The FARIFFLE Shuffle!

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 08/12/03 03:43 PM

I have a Pocket CD I'm selling for $12.00 ppd US or $15.00 ppd anywhere else.

The CD contains four (4) Windows Movies that
can be watched through the Windows Media Player.
The movies are on:

The Tabled Faro
The Zarrow Shuffle
Side Steal from a Spread
The Top Change

You can see a clip from this CD at:
Faro Demonstration

This clip will demonstrate a perfect Tabled Faro.

Thanks!

Steven Youell
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Postby Pete Biro » 08/12/03 08:50 PM

When I get off this 2400 b aud modem, will check 'em out... zzzzzzzzzzzzzz :sleep: :sleep:
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/12/03 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
When I get off this 2400 b aud modem, will check 'em out... zzzzzzzzzzzzzz :sleep: :sleep:
Just checked them out on a cable modem.

The shuffles look like the cards get shuffled...

Good going!
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 08/13/03 08:49 AM

Videos look really nice.

Have purchased this from Steve and will post a review when I get it.

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Postby Adrian Kuiper » 08/14/03 08:40 AM

Just a question....doesn't the clip show a riffle shuffle rather than a Faro???
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 08/14/03 09:34 AM

Adrian,

When he spreads the cards after the tabled shuffle, you can see that they've been perfectly faro'ed.
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Postby Adrian Kuiper » 08/14/03 10:53 AM

OK...then maybe I'm not understanding what is meant by a Faro shuffle. In the hands, it is splitting the deck precisely in half, then the bottom of one half is pressed against the top of the other and by some "magic wiggle thing", the cards interlace exactly. I had assumed that a tabled faro would be the same thing: cut exactly, butt the ends while the deck is flat on the table, do the "wiggle thing" and voila .....they're interlaced. In the video, the action of the thumbs are more in tune to a riffle shuffle and not what I expected of a tabled faro shuffle.
(And yes I know how dastardly things could be when you "assume".)
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Postby Guest » 08/14/03 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Adrian Kuiper:
OK...then maybe I'm not understanding what is meant by a Faro shuffle. In the hands, it is splitting the deck precisely in half, then the bottom of one half is pressed against the top of the other and by some "magic wiggle thing", the cards interlace exactly. I had assumed that a tabled faro would be the same thing: cut exactly, butt the ends while the deck is flat on the table, do the "wiggle thing" and voila .....they're interlaced. In the video, the action of the thumbs are more in tune to a riffle shuffle and not what I expected of a tabled faro shuffle.
(And yes I know how dastardly things could be when you "assume".)
Adrian,

A Perfect Tabled Faro is composed of two things:

1) Splitting the deck perfectly at 26 cards and shuffling those 26 cards perfectly into the other 26 cards.

2) Making it look exactly like a riffle shuffle.

Does that clear things up for you?

Steven Youell
www.cardguy.net
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Postby Adrian Kuiper » 08/14/03 06:41 PM

I understand a bit better than I did. I swear, getting old is not any fun at all!!!

Thanks for the clarification....and, by the way, the video is great!!! I should be so talented.

Adrian
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Postby Guest » 08/14/03 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Adrian Kuiper:
Thanks for the clarification....and, by the way, the video is great!!! I should be so talented.
There's nothing on those clips that you
couldn't learn to do. I promise.

Steven Youell
www.cardguy.net
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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/15/03 01:30 AM

Hmmm. Doesn't that describe a perfect riffle shuffle? ECT is at home but I too was under the impression that a faro involved pushing the talons together on the table. I'll check later and will gladly acknowledge if I'm mistaken.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/15/03 03:28 AM

Sooner than expected, but the Library had two copies :)

On page 65 of ECT a perfect riffle shuffle is described. This is what Steven is doing in his clip. On page 143 the perfect Faro is described, which involves holding the talons at the outer ends and 'weaving' the cards together.

This is not meant in any way to disparage Steven's very obvious skill. Hugard says on page 65 that the best cardmen in the world can only hit a perfect riffle 4 times out of 5. The Faro is mentioned as the riffle has the same properties after eight shuffles, so learning Steven's technique means you won't have to bust a gut with the Faro...and the Zarrow looks fantastic :)

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 08/15/03 07:37 AM

Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
On page 65 of ECT a perfect riffle shuffle is described. This is what Steven is doing in his clip. On page 143 the perfect Faro is described, which involves holding the talons at the outer ends and 'weaving' the cards together.
Ian, I'm doing a Faro. You're making the call by just watching the clip. And BTW,
never use ECT as your sole reference. It's fairly well known that ECT has several errors.

Trust me on this one!
:cool:

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Postby Matthew Field » 08/15/03 08:34 AM

Very nice, Steven!

Students might also wish to check out Martin Nash's video "Infinity and Beyonr," in the "Beyond" section.

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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/15/03 08:44 AM

Okay, but the rear shot of the move clearly shows the thumbs riffling the deck, and they are at the inner ends. Can you confirm that you do not riffle the deck?

As I said in the mail, ECT was all I can get to from here, but since you seem to be doing exactly what is described as a riffle in ECT it seems fair to conclude that is the move. The book may well have many errors, but I'm not sure differentiating between two shuffles is one (but I'll cross reference at home...)

Another reason for assuming the move is a riffle is that your definition of a faro seems a bit strange. Can you point me to a reference that describes a faro as something that 'looks exactly like a riffle'. Also, can you point out how ECT's description of a tabled faro is incorrect, as the machanics described in the book accurately mirror the 'in the hands' versions, apart from being on a table.

I'll trust you, but I need a lot more convincing :)

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 08/15/03 09:15 AM

Ian, here's a further convincer for you. I've seen and been taught Steve's Tabled Faro shuffle. It is a Faro, with the appearance of a Riffle. For those who have seen Martin Nash's "Beyond" tape, he performs the same sleight with different technique.

If you would like to apparently Riffle Shuffle the cards and in fact perform a Faro, Youell's technique and finesses are a nice way to go. His touches on the Side Steal and Zarrow, which I have seen and discussed in person, are also recommended.

--Randy Campbell
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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/16/03 01:29 PM

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I should explain why I need more convincing...

1. I'm a bit at odds with Steve's definition of a faro shuffle. Here's why; to the very best of my knowledge there is little objection to what the 'in the hands' faro describes - the deck is split into talons, the two talons are pushed together and they weave into each other one-for-one. The description in ECT is very clear; the deck is split and the two talons are pushed together and they weave. The only difference is the talons are on the table. I cannot see how this description is one of ECT's 'many errors' as the two variations are so mechanically similar.

To describe any 'one-for-one' shuffle that looks 'exactly like a riffle' as a faro seems like bending the definition a wee bit.

2. I've just watched the clip another dozen times or so (this time with the sound up), and I am _convinced_ that the cards are riffling off the thumbs. I see it, and I hear it. The packets are lifted slightly, and there is a distinct 'riffling' noise that is very different from the 'swishing' noise you get from a weave. When Steven tells me that he does not riffle the cards off his thumbs I'll be more convinced, but a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. I don't claim to be a hardcore card guy, but after close to twenty years I can recognise a riffle.

3. The Tabled Faro is one of the mythical moves that many have heard of, few have seen and fewer still can do. I have always acknowedged Steven's skill, but at the moment I see a variation of a riffle shuffle.

4. Your point that Steven's technique would befit people that would like the appearance of a riffle, but really do a faro seems to point to a misunderstanding of the Faro shuffle. Checking with chapter 8 of Sharps and Flats, Faro is the name of a game, not the definition of a one-for-one shuffle. The fact that ECT and Steven refer to a _perfect_ faro shuffle implies that an _imperfect_ shuffle is also possible (that is to say not one-for-one). A faro shuffle consists of pushing the talons together, and as we all know this is more often than not imperfect :) . A riffle shuffle may also be perfect or imperfect.

In summary (if you've waded through this far...) to be converted I'd need a reference to a definition of a faro as any one-for-one shuffle, reasons why the ECT and Sharps and Flats descriptions are in error and assurance that Steven's technique does not involve riffling the cards off the thumbs. Then I will gladly post here that I am mistaken. In the meantime I believe I have seen an excellent perfect riffle shuffle, and recommend his CD to anyone who wants to learn these moves.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/16/03 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
...Perhaps I should explain why I need more convincing...
Steve's tabled faro shuffle might look a bit out of place in a game of faro... but beyond that, it looks just like a tabled riffle shuffle, which is just what's needed to do some of the more advanced shuffle routines.

I don't get the rest of the humor about needing to be convinced, or being fooled by the thumb action in the technique. Then again I don't do cards.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 08/16/03 03:05 PM

The preoccupation with semantics here clouds the fact that the shuffle being referenced (based on a P.Chosse move) is useful, well taught, and the end result exactly matches what most magi likely would refer to as a perfectly faro'ed deck.

Some might need convincing of some kind here, but I'll say this. The move referenced gets the job done and does it in an extremely natural way.

Just got the mini CD today and have watched the teaching materials several times, so I feel quite comfortable speaking about its contents.

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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/17/03 03:18 AM

Wow, that got nasty in a hurry...

I am happy to let this rest, as it seems to boil down to what we think a faro consists of, and we are unlikely to change. Agreeing to disagree seems to be the path.

At no point did I cast dispersions on the quality of the moves in question. In fact, in every post and private mails to Steven I praised the moves and recommended that people got his CD. It trying to keep things light I used liberal smilies throughout the thread. I was not the first person to question the riffle/faro discrepancy but only echoed the sentiment. In the thread here and in emails I found Steven's replies to be a wee bit patronising, and then hostile at the end.

I'm sure Steven's customers will be more than happy with the moves, and recommend the CD based on its merits.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Matt Sedlak » 08/17/03 06:45 AM

Ian,

I think I understand what your asking. I will try to, hopefully, clear things up for you. It seems that you are saying that the Faro shuffle is where the cards are weaved together and interlace perfectly throughout the deck. The confusion is coming from the fact that you are seeing the cards being riffled, thereby making it a riffle shuffle.
In a tabled riffle shuffle, the riffling action is simulated by the thumbs. Though they ride up along the sides of the cards, thereby providing an audible and visual illuion, they are not shuffling the cards. They sort of ride up the cards above the weaving action from the faro shuffle.
The difficulty in the technique, besides controlling ins and outs, is in making it look anything like a riffle shuffle. If you can do a faro shuffle, its easy enough to place the cards on the table and butt them together, causing them to faro. However, that looks nothing like a regular shuffle.
I hope that cleared some of it up for you.
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Postby Jeff Hinchliffe » 08/17/03 11:18 AM

Ian,

I think that the problem you are having is understanding when the riffle occurs during the shuffle. In the "Perfect Tabled Riffle Shuffle" the riffle happens BEFORE the weave. In a "Perfect Tabled Faro" the riffle happens AFTER the weave. Not long after, mind you, but the cards are weaved (as in a faro) as opposed to riffled (as in a riffle shuffle). The shuffle used for the game FARO was designed to split up pairs and such. It's mathematical applications are quite useful for gambling demonstrations and the like, but the Faro shuffle is out of place done in the hands for a pseudo-gambling demonstration. Thus, it became necessary to devise a tabled version. Using a simulated riffle, the tabled faro then appears to be a riffle shuffle. I hope this has cleared things up for you.

Jeff

BTW, if I am wrong about any of this, someone please let me know. I do not have Mr. Youell's CD, so I'm basing my assumption on his word and the performance demonstration of the shuffle (which is absolutely beautiful, I should mention).
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 08/18/03 11:04 PM

Because some interest was shown in further discussing Tabled Faros (as shown in Stevens clip, I might add, and though I would normally never say anything like this, but this is 30+ years experience speaking), I have unlocked this thread. I have also deleted those posts that, in my occasionally flawed judgement, contributed nothing to this thread. To those who had their posts deleted, please play past it.

Back to the Tabled Faro

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Postby Guest » 08/18/03 11:20 PM

Many people are nervous about using the tabled faro in performance because they're not confident of their ability to get a perfect in or out everytime.

Here's a tip-- do effects in which you just need a perfect weave and if you miss a couple of cards near the top or bottom it won't matter.

When I was practicing this move I used it to do Estimation Aces all the time.

I still do.


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Postby Chris Aguilar » 08/19/03 12:05 AM

Ah, the joys of censorship! While I have no choice but to respect Dustins actions, I'll respectfuly disagree that the issues I brought up were lacking in merit.

But in the immortal words of Racherbaumer, Onward.....

I'm having fairly good luck with Steven's teaching of the Chosse technique. I'm still fighting to get the perfect weave and have some issue with "clumping" of cards. As when I initially learned the standard faro, I think I'm putting a bit too much pressure to start and maintain the weave. I also suspect I'm doing the thumb riffle too fast and not as smoothly as it needs to be done. I'll have to say it's a fun move to practice. But let us not get so hung up on the semantics and forget that Stevens CD also has some really fine teaching (in addition to the tabled faro for those wanting to brush up on their Zarrow, Side Steal, and Top change. :D
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Postby Guest » 08/19/03 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Chris Aguilar:
I'm having fairly good luck with Steven's teaching of the Chosse technique.
Hey Chris-- thanks for the great review. But it goes a bit further back than Paul Chosse and I thought it important to let you know--

The original technique came from Charlie Miller.
Paul Chosse taught it to me just as he learned it.(I'm sure he added some finesse!)
I made some minor changes and refinements.

OK, now I feel all better...! :D

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Postby Chris Aguilar » 08/19/03 01:04 AM

Ah, thanks for the full pedigree Steven.

I think this little CD (and hopefully the ones to follow) :D will be really useful for those folks needing help with these techniques.
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Postby Pete Biro » 08/19/03 11:02 AM

Remember, you are not going to learn this in a few days...

Ask Youell how long it took him before he became comfortable with it.

And, Steverino... I have a new Ethernet (whatever that is) modem coming Thursday... maybe get back into DSL land. :cool:

Also Amigo... what method did Jim Cooper use? :confused:
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Postby Frank Yuen » 08/19/03 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Steven Youell

The original technique came from Charlie Miller.
Okay, I hope this doesn't start things up again, but Miller's technique is in fact one of the two methods cited in Expert Card Technique. I believe the confusion by Ian came about because Hugard titles the technique, "The Perfect Riffle Shuffle" but then details two methods for doing a table faro. If you are not reading closely it is easy to miss that he is not teaching a perfect riffle shuffle. Here is the relevant passage from the text:

"By resorting to subterfuge, however, not only is all this tedious practice eliminated, but success is assured every time. The following very easy method, which exactly simulates the movements of the riffle shuffle, is actually an application of the principle of the weave. With it, as with the Perfect Faro Shuffle, a pack can be brought back to it's original condition after eight shuffles."

The Miller technique is the second method taught.

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Postby Bob Gerdes » 08/19/03 12:11 PM

It looks like other forums are also having the semantics debate as well. Check this out:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... forum=2&24

In that thread is a post by Paul Chosse that addresses all this confusion, and also comments on Steven Youell's video.
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Postby Guest » 08/19/03 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Bob Gerdes:
It looks like other forums are also having the semantics debate as well. Check this out:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... forum=2&24

In that thread is a post by Paul Chosse that addresses all this confusion, and also comments on Steven Youell's video.
Actually, he's not really commenting on the video because when he posted that he hadn't yet seen the video. I talked with Paul since then and basically he told me that the terms ARE used interchangably, but that the Perfect Riffle Shuffle is, essentially a sub-set of the perfect faro.

So I give up-- I'll rename it! How about this:

The Fariffle Shuffle!

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Postby Bob Gerdes » 08/19/03 01:47 PM

I KNEW I shouldn't have posted that....sorry Steven! :o
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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/19/03 02:14 PM

OK, _now_ can we put this to bed...

Take care, Ian

(who is realising now why he hates card tricks)
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Postby Pete Biro » 08/19/03 03:09 PM

A few comments about shuffling.

Some time ago on another forum, someone wrote a review of a top card worker and said the routine was great and his faro shuffles were terrific.

OK, sorry, but if you NOTICED he did a Faro shuffle, then, IMHO, he blew it.

It is like saying "He did a nice routine and his palm was very nice."

NO... if his palm was "nice" that's not good enough. You should NOT even know that a card was palmed. Or seen any tells.

Daryl, at FISM some time back entered a trick in the Invention category. In the Jury meeting the chief judge (knowing I knew Daryl) asked me "how did the trick work?" I said "He palmed the card and..." The judge said, "Impossilbe... I did not see him palm a card."

I said, "It's Daryl... you don't see when he palms cards."

So then, if you need to shuffle the cards ala in or out Faro and you want to fool anybody, learning to do it on the table and make it look like a regular old riffle shuffle... YOU MUST LEARN THIS.

I cringe when I see a card worker cut the deck and hold the cards off the table and do a weave.

It ain't magic.

:cool:
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Postby Guest » 08/20/03 01:30 PM

Re: Perfect Riffle pedigree:

Charlie had several methods of shuffling cards so that they alternated perfectly. The terms "perfect riffle" and "tabled faro", and other such can be confusing. The technique I taught Steve, and that you are seeing on his video, IS a perfect riffle shuffle. He achieves faro-like results, and does it on the table, hence the "tabled faro" nomenclature. Adding to the confusion is the fact that, although it is a riffle shuffle, there are faro-like pressures brought to bear to effect the shuffle and insure predictable results. This is an outgrowth of the Miller technique that is described in ECT, and NOT exactly what you are reading there. For lack of any more efficient way to explain all this I would recommend that, if you are interested in the results you see on Steve's clip, you buy the CD, since, if he explains it to you the way I explained it to him, you are pretty much guaranteed to be doing what you're seeing within a week! How's that for a run-on sentence? Historically, Charlie showed me several methods, and the one Steve is doing is actually a combination of techniques that Charlie was quite enthusiastic about. My contribution was negligible, so let's leave it to Charlie!

Pete, as far as Jim Cooper goes, I only ever saw him do the false riffle that follows a weave, as described in one of the posts preceding this one. He did it better than anyone I have ever seen though, and it was virtually impossible to discern the time lapse between the weave and the riffle. Cooper taught me a method for the legendary "Scarne Ace Cutting" when I was just a kid, and I still use it today! He was an amazing fellow, though unsung these days for some reason...

Best, PSC
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Postby Guest » 08/20/03 01:54 PM

Originally posted by pchosse:
The technique I taught Steve, and that you are seeing on his video, IS a perfect riffle shuffle. He achieves faro-like results, and does it on the table, hence the "tabled faro" nomenclature. Adding to the confusion is the fact that, although it is a riffle shuffle, there are faro-like pressures brought to bear to effect the shuffle and insure predictable results.
SO the name "Fariffle Shuffle" is more accurate. I'll start changing the titles in the clips tonight!

Cool. Thanks Paul! I would guess that I stand corrected by the source!

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Postby Guest » 08/20/03 02:21 PM

Originally posted by pchosse:
Re: Perfect Riffle pedigree:

The technique I taught Steve, and that you are seeing on his video, IS a perfect riffle shuffle.
and, from The Magic Cafe, also by Paul Chosse,
You are right, of course, it looks exactly like a riffle shuffle, because it IS a riffle shuffle with faro-like results. There is a problem with the descriptions of these faro/riffle shuffles, in that the action is often confused with the result. What Steve does is a perfect riffle shuffle. He actually riffles the deck so that the cards are shuffled perfectly, the same result that you get from a faro, which uses a completely different handling.

So Ian Kendall is vindicated.

No doubt those who attacked him (naming no names) for daring to say that it was a Riffle Shuffle now feel contrite.

Dave
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Postby Guest » 08/20/03 02:55 PM

DAVE! Everyone was just getting along and you just HAD to start it up again, didn't you...? I even changed the name of the thread to compromise....

:rolleyes:

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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/20/03 03:15 PM

Whew...

Now that things seem to be cooling down let's all take a deep breath :) I'm less angry than I was yesterday, Steven is changing the name of his (I _still_ think) excellent shuffle and we are having a constructive chat about shuffle techniques. Deep joy.

Can I suggest we leave this particular thread with all its contentious history and start a new one where we can discuss the applications of whichever shuffle works best for you. Without sending wee boxes of cats' mess to each other.

Take care, Ian

P.S. Did I mention that Steven's Zarrow looks a lot like Marlo's Shank shuffle ;)
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/20/03 03:29 PM

I myself have never been all that clear on the issue of what differentiates a Tabled Faro Shuffle from a Perfect Riffle Shuffle done on the table.
The result of both is identical in that the cards are pefectly interwoven, however the big question is whether there is some difference between them.
The Perfect Table Riffle Shuffle, or a Dovetail Shuffle, is something that cardmen have been doing since the 1910s and 1920s, which is when T. Nelson Downs began writing about the cycles of cards and some effects that could be done with them. I published this material in the new edition of Greater Magic. There is little doubt that Downs was talking about a Perfect Tabled Riffle Shuffle.
Now, here's the point: when you do a normal Faro Shuffle in the hands, the corners of the deck must touch since that pressure, and subsequent release, are the mechanics by which the shuffle itself functions. If the corners of the halves do not touch, and do not build up pressure, then is it still a Faro Shuffle? I don't think so.
So:
1) A Tabled Faro Shuffle MUST have the corners of the halves of the deck touching in order to generate the pressure for the cards to interweave. This pressure is what defines the technique.
2) A Perfect Tabled Riffle Shuffle must NOT have the halves touching prior to when the falling cards mesh.
Clear? Comments?
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