tab.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
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Postby Guest » 11/11/06 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Magic By Sander - Bob Sanders:
Steve,
...Actually, in my act the silk never reappears anywhere except in the sucker egg. But that is because exposing the "prop" egg is the key to the trick. This is really a trick about a "prop" egg becoming a real egg. Ask the audience!...
Thanks Bob. What happens next after the silk seems to change into the egg in your routine?

And yes I hope we all agree that the meat of the magic for the audience is when the fake egg becomes the real egg.
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Postby Guest » 11/11/06 07:32 PM

Hello Jonathan,

In answer to your question:

"What happens next after the silk seems to change into the egg in your routine?"

1. The fake eggs I use are are very convincing. They are not plastic toys.

2. After the egg is certainly shown to be a real egg, it is turned around to show a hole and the silk in the egg.

3. The silk (18") is removed from the egg and the fake exposed. (The silk NEVER goes to my pocket.)

4. Then I go into "let me teach you a trick".

5. The fake is shown hole up in my left hand and the silk is stuffed back into the egg. (Hands do not go to the pockets during this either.)

6. When the egg is shown again all looks the same . However, when the egg is turned around the color sticker is removed. There is no hole. And the egg is cracked into a clear glass. (The silk is GONE! And NO Mention is made of that!)

Just as a technical note: for me, going to the pocket to get the real egg is optional and very rarely used. In my routine (using any method) the silk and fake egg stay in full view until the fake egg is proven real.

Yep! It's an egg trick!

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
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Postby Guest » 11/12/06 06:25 AM

The real trick is that the egg is a real egg. Everything else is just by-play. (The silk does not reappear after the real egg is cracked. The trick is over!)

Actually, in my act the silk never reappears anywhere except in the sucker egg. But that is because exposing the "prop" egg is the key to the trick. This is really a trick about a "prop" egg becoming a real egg. Ask the audience!
I just got done saying exactly this, Bob. If you read my previous post carefully, this will be apparent.
Much like the rising card effect, where it's not a card trick, it's an animation effect.. It sounds as thought we both do the routine in very similar fashions..
My point about starting this thread is to bring up the issue of the 2nd silk not being needed, where many times it makes very little sense to use it at all. Why not simplify?

That is all..
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/12/06 09:35 AM

One of the top acts in vaudeville featured the silk to egg, using an American Flag... he used two flags and it made SENSE in his routine, I was "given" the act, word-for-word via the performer, his patron, then to me... and like I say, in the context of the ROUTINE and talking points it makes sense two use the second flag.

My point is... it doesn't matter, if it fools and ENTERTAINS.
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Postby Guest » 11/12/06 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Dale Shrimpton:
I also remember reading that Egg Kling klang,
( which was it's original name i believe) involved a silk stocking , and an egg. Though i may be incorrect somewhere along the line.

Dale
Actually the effect of Kling Klang is that of a silk and an egg transposing in a covered glass on the table. The egg is placed in the glass and covered with a cloth. A silk is shown and poked into the left hand. You open the hand to show an egg and uncover the glass to reveal the silk inside.

It seems likely that the initial transposition of silk and egg in the sucker trick, the pseudo trick that sets you up for the fake explanation, was derived from the transposition in this effect -- especially considering the methodology, and the very real possibility that the fake egg was sometimes inadvertently exposed. I also seem to remember in magic catalogs when I was a kid reading about an effect called Kling Klang Kling, or something like that, in which the egg and silk transposed as in Kling Klang, then the gimmick was "accidently" exposed, and finally changed into a real egg which was broken into the glass.

No matter how you do it I agree with Pete Biro that as long as it's clear and entertains you're good.
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Postby Guest » 11/12/06 10:50 AM

Originally posted by steveowens:
My point about starting this thread is to bring up the issue of the 2nd silk not being needed, where many times it makes very little sense to use it at all. Why not simplify?

That is all.. [/b]
Steve,

What happens if we agree? I never use but one silk in the trick. (It goes back into the fake egg and I swap the whole works when I crack the real egg. The silk does not reappear.)

The props we sell for the trick have two Different Colored silks and stickers in them so pros can repeat the trick in a later show that day in a different color. (It is for the days when row three doesn't change show after show! If you work theme parks or trade shows, you've been there.)

Bob

PS --- Nothing goes back to a pocket.
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Postby Guest » 11/13/06 04:34 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Originally posted by Dale Shrimpton:
[b] "seams" so Jonathon
Remember "L'eggs" ?

;) [/b]
how ever you do it, It's un oeuf ly good trick.
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Postby Guest » 11/13/06 04:41 AM

This is no yolking matter.

Dave
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Postby Guest » 11/13/06 05:51 AM

you crack me up.

(I shell have to stop this)
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Postby Guest » 11/13/06 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Magic By Sander - Bob Sanders:..The props we sell for the trick...
Any chance of finding a good laytex egg that bounces?
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