Double lift mistake

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 06/24/06 05:32 PM

If I mess up a double lift ( for example lift three cards), rather then fumbling, any suggestions on how to "cover it up" and do the double lift again. :confused:
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Postby Guest » 06/24/06 06:34 PM

Originally posted by japanbobtuna:
If I mess up a double lift ( for example lift three cards)
If doing a turnover from the deck and not revealing a setup, you are ahead of the game.

If doing a display, perhaps a good time to do a miscall and go foward as well.

If doing an ACR... also likely a good time to move foward.

What cases concern you?
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Postby Guest » 06/24/06 08:27 PM

Of course the solution is practice, but last night I had a show and I felt I was overconcerned about my double lift and and kept checking to make sure I had 2 cards. The spectaors seem not to notice, but to me my lifts seemed awkward. Raher then being overly concerned, I was wondering if there is a way to "cover up" a messed up double lift.
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Postby Guest » 06/24/06 10:27 PM

What method double lift are you using? If you get a break under the top two cards ahead of time it shouldn't be a problem getting the wrong number of cards when you actually do the lift or turnover.
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Postby Guest » 06/25/06 12:14 AM

Well, depends on the trick. If I don't have time to get a break I use the hit strike double lift.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/25/06 09:10 AM

Part of practice is the development of self confidence.

If you don't have the confidence that you've picked up only two cards, you haven't practiced enough.

I got nailed on a Double Lift when I was 12 and that was the last time--I practiced my ass off after that.

Happy to say that after many years I can do Triple Lifts using the Gordon Turnover technique and they never spread even a hair. :)
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Postby Guest » 06/25/06 03:27 PM

Your right! Its all about confidence. Since it was my first show in a long time AND my first show in speaking in Japanese. I was a bit tense. Thanks for the advise.
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Postby Guest » 06/29/06 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Part of practice is the development of self confidence.

If you don't have the confidence that you've picked up only two cards, you haven't practiced enough.

I got nailed on a Double Lift when I was 12 and that was the last time--I practiced my ass off after that.

Happy to say that after many years I can do Triple Lifts using the Gordon Turnover technique and they never spread even a hair. :)
Speaking of which, mind if I ask something?
The question goes to Mr. Kauffman (or well, feedback from the rest wouldn't hurt) :) ...
What double lift technique do you use??
I have some doubts about which double lift could be the best... First, there's the issue of making a break or using a hit strike double lift... Can you put your opinion on this matter?
At the moment, I use a push-off double lift (learned from a southamerican magician, called Dmaso Fernndez), which uses the muscles on the palm to push the 2 cards and then flipping it... (obviously, with a previous break)
This is a subject I've been thinking about this for some time, as I want the most natural way to do it, but I have my doubts on which it would be the best method...
Because also the way to make the break changes, pinky or thumb count (which one to choose?)

I saw Fred Kaps double lift, and it's quite a simple one, but still quite effective. It would be nice to hear your opinion about it.

Well, I'm sorry for the long post, but it's an issue I'd like to discuss.
Thanks
Antonio
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/29/06 07:25 PM

I obtain a break in advance.
I use either the Gordon Turnover or the Jennings Double Pushoff or Dai Vernon's Light Lift.
All simulate natural handlings.
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Postby Guest » 06/30/06 01:11 PM

What double lift technique do you use??
How do you turn over/reveal a single card? Emulate that action.
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Postby Guest » 07/01/06 07:51 AM

My two cents.
One cannot do a double lift that simulates the real way a "normal" person would show a single card.

Does this mean we are lost?

No.

The solution is to pick a good one then do it a thousand times as a double and as a single until it becomes normal with you. When you manipulate a single before using a double, simulate the sleight move. That makes it normal for you. It sells well to the audience.

Now, as to how I do the double.

I get the break with a little finger pulldown motion. I invented this after about 100 other people did also. It is just a natural thing to do.

Then I do a push off of the two cards and a book turn to show the card.

The reason I am mentioning this is to caution the reader that the book turn is critical. One must let go of the cards so they fly through the air by themseleves. This gives a very natural look to the move. Often the cards separate. To solve this the cards are squared instantly when they hit the deck.

I have been using this for over 40 years. Based on the reaction my routines get with the laymen, it is solid.

Maybe part of what I am saying is that during the performance of any move, there are built in corrections that automatically handle errors.

In most of my moves there are touch points that indicate if the hands are positioned correctly.

Thanks for listening.

Al Schneider
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Postby Guest » 07/01/06 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Al Schneider:
My two cents.
One cannot do a double lift that simulates the real way a "normal" person would show a single card.

Does this mean we are lost?

No.

The solution is to pick a good one then do it a thousand times as a double and as a single until it becomes normal with you. When you manipulate a single before using a double, simulate the sleight move. That makes it normal for you. It sells well to the audience.

Now, as to how I do the double.

I get the break with a little finger pulldown motion. I invented this after about 100 other people did also. It is just a natural thing to do.

Then I do a push off of the two cards and a book turn to show the card.

The reason I am mentioning this is to caution the reader that the book turn is critical. One must let go of the cards so they fly through the air by themseleves. This gives a very natural look to the move. Often the cards separate. To solve this the cards are squared instantly when they hit the deck.

I have been using this for over 40 years. Based on the reaction my routines get with the laymen, it is solid.

Maybe part of what I am saying is that during the performance of any move, there are built in corrections that automatically handle errors.

In most of my moves there are touch points that indicate if the hands are positioned correctly.

Thanks for listening.

Al Schneider
Thank you very much for your opinion, Mr. Schneider.

Antonio
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Postby flynn » 03/22/08 02:20 AM

I don't mean to brag but I developed a touch grabbing to cards by the upper an lower left sides of the cards using my forefinger and thumb. I can tell if its two or three cards. It was something I practiced over and over again going thru the deck several times each time out. I learned it that way when I was younger because I was to lazy to learn it using get readys and other techniques. Also I didnt know of any tecniques at first.
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Postby Richard Perrin » 03/25/08 02:30 AM

Just wondering... how many "double lift" are there? I only know 4 but all are good. I like to know what are the most natural looks "double lift". Your input are welcome.
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Postby Aldo Romano » 03/25/08 08:27 AM

There must be dozens of double lifts. Here are my favourites. I use the Vernon double lift more than any other but there are a couple of very good ones in Paul Le Paul's book on card magic. The advantage of one of those in particular is that there is no get-ready whatsoever.

Another lift with no get ready is a corner to corner one that I saw a magician described in a lecture years ago.

I also get great results by combining Harry Loraynes "Kick" double lift described in "Decksterity" with the Nate Leipzig double lift described in Ganson's book. By marrying the two techniques a great double lift comes out of it. It was as if they were made for each other.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 03/25/08 09:57 AM

What's the name of the one where you pretty much lift the card(s) by the corner, show the face to the audience then replace back on the pack?

Seems to work pretty well when the audience is more than a few inches away.

Not sure what the attraction to the double turnover is, but whatever floats your boat.
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Postby Bill McFadden » 03/25/08 02:03 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:What's the name of the one where you pretty much lift the card(s) by the corner, show the face to the audience then replace back on the pack?


I believe you're referring to Bob White's Flash Double. Works for me even in close quarters.

Personally, I'll take the Stuart Gordon double any day.
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Postby Bill Evans » 03/25/08 02:32 PM

Many years ago in San Francisco, Paul Chosse showed me a double lift with no get ready that involved picking the double off the upper right corner of the deck with the right middle fingertip pad. I don't know whose it is, but it's a wonderful no get ready DL.

When I was first starting out, I used what I called a "spiral" DL which also used the corners of the deck and required no get ready. grip the top two cards with the right thumb on the lower right corner and the right middle finger on the upper left corner. Once the double [or triple....with practice you can do it by feel] is thusly secured the thumb and finger squeeze gently forcing the card in somewhat of a concave position while at the same time the right hand moves to the right and slightly forward forcing the cards to contact the left middle finger which in turn causes the double to rotate 180 degrees on the axis formed with the right thumb and middle finger, thus turning the card face up. It's probably a reinvention of someone else's, but I've never seen it in print.
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Postby Alan M » 03/25/08 02:47 PM

Bill: The double lift that Paul Chosse showed you might be similar to the Derek Dingle Double Lift, found on page 6 of the Complete Works of Derek Dingle. Derek's also has no get ready, however his begins by picking the double off the outer right corner of the deck using the 3rd fingertip rather than the middle fingertip.
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Postby Kohoutek » 03/25/08 06:13 PM

Try counting down with the left thumb the double at the top left corner and buckle at the front. Insert the index finger in to the gap below these cards and with pressure from thumb allow the cards to "flick" over the second, third and pinkie on the outside of the deck. This can take some practice.
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Postby Mr. Stickley » 03/26/08 02:11 AM

Bill -

If Chosse showed it to you, I would bet it is this...

http://www.thinklikeaconjurer.com/insid ... alm-TTT.rm

and the work can be found in Genii, November 1982, p 750-751.

There should be some further work and illustrations on the same technique on Cogitations.net .

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Postby Chris Aguilar » 03/26/08 11:26 AM

Mr. Stickley wrote:There should be some further work and illustrations on the same technique on Cogitations.net .

Mr. Stickley
No, that site no longer exists. It (the TTT) was taught (with Bauer's permission) in great detail via Youell's "Compendium Project" cd's which are no longer for sale.
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Postby Bill Evans » 03/26/08 11:40 AM

That's it Mr. Stickley. I was revisiting this last night and realized that Paul used the forefinger and not the middle finger.

Kouthtek is right about the snap double. It's great. I first saw someone do this at the Magic Castle many years ago and that is the only thing I remember from the performance. Went home and worked it out. Then I discovered that it makes the perfect platform for a one handed stud second deal by turning the hand palm down as the forefinger pushes the second card face up out of the deck. I showed this to Michael Skinner and he said that Larry Jennings had worked out a similar if not exact method. If you do the one handed second with the deck face up, it makes a wonderful switch of a card as the second card is placed into the spectator's hand.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/26/08 11:42 AM

Jennings' Snap Double Lift was published in The Gen in 1964, I believe. I don't care for the move--it's contrived and not at all natural. Jennings rarely used it in later life.
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Postby Bill Evans » 03/26/08 11:54 AM

Richard

Was the Gen '64 article just on the double or did it include the one handed second deal? I think the latter is the best use for this move and I have found it works well for the card switch. A card is selected and signed by the spectator. Magician helps provide a platform by putting it on the face as he holds the deck. After signature, the card is supposedly placed in spectator's palm while in reality, it is retained on the bottom of the deck and the second card from the face [which could be a second spectator's signed selection] is placed in the spectator's hand. You see the signed selection at all times as the palm is turned down, creating a retension of vision type effect.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/26/08 01:39 PM

Just the Double Lift.
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Postby Dmatthew » 03/26/08 04:33 PM

Could someone please enlighten me as to the mechanics of the Gordon Double, or, at least, let me know where to find the move.
Thanks.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/26/08 04:53 PM

The only proper description appears in the Derek Dingle memorial issue of Genii which appeared in the spring of 2004, I think.
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Postby Dmatthew » 03/26/08 05:41 PM

"Proper"? I suppose there are others that are not so accurate then? Excellent. I will research that. Thanks Richard.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/26/08 07:27 PM

"Proper" meaning accurate in the way Dingle did it.

There is a very brief description with no illustrations in The Cardwright.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/26/08 08:19 PM

I should add that I don't believe the Gordon Lift has ever been described the way Stuart Gordon actually does it. The published methods are the way Jennings did it, filtered through Dingle (who learned it from Jennings).
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Postby NCMarsh » 03/26/08 08:32 PM

Richard,

That's intriguing...I found your description (and the gorgeous, clean, and extremely helpful Oakes illustration) in the '67 book to be very useful in learning the sleight...if there is ever the opportunity, I think a description similarly authored by you and illustrated by Mr. Oakes of Mr. Gordon's handling would be very, very cool....

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Postby Bill McFadden » 03/27/08 12:40 AM

Dmatthew, I urge you to pay heed to what Mr. Kaufman is sharing here. (Although we have been down that road before on this very Forum.)

You will also find a description of the Stuart Gordon double in Darwin Ortiz' The Cardshark. You'll also want to work on your Pinky Count.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/27/08 10:25 AM

I should add that the Gordon Life is extremely difficult to do properly. It will take some years of practice so that it can be done with any deck and in conditions of varying humidity in which you find yourself.
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Postby Jim Maloney » 03/27/08 10:35 AM

One thing I've found about the Stuart Gordon Turnover is that it works much better with a lighter touch. Tensing up your fingers and trying to force it just makes it more likely that the cards will separate. Because the Turnover itself requires you to handle the cards fairly loosely, there seems to be a psychological need to try and hold on tighter, which only works against you. Loosening up, relaxing, and just letting it go seems to make it easier.

Although, thinking about it, that's the case for most sleight of hand.

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Postby Darryl Harris » 03/27/08 11:16 AM

Another thing that will help is to use the thumbnail, instead of the pad of the thumb as it slides across the face of the card(s). It reduces the friction, and helps avoid the dreaded premature separation.

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Postby Dmatthew » 03/27/08 02:25 PM

I see. Now that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the info.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/27/08 08:00 PM

Not to play devil's advocate, but I don't use my thumbnail. The pad of my thumb slides smoothly down the cards. This is how Gordon does it as well.
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Postby Bob Phillips » 03/28/08 01:10 AM

The Derek Dingle double lift from the excellent book that Richard wrote several years ago.
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Postby Darth Ewok » 04/16/08 10:56 AM

Kohoutek wrote:Try counting down with the left thumb the double at the top left corner and buckle at the front. Insert the index finger in to the gap below these cards and with pressure from thumb allow the cards to "flick" over the second, third and pinkie on the outside of the deck. This can take some practice.


Thats the larry jennings snap double. its the same one i use. i believen Daryl said it was one of his favorites too
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