Question about the riffle pass

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 03/16/02 02:23 PM

Hello everyone, my name is Aaron. I am new here and so far, I have benefited much from this forum. It's wonderful! I have been working on the riffle pass and whenever I bring up the bottom packet, I always end up turing the bottom card of the top packet over to where when I square up the deck, the bottom card of the top packet, the card above the key card I am moving to the top, is turned face up in the middle of the deck. This does not happen every time, but I could see how it could be beneficial for making the riffle pass into a trick on its own. I could show them the key card that will be moving to the top, and I could show them the card above it, so when I get done, I hit them with a double whammy by turning over the top card and then showing them the face up card in the middle. Of course, it is a little bit easier to detect this pass, especially since my original pass(the way its supposed to be done) is still sketchy. But, did anyone else have this problem and utilize it? Thank you for the welcome to this forum and thanks to anyone who responds to my question.

Aaron
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Postby Terry » 03/17/02 05:34 AM

Welcome from one Kentuckian to another. Re the pass - I had the problem with the classic pass turning a card. I had to learn to not hold the deck in the dreaded 'grip o death', meaning to loosen the grip and not hold so tight. This was driven home in a lecture video I have of another Genii member (not Richard). Best of luck! :)
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Postby Matthew Field » 03/17/02 09:24 AM

Terr Terrell's advice about avoiding the "death grip" is very good. Also important ios ensuring your right hand is held parallel with the deck, so there's no hand up of the travelling half.

The use of the hung up card as a center reverse has been explored (Krenzel? Cervon?) before.

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Postby Guest » 03/17/02 09:49 AM

Aaron, are you open to a suggestion for accomplishing the effect you described – it works every time? At least I think I understand the effect. It uses a Larry Jennings' reversal move and a side steal. It seems more direct as there is no big movement of 2 halves of the deck. I will send it if you wish.
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Postby Guest » 03/17/02 10:35 AM

Thank you all for answering my question. I am getting it now that I dont really grip the deck as hard. Terry, do you go to the I.B.M Ring 198 meetings in Lexington? They are very fund and usually last about three hours, so if you have never gone, you should come sometime. Go here to the Ring's website and you can check out the schedule and where the meetings are held.
http://ring198.tripod.com/ring198/index.html

Also, Joe, I would love it if you could send me that!

Aaron
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Postby Guest » 03/17/02 11:27 AM

Aaron, I'll e-mail that to you tomorrow - also, I'll send along a way to reverse a card in the middle while using the "turn-over" pass. Hope you get something out of both.
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Postby Terry » 03/18/02 09:53 AM

Aaron, I was a youth member of Ring 198 back in 79-80. The late Fred Cook was the one who got me interested in the club. I was at the 2001 Unconventional Convention and ended up having to stay at the Holiday Inn by the Interstate. This year I actually have a room at the lodge. I hope to attend the April meeting. What time do the meetings start?
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Postby Alpen » 03/18/02 10:25 AM

Joe...
I was very surpised to see that you brought up the Gombert Pass (reversing a selected card in the middle while doing a Hermann style or Turn-Over pass) and this pass, although I think it was not originated by him, was certainly extensively used by Frank Thompson, and I believe that is it written up by him, but i'm not sure where. :confused:
Hope this helps spark some insight by other more well informed members of the forum.
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Postby Guest » 03/18/02 01:51 PM

Terry, the meetings start at 2:30

Joe, thank you for the email. It was kind of hard to understand but I do get the jist of it. Thanks!

Aaron
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Postby Guest » 03/18/02 02:05 PM

Aaron I'm sorry for the "poor writing" - It's easier to do than to write a description. If there's anuything that's not clear - please let me try to make it easier to resd. Thanks for your patience
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Postby Guest » 03/18/02 07:20 PM

sorry if this post doesn't exactly fit the thread, but it is on the topic of the pass. I just started learning/practicing the classic pass and have a question on the fingering. Where does the left index finger go/stay? When I rotate the packets it usually moves with the lower half, thus giving it horrible exposure to the front and almost every other concievable angle. I know I must be doing something wrong because my pass isn't even close to invisible. In fact I think spectators would laugh if I tried it in front of them right now. I know it is a hard move and takes lots of practice I just want to make sure I have a solid technique and don't learn any bad habits. Any help you all can provide would be great.

Thanks-
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Postby Bill Duncan » 03/19/02 01:12 AM

variable,
Erdnase recommends keeping the tip of the first finger on top of the deck alongside the second and third fingers. You might try that on for size.

Many folks recommend curling the first finger underneath the deck with the fingernail touching the face of the bottom card. This prevents the all too common problem of the first finger poking out the front end of the pack and waving...

Which works best for you will depend on the size (and probably shape) of your hands and the type of cover you use for the pass.

I like the Marlo "wrist turn" cover so the finger underneath doesn't work well for me.

:)
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/19/02 09:43 AM

The Wrist Turn cover is for a Herrmann (Hofzinser) style Pass, not a classic Pass.
I USED to keep my left first finger curled under the deck, however it increases the pressure on the deck (in fact, on the entire thing) and so slowed down my shift! The idea is to hold the cards as loosely as possible, and the first finger curled under the deck totally screws that up.
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Postby Bill Duncan » 03/19/02 11:28 PM

The Wrist Turn cover is for a Herrmann (Hofzinser) style Pass, not a classic Pass.


I may be misunderstanding the criteria for a 'classic' pass. I understood it to generically mean the top half being pulled to the bottom as opposed to the bottom being moved to the top (ala the "Invisible Turnover Pass").
I use a wrist turn in a pass of that type. It was shown to me by John Carney some years ago in a discussion of covers for the classic pass. The deck is turned on edge (pinky break to the floor) and you remark something to the effect "your card is about half way down?" as you look down at the edge of the pack. You then look up and make eye contact as you execute the pass.

I USED to keep my left first finger curled under the deck...

So what's the best way to keep that finger from wagging? Curled around the side with the second and third fingers? Curled around the outer end?

I always found the curled finger made my hand feel cramped but I have pretty large hands...
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Postby Guest » 03/20/02 11:55 AM

Just adding my two penneth....

Someone mentioned the Gombert Pass. There's a discussion about this and some mod's in one of the Hierophants (I think it was 'The Last Hierophant' - and was called something like 'One Fantastic Move').

On a related note about cards being turned over during a pass....I had a move published in Jerry Sadowitz's 'The Crimp' which Jerry called 'The Derek Jones Move' (or something like that) which consisted of a one handed pass during which a card is reversed - much the same way as it appears to be happening with Aaron's two handed pass.

Cheers
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Postby Guest » 03/24/02 02:58 PM

I have found that when doing a classic pass as taught on Richards Pass tape, assuming that the deck is held in the left hand with right hand covering, If when executing the pass you DRAG your left little finger across the top card (of the bottom packet) as you pass the top stock to the bottom you can swing that card to the center REVERSED.

When practising this move I found it best to drag the card around with a half pass and then correct the bottom stock a split second after ( if this makes sense???). afterwards you can make this "Inverted Card pass" with very little movement and noise.

I have never seen this move in print.

By the way Richard I think your Pass tape was Excellent and I learned quite a lot from it.

If you know to whom this move belongs, Please let me know.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/24/02 08:29 PM

Wayman, almost every person who has learned the Pass has invented that reverse. I'm sure it has appeared in print somewhere, however there are better ways to reverse a card.
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Postby Guest » 03/25/02 11:43 AM

Thanks for the quick reply Richard.

You have a very nice site here, I found it quite by accident.

I dont use the reverse pass as I described to reverse a card during a routine ( they know your doing something but dont know what ) because I agree there are easier and simpler methods, so why make things complicated. The less I touch the cards the more magical it looks.
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Postby Guest » 03/26/02 06:00 AM

Richard, your last comment,"however there are better ways to reverse a card" is "right on". Not only for reversing a card - but I've found there are many ways - more efficient and more effective - to use instead of a pass. Isn't it funny - we spend countless hours looking for and developing an "invisible" pass - and then use misdirection to hide what you can't see? I hope that sentence makes sense. Anyway, thanks for letting me get in my opinion
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Postby Guest » 04/22/02 05:01 PM

Talking about riffle pass..which is one of my fav sleight, I think anyone who interested in this sleight should take a look of Peter Duffie's website..

http://www.peterduffie.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/video1.htm

That's a thing of real beauty!!!
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