Riffle Culling

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 09/08/03 06:29 AM

Hi Folks

Can anyone point me to a good source for learning more about this technique please?

Thanks a lot

D
Guest
 

Postby mathieu » 09/09/03 12:13 PM

Hello,
In Marlo's works, particularly in the Riffle Shuffle Trilogy, and scattered in many of his works. Check also the Riffle Shuffle Trilogy by Fulves but since I have not these last books, it's only a suggestion.
Mathieu
mathieu
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 07/01/08 05:04 PM

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 09/09/03 02:42 PM

Yes, the Riffle Shuffle stuff is scattered.

Back in the good, old days, the strongest incentive to learn a false riffle shuffle was to perform versions of Triumph" and Dai Vernon's version in Stars of Magic (1946) was easy to learn and master. I was familiar with Charlie Millers Strip-Out False Shuffle in Expert Card Technique (1940), which was published six years prior to Stars of Magic. You can check this out, but nothing is really mentioned about culling or block-transfer work. Dai Vernons More Inner Secrets of Card Magic didnt come out until 1960, a year after Marlo released Riffle Shuffle Systems. The other explanations of false riffle shuffles I had skimmed were Hilliards Greater Magic, Buckleys Card Control, Simons Effective Card Magic, and The Card Magic of Le Paul. I fiddled with Le Pauls description, but I was satisfied with Vernons easy version. In discussing shuffles with other cardmen, I was told that the key principle and dynamic in riffle shuffle work is the culling and block transferring. As others have suggested, locate, borrow, study, or buy Marlo's trilogy. Only the first one, RIFFLE SHUFFLE SYSTEMS, is easily available. (Check my Website: www.JonRacherbaumer.com). THe other two are sometimes available through used book dealers. I plan to release them this year.

As also mentioned, Karl Fulves manuscripts on Riffle Shuffle technique are worth getting: Riffle Shuffle Technique - Part One Two (Epilogue - 1975), Riffle Shuffle Technique: Preliminary Notes On Part One (undated), Riffle Shuffle Technique: Preliminary Notes on Part Two (1973), Riffle Shuffle Technique - Part III(1984), Faro & Riffle Technique (1974), Riffle Shuffle Set-Ups (1973), Setting Up Exercises (1995), and Riffle Shuffle Controls Part Two: Blocking Off (1996).

I particularly liked the last one.

I hope this helps...

Onward,

JR
Jon Racherbaumer
 
Posts: 816
Joined: 01/22/08 01:00 PM
Location: New Orleans

Postby Frank Yuen » 09/09/03 03:36 PM

Okay, so how much should I expect to pay to get them?

Frank Yuen
Frank Yuen
 
Posts: 544
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Winfield, IL

Postby Guest » 09/09/03 03:37 PM

...Karl Fulves manuscripts on Riffle Shuffle technique are worth getting: Riffle Shuffle Technique - Part One Two (Epilogue - 1975), Riffle Shuffle Technique: Preliminary Notes On Part One (undated), Riffle Shuffle Technique: Preliminary Notes on Part Two (1973),...
Jon, do you have these manuscripts? I was just wondering what the difference is between Riffle Shuffle Technique Part 2 and Riffle Shuffle Technique Preliminary Notes on Part 2? Also, which one describes the Steven's Control? Thanks
JLock
Guest
 

Postby Michael Close » 09/09/03 06:23 PM

A little known, but excellent source is Thanks to Zarrow by Jerry Sadowitz. This entire manuscript is devoted to culling and stacking with the Zarrow shuffle.

I have no idea where you could get a copy.

M. Close
Michael Close
 
Posts: 342
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas

Postby Guest » 09/09/03 07:21 PM

They've got Thanks to zarrow at Magicbookshop.com.

Noah Levine
Guest
 

Postby Matthew Field » 09/09/03 07:42 PM

The Riffle Shuffle stacking king is, IMHO, Jimmy "Cards" Molinari. You watch this guy do the work and it looks like a camera trick -- I saw his privately issued DVD.

Steve Draun has some excellent work in "Secrets Draun from Underground," and he's a pleasure to watch.

Matt Field
User avatar
Matthew Field
 
Posts: 2450
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hastings, England, UK

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 09/09/03 10:32 PM

Matt is dead on. Molinari is one of maybe a dozen guys that can do Riffle Shuffle stuff that can "pass" anywhere. I think there are many that can adequately do some stuff,as well, but not top-notch execution. Years ago, Diaconis certainly did the stuff. Sadowitz can do it. Forte can surely do it. David Mallek (Malick?)can do it. There are others; however, I've not seen them. I think Draun has chops in this area. Perhaps Ortiz.

The original Marlo treatises are pricey. They originally sold for $50. Check used dealers and e-Bay.

The Fulves stuff is reasonable $25-30 each.

The Sadowitz mss. is tough to find. Check with H & R. It is excellent.

The PDF versions on my Website are inexpensive--free to Premium members. Hardcopies are $65.

Check around...
Perhaps someone will one day write the Master Book or put out a three-volume DVD?

Onward...

www.JonRacherbaumer.com
Jon Racherbaumer
 
Posts: 816
Joined: 01/22/08 01:00 PM
Location: New Orleans

Postby Guest » 09/10/03 06:43 AM

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied to this post - some very detailed responses - thanks. That's plenty of information to be getting on with.

All the best
Derek
Guest
 

Postby John Hopkins » 09/10/03 11:14 AM

In addition to the major works already cited
you might want to take a look at "New Card Control Systems" by Joseph K. Schmidt (Kaufman and Greenberg, publisher).

Also, there is some nice work in the "Gambling Routines" section of "Modus Operandi, the Card Magic of Jack Carpenter" by Stephen Hobbs (Hermentic Press).

John
John Hopkins
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 01/24/08 01:00 PM
Location: Portland, Oregon

Postby Guest » 09/10/03 01:34 PM

Matt Field & Jon:

I'm also an admirer of Jimmy Cards, but isn't his stuff overhand shuffle work? Does that qualify as Riffle Stacking/Culling? Where's the Riffle?

--Randy Campbell
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 09/10/03 01:55 PM

The most accomplishd run-up man that I have ever seen is David Malek (please note: the correct spelling is MALEK).

Mr. Malek can stack as many as 8 or 9 hands without looking at the cards. He does not fake it by using a trick blindfold. He turns his head ninety degrees away from the table, thereby precluding the use of peripheral vision, and relying only on his sense of touch, he arranges to deal the selected hand to any one of nine players.

In addition to smoothness, his run-up is the fastest I have ever seen. Several months ago, David accompanied me on a visit to the home of a retired advantage player (AV, now 87 years old).

I had David demonstrate his remarkable accomplishment and asked AV if it would get the money. AV replied that Malek's work would get by anywhere. AV remarked that David could very well deal hands in any Las Vegas holdem tournament without arousing suspicion, and that David's work was smooth enough to escape detection by surveillance cameras; I agreed.
Guest
 

Postby Matthew Field » 09/10/03 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Randy Campbell:
but isn't his stuff overhand shuffle work?
You're correct, Randy. I got Shuffelitis. Molinari is the Overhand Shuffle Stacking king.

I'll stick with the Steve Draun reference, though.

Matt Field
User avatar
Matthew Field
 
Posts: 2450
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hastings, England, UK

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 09/10/03 03:20 PM

Jimmy Cards is FAST in the Overhand Shuffle department, at least neck-and-neck with David Malek (Thanks, T.G., for the spelling.) But Molinari also does Riffle Shuffle work.

In other Cull Work, check out Tony Picasso.

Onward,

JR
Jon Racherbaumer
 
Posts: 816
Joined: 01/22/08 01:00 PM
Location: New Orleans

Postby Pete Biro » 09/10/03 04:43 PM

When Diaconis was living in NY I used to visit him every time I hit town, and one night he took me out to meet a card playing friend... non magician... and this fellow could build coolers with his riffle shuffles unlike anyone (including Persi) that I had ever seen. :cool:

I would puke when I would see "so called" experts lower their heads and look at the cards as they were being riffled. :mad:
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Guest » 09/11/03 11:46 AM

Haymow (overhand) shuffles are never used in money games or by casino dealers. They may be used in penny ante social games. S.W. Erdnase
(The Expert at the Card Table), writing about the riffle shuffle in 1902 said: "...shuffling cards on the table by springing the ends of two packets into each other, is by far the more prevalent method in use among regular card players." And that was in 1902.

In my post regarding David Malek and his run ups,I clearly stated that David's run up would get by in a holdem tournament. Inasmuch as the overhand shuffle is never used in any casino or money game in the world, obviously, Malek runs up with a riffle shuffle.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 09/12/03 04:01 AM

I thought this thread was supposed to be about riffle culling? The suject seems to have turned towards run ups.
Guest
 

Postby Bob Coyne » 09/12/03 06:47 AM

Karl Fulves manuscripts "Riffle Shuffle Controls Part Two: Blocking Off" and "Riffle Shuffle Methods featuring John Scarne's Shuffle Control" both have good sections on riffle shuffle culling.

Fulves has a bunch of shuffle manuscripts, several of which are listed in the earlier posts. They're all interesting if you're into that sort of thing (I am), but I think these two have the most on riffle shuffle culling.
Bob Coyne
 
Posts: 242
Joined: 01/26/08 01:00 PM
Location: Montclair, NJ

Postby Guest » 09/12/03 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Tony Giorgio:
Haymow (overhand) shuffles are never used in money games or by casino dealers. They may be used in penny ante social games.
Is this true?
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 12/30/03 07:37 AM

Sorry to bring back an old topic. I'm bored at work and reading back through.

Two quick points and then a question. It's not strictly true that the overhand shuffle isn't used in cash games, it is. It's correct to say that the overwhelming majority (if not all) Casino dealers use a closed tabled riffle shuffle. There are many cash games in the UK which are "self dealt" in which all kinds of shuffles are employed not to mention all the private games you may find which can be reasonably high stakes (although you would probably have to work with a partner to beat the cut). I'm unsure about the US though (prepare for a flood of mechanics making their way to the UK!!! :p ).

This is a very small point but with regard to the Holdem tourny example: IMO, anyone with rudimentary riffle stacking ability can stack for a holdem game. It's got to be one of the easiest game structures to stack for (obviously the difficulty of the stack relies on a number of variables but even I can do a reasonable "double duke" holdem demo where my "partner/victim" flops a Queen high straight flush then I reveal that I flopped a Royal. Laymen lap it up). It would be more impressive to stack for a stud or draw game where there are more cards to manage (unless its a heads up game or something, of course). I'm definitely not implying that the people mentioned above couldn't stack for a stud game or draw game (from what's been said they would do it with ease) I'm just pointing out that it's a hell of a lot more impressive to do a basic pat hand draw run up than a basic holdem preflop and flop run up (If you aren't a poker player or familiar with poker terminology, all of this will probably sound like nonsense, sorry).

Ok, to my question: I'm very interested in gambling demos and I'm constantly working on riffle stacking. I have the Ortiz tapes but what other VHS/DVD's (or even short clips available for download online) are out there which may help me? I haven't had much luck in finding any (I probably need google training too).

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 02/16/06 02:49 AM

Does anyone have a source for the Fulves manuscripts ? Are they still in print ?
Guest
 

Postby Matthew Field » 02/16/06 03:48 AM

Most are no longer in print, but the best advice is to send a stamped, self-addressed envelope with your needs to Karl Fulves, P.O. Box 433, Teaneck, NJ 07666. He'll respond.

Matt Field
User avatar
Matthew Field
 
Posts: 2450
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hastings, England, UK

Postby Denis Behr » 02/16/06 04:45 AM

Some of the manuscripts in print can also be found at http://www.magicbookshop.com/
They go in and out of stock there so it is a good idea to check the site from time to time.

Denis
Denis Behr
 
Posts: 276
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Munich

Postby Denis Behr » 02/16/06 07:27 AM

Also Marlo's Magazines Vol.5 and 6 have rather large sections devoted to Riffle Culling .
Denis Behr
 
Posts: 276
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Munich

Postby Guest » 02/16/06 04:24 PM

Thanks for the info guys . :D
Dowser
Guest
 

Postby John Wilson » 02/17/06 01:12 AM

It's not strictly true that the overhand shuffle isn't used in cash games, it is. It's correct to say that the overwhelming majority (if not all) Casino dealers use a closed tabled riffle shuffle. There are many cash games in the UK which are "self dealt" in which all kinds of shuffles are employed not to mention all the private games you may find which can be reasonably high stakes (although you would probably have to work with a partner to beat the cut). I'm unsure about the US though (prepare for a flood of mechanics making their way to the UK!!! ).
I'm sorry, but at least here in the US this is not correct. Any poker game played for even medium stakes will involve the riffle shuffle. If you see an overhand shuffle...you are in a home game, or possibly the worst run cardroom/casino that I've ever heard of. Dealing procedures are very well established in my experience. (i.e. 3 riffles minimum) If someone is allowing sub-par dealing procedures to pass, then they are not being protective of their investment.

IMO, anyone with rudimentary riffle stacking ability can stack for a holdem game.
Not just anyone's riffle-stacking will pass in fast company. A poor riffle-stack has several tells. (i.e. slowing the shuffle down.) Especially now that the poker world has become more card savy these differences would be blatant. While a simple stack of a few cards is easily accomplished...getting away with it in the presence of professional or semi-professional players (or even a serious amateur) is another matter entirely. Getting away with it using an overhand stack is out of the question.
If there is enough money on the table to risk making a move, then the players would certainly be smart enough to be familiar with proper dealing procedures. If they're not...you've found the biggest donkeys in the world and shouldn't even need the guise of the poker game to separate them from their money.
Also, I hope you are already aware of this, but your example of a hand in which one straight flush loses to another is really outlandish. A useful hold 'em run up would be much simpler. A set (three of a kind) is more than sufficient to guarantee an advantage, and requires the stacking of only three cards. While this is easier, it is still difficult to do in fast company. Sorry for the long post, but my advice is to listen to Mr. Giorgio. I have yet to read anything from him that conflicted with my experience at the card table.
John Wilson
 
Posts: 98
Joined: 06/23/08 07:43 PM

Postby John Wilson » 02/17/06 09:20 PM

Are there any plans to reprint Revelations. I do not own a copy, and the $500+ price tags seem high for the copies for sale online. I also eagerly await Marlo's Riffle Shuffle work...
John Wilson
 
Posts: 98
Joined: 06/23/08 07:43 PM

Postby Glenn Bishop » 02/25/06 03:39 PM

Not claiming to be an expert and also not claiming to say that my card work would stand up in a casino - and I might add I am not interested in casino's or playing the part of casino cheating expert.

Speaking as just a magician that enjoys card magic and card sharp routines.

The Stevens cull is explained in the Vernon/Erdnase book Revelations. I used it as the foundation for a cut the aces routine called Glenn Bishop cuts the aces on my first DVD. Video of this routine is at my web site www.bishmagic.org

The Vernon Triumph shuffle also makes a great cull shuffle and if you add the table Hindu shuffle to this it makes a great cut the aces cull shuffle - like the Stevens cull does. I make no claim as to if I could make it pass in a real game because that is not the reason I do magic.

By the way I feel that Jimmy Cards Molinari has one of the best overhand shuffle culls for magic. And Tony Picasso has one of the best - fooled me with it - culls that magically can set a borrowed deck back into new deck order after he finished a card performance - called the cheetah cull. Tony Picasso is great and I saw him do this at the Magic Castle and he fooled me.

Enjoy!
Glenn Bishop
 
Posts: 642
Joined: 03/14/08 10:52 AM

Postby Glenn Bishop » 03/08/06 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Tony Giorgio:
Haymow (overhand) shuffles are never used in money games or by casino dealers.
Cheating in a casino is a felony in the USA and if anyone cheats in a casino and gets caught they will get a record.

The haymow shuffle may not be used in casino's but from what I understand from knowing more than one advantage player - is that most of the cheating done by advantage players IS done in the friendly little home games that are played at homes, and in bars and night club back rooms.

The haymow shuffle or the overhand shuffle is used in these kind of games and in real world cheating.

Speaking just as a magician I find the run ups that use the overhand shuffle to have more showmanship because it is done off the table and the audience CAN SEE IT! Most of the run ups with the overhand shuffle are also faster and LOOK more skillful from the audience point of view.

Just some thoughts.
Glenn Bishop
 
Posts: 642
Joined: 03/14/08 10:52 AM

Postby Guest » 03/14/06 01:46 AM

Yes, most cheating would take place outside of a casino. However, it would take place with serious players who generally take their dealing procedures from casinos. I don't know which type of shuffle seems more skillful to a layman, but I know, without a doubt (as a poker player), that a riffle is the only shuffle that is used in real cash games.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 03/14/06 09:26 AM

Originally posted by John Wilson:
Yes, most cheating would take place outside of a casino. However, it would take place with serious players who generally take their dealing procedures from casinos. but I know, without a doubt (as a poker player), that a riffle is the only shuffle that is used in real cash games.
So what your saying is that "Cheating only happens in serious card games played with serious card players and serious card games using the riffle shuffle in real cash games?"

Real card sharps blend in - shuffle the deck and do what THE OTHER PLAYERS DO. They shuffle the cards like the OTHER PLAYERS. They blend in and often act like they know the least about the game that they are playing.

Plus in most tournament poker games - and casino's have dealers that do the work of dealing the game. In a casino there is two kinds of cheating. The kind done by the dealers that are employees of the casino. And the kind tried by players.

Both use different tools.

And what is used in and outside the casino depends on where it is used and the protocol of the rules of the location of the casino or gaming venue.

Speaking as a magician to have another magician or card player or a self proclaimed expert say that the Jog-Shuffle is not allowed in "MONEY GAMES" or "REAL WORLD CHEATING" or in a "TOURNAMENT HOLDEM GAME" is a so what.

Because at the entertainment table the audience does not care and they are there to be ENTERTAINED!

I remember being at a show with Jack Pyle and he just did his bridge deal for the audience and some know it all magician came over and told him that Jack's second deal would not make it in a "real game" what Jack said about the jerk to me after the jerk left I won't post.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 03/14/06 09:26 PM

Glenn, first let me say that my posts on this topic are not in response to an overhand shuffle as used in a magic trick. They are strictly in response to the notion of the overhand shuffle being used in cash games. In fact, my posts on this thread are not even posted as a magician, but as a serious poker player. Sure if a group wanted to, they could have a cash game for whatever stakes they want and allow only overhand shuffles. This is, however, not standard practice, and, as you pointed out, cheaters want to blend in. They, therefore, would use only shuffles that are standard for the game at hand. Performing an overhand shuffle in any of the games that I have been a part of (and that is quite a few) would stick out like a sore thumb.
My statement about cheating taking place in serious cash games pehaps could use some elaboration. Usually at least, serious stakes makes for serious players. Serious players usually demand strict dealing procedures (at least all the poker players I know do).
For shuffles in a trick, by all means, use whatever works best for you, but I would have to ask you for a reference of cheating taking place in a modern poker game using an overhand shuffle as I am not aware of one.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 03/15/06 09:11 AM

I have not played cards for years - but back quite a few years now I have played cards show business people to smooze - the way people play golf.

This plus card games in night clubs and bars that I have performed in after they closed the joint. In these old games the over hand shuffle was acceptable. This may be penny any or small time but in In Rome do what the Romans do.

Things have changed a little since then because Texas Holdem is very popular and poker and card playing has taken on a more serious attitude by many that play the game nowdays.

Also there is jog shuffle information and jog false shuffle information on the Steve Forte tapes as well on the video tapes of others who are considered as authorities in magic and card shark technique. I consider that as a modern reference to what is going on in todays card world even if you do not.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 03/16/06 12:18 AM

The simple reality is, it depends. I've instructed people in cheating techniques to cheat regularly and use overhand shuffles because they often play with similar groups of people and those people are used to them using overhand shuffles. However, these are not well organized high stakes games. And that is perhaps a big key in all this. There is a lot of cheating that goes on these days in private games and most private games are very poorly organized, in fact it's amazing what you can get away with in such circumstances, but you're talking about winning a few hundred, or maybe a few thousand dollars at most in an evening. This isn't necessarily bad money for the average person, but it's worth considering.

With that in mind, knowing effective overhand methods (which are sometimes easier than riffle methods, depending on a wide range of factors) can certainly be useful to the modern cheat.

Quite frankly, due to the ease of cheating in lower stakes games it can actually pay to remain in those arenas where polished card handling is less likely to fly and simply play more games.

Mr. Bishop, do you have any contact information for Mr. Picasso, I'd be interested in corresponding with him about his ideas, this cheetah cull sounds interesting. How many shuffles are we talking about here? A performance can last a long time and allow for quite a lot, but generally the likes of reseting a deck to new deck order in even ten shuffles is impressive.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 03/21/06 07:15 PM

I am sorry I have lost touch with Tony Picasso and lost his business card I got when I met him at the Magic Castle. In fact I wanted him to have a set of my DVD's so I sent the set to a friend of his for him to forward to Tony.

If you meet up with him tell him Glenn Bishop sends his best wishes. He is a great entertainer with a deck of cards and does a great shell game.
Guest
 

Postby Pete Biro » 03/21/06 11:29 PM

At the last WMS convention in Las Vegas a retired 'mechanic' met me for lunch. He did a riffle shuffle run up at the lunch table and dealt a killer hand. No slowing down, no looking at the cards... just bing bang shuffled and dealt.
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Guest » 03/22/06 12:42 AM

If you meet up with him tell him Glenn Bishop sends his best wishes.

If I talk to him I'll let him know.

At the last WMS convention in Las Vegas a retired 'mechanic' met me for lunch. He did a riffle shuffle run up at the lunch table and dealt a killer hand. No slowing down, no looking at the cards... just bing bang shuffled and dealt.

Was he culling and stacking or just stacking? I always thought the "no looking at the cards" part was overrated. First of all, unless you're using some kind of prepared deck, or locating the cards in advance, you just plain can't do it while culling simply because you have to look at the deck in order to locate the cards. Second of all, it's a definate sign of a pro not to look at the cards when shuffling as most people do look to some extent. Not looking can thus prove to be a tip off. The key I find isn't that you shouldn't look at the deck, but that you shouldn't give it too much attention, that you should be casual and not terribly focused on the shuffling.

I remember hearing some impressive stories of people who could cull extremely quickly, I always wanted to see that, as, though simple culling (one card per shuffle or something comparable) isn't so hard, culling large amounts of cards very quickly is something I consider quite difficult and generally requires slowing the shuffle down substantially, I'd be interested in knowing just how fast it can be done.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 03/22/06 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Michael Close:
A little known, but excellent source is Thanks to Zarrow by Jerry Sadowitz. This entire manuscript is devoted to culling and stacking with the Zarrow shuffle.

I have no idea where you could get a copy.

M. Close
www.jerrysadowitz.com

That's where I got my copy.
Guest
 

Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/22/06 08:50 AM

I heard that Sadowitz had to apologize after the publication of that because the essential idea had already appeared in The Complete Works of Derek Dingle in 1982.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20382
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Next

Return to Close-Up Magic