What's the big Bottom Palm?

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » January 30th, 2006, 1:02 am

Hiza,

The Bottom Palm!

Its not a sleight I've ever really needed.
But I just found a use for it a while back.
So...I've been doing my homework and done some checking and experimenting.

I'm just wondering what the concensus is?

In the opinion of experienced users, what are the efficient and deceptive versions of the move around for single or multiple cards.

In fact if there is a 'classic Bottom Palm' which one would it be?

zapik

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby rage » January 30th, 2006, 2:11 am

nice topic! The bottom palm is one of my favorite moves.
The palm that i use, is the first version of the Erdnase bottom palm, with the improved handling as taught by Vernon in Revelations. It's hard to beat.
The gamblers cop is also a beautiful palm. In the right hands, and in the right setting, im convinced this might be the best one. Jennings was one of the best, he has plenty of material using this sleight.
You should also check out Alan Ackermans DVD on palming, it isnt the greatest at teaching the palms, but it shows some really good and natural looking bottom palms, it's worth a look.
Finally, not one bottom palm is good for all situations. I suggest learning more than one, besides, its a fun sleight to learn anyways. And im curious, what use have you found for it?
Hope this helps. :genii:
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Joe M. Turner » January 30th, 2006, 4:23 am

Michael Close has some excellent thinking on palming (particularly palming from the bottom or center of the deck) on his video "The Power of Palming," which is a resource worth consulting.

At 4F last year, England's David Jones demonstrated one-handed bottom palm (created by a friend of his) that was fantastic but not easy! It was the talk of the cardguys.

JMT

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Mike Masaveg » January 30th, 2006, 4:57 am

John Carney's dvd on palming also has great explaination of the bottom palm, as well as several other palms.

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Bill Wheeler » January 30th, 2006, 5:56 am

I learned the bottom palm from Bob White's DVD "Practical Card Palming". He runs through several, but was most impressed with his instruction of both of the Erdnase Bottom Palms. Its a good resource.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 30th, 2006, 8:12 am

The Bottom Palm which John Carney explains in his book (perhaps this is also the one he does on his DVD--can't recall) is Cliff Green's from his book Professional Card Magic. This is also one of the best Bottom Palms around, and it's not incredibly difficult to do as so many are.
The Jennings One-Hand Bottom Palm is excellent, but it hasn't been properly described in print (and seems excrutiatingly difficult because of this).
The original, of course, is by Hofzinser and it was just described in the November issue of Genii. It's a superb, well engineered method.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Pete Biro » January 30th, 2006, 9:05 am

I would guess the "gambler's cop" bottom palm is the best thing I have in my arsenal. I've been doing it for more years than I care to mention. And it may be the easiest move to do...the key is TIMING, body language and no guilt.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Bill Duncan » January 30th, 2006, 12:10 pm

Im rather fond of the idiosyncratic bottom palm from The Card Magic Of Le Paul myself, especially for multiple cards.

And a big loud second for Petes recommendation for the Gamblers Cop. When it comes to stealing or loading cards its darn near unbeatable because it requires almost zero tension to accomplish and as anyone who palms well will tell you a tight arm is your worst enemy.

I like the GC so much I do it with both hands

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Bill Wheeler » January 30th, 2006, 12:36 pm

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:

The Jennings One-Hand Bottom Palm is excellent, but it hasn't been properly described in print (and seems excrutiatingly difficult because of this).
I must agree here, it wasn't until I saw him perform it with "Ambidextrous Travellers" that I could put it all together and perform it reliably. Larry Jennings also has a nice variant of the bottom palm in the videos created by Duvivier a while ago (10 years maybe!?).
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 30th, 2006, 12:38 pm

The only person I've seen do the Gambler's Cop better than Larry Jennings was Tenkai (in a video). Had no idea Tenkai was using the technique--utterly natural.
The fact of the matter, though, is that the Gambler's Cop terrifies most cardmen and it's not easy to do well and guard your angles.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » January 30th, 2006, 12:59 pm

Dave Jones's one-hand bottom palm is based on Chris Power's origination.
Richard Kaufman has an excellent explanation of Cliff Green's bottom palm on his DVD ' Basic Card Technique'.

Brian Glover.

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » January 30th, 2006, 2:39 pm

Richard, if the Jennings One-Hand Bottom Palm
"hasn't been properly described in print"
can you think of anyone who could fix that?

Such a person would have to be an excellent describer of sleights in print, one who had known Larry Jennings, and thus knows how the Jennings One-Hand Bottom Palm ought to be done.

If such a person was either the editor of a magazine of conjuring, or an experienced publisher of magic books, with access to world-class illustrators like Earle Oakes, they would be ideal.

Can you think of anyone? I have one candidate in mind...

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 30th, 2006, 2:44 pm

Hi James, very funny.
The correct method will be in the third book of the Jennings Trilogy: Mr. Jennings Takes it Tough.
But, I can summarize it for you now (and this will only make sense if you are familiar with the method as published in either Classic Magic or The Cardwright).
First, the deck must have a longitudinal convex bridge.
After you have the deck gripped properly in your left hand (and that means the inner end is not resting on your palm, but elevated above it at the inner end by several inches), swing the inner end of the deck to the right as far as you can.
You will find that by having the deck elevated above your palm, and swinging the end to the right, your left pinky will have no trouble at all completing the rest of the action.
Tell me if it works!
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » January 30th, 2006, 2:45 pm

Check out Eric DeCamp's bottom palm, forget what he calls it, from his first lecture notes by Steve Schneiderman (sorry I can't recall the title). In these notes Eric tips his bottom palm, which, to me, beats out the Erdnase by a long shot; there is no left hand finger/hand movements at all. One just squares the decks in the hands and you have a card palmed in your left hand. It's a thing of beauty.

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby rage » January 30th, 2006, 3:01 pm

Richard, are you saying that the explanation in Classic Magic is not correct? :genii:
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » January 30th, 2006, 3:39 pm

Thanks, Richard, that's very good of you.

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Pete Biro » January 30th, 2006, 4:34 pm

Richard hasn't SEEN my Gambler's Cop 'cuz when I do it NOBODY knows or sees it. I often do it when I don't even need it.

I was in Nevada one time and Geno Munari brought an olde mechanic over to meet me and told me the gent had a great bottom deal. Which he demonstrated and it was great...he then handed me the deck and said, "What do you do?" I said, "Nothing like what you do," then handed him the deck right back == waited a few beats and showed him the card I had copped. He said, "Man you got me."

That was fun.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 30th, 2006, 5:07 pm

rage1: yes, the explanation in Classic Magic is not correct. That's true of a number of the sleights in the book. The Optical Add-On and the Stud Bottom Deal are also explained improperly.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 30th, 2006, 5:08 pm

Hey Pete, show it to me in Vegas next month. :)
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby rage » January 30th, 2006, 5:13 pm

Richard, how do these things happen? it kind of makes you wonder what else is wrong in all the other books.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Pete Biro » January 30th, 2006, 5:17 pm

You want wrong? Read you daily newspapers.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby rage » January 30th, 2006, 5:23 pm

you got that right pete!
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 30th, 2006, 8:05 pm

Mike Maxwell was an inexperienced writer who was not intimately familiar with Larry Jennings' work when he wrote both Classic Magic and The Cardwright. Jennings' work is very subtle, and it required spending many years sitting with him, much time videotaping him, and lots of additional time asking questions about why certain things worked a certain way. Maxwell didn't have the "face" time with Larry, or the experience as a writer of magic tricks, to get the stuff right. It's not really his fault--he wasn't the right guy for the job.
The Jennings' material is among the most difficult I've ever written up because there's so much going on. That's one of the reasons Mr. Jennings Takes It Easy has taken so long--even the EASY stuff is overloaded with detail.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » January 30th, 2006, 11:05 pm

I have tried it, (thanks again for the description)and so far, I have neither injured myself, nor sprayed the whole deck across the room.

But at the moment, the only way I could get away with it would be to hold a lit stick of dynamite in the other hand as misdirection. Not easy, but physically possible.

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Yves Tourigny » January 31st, 2006, 6:13 am

I think the best explanation in print of The LJ One-Hand Bottom Palm is in one of Micheal Close's Workers book. Either #4 or 5 (can't recall at the moment)in his routine Stupid Travellers.

Richard, I just can't wait for the Jennings' book as many others do I am sure. Could we expect the first volume this year?

Yves

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 31st, 2006, 7:47 am

Yves, that would be the second volume (first volume came out in 1997).
And the answer is yes: 2006.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Yves Tourigny » January 31st, 2006, 1:21 pm

Thank you Richard for your answer. That's great news indeed. Can't wait!!!! :D

Right now I am rediscovering ( if such a word exist) Derek Dingle's work and I am having a blast!!

Yves

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » February 1st, 2006, 1:12 pm

All fascinating replies.
...AND a whole host of knowledge here.

The sleight is somewhat new to me, and is my current little interest project.

I am exploring all the thinking I can find..

We all keep ourselves up to date by delving into new arenas I suppose.

I've been doing a lot of 'Cards to Pocket' in the last year or so, using a variety of top palms. Just to keep myself occupied I thought I'd start bottom palming just to ring some changes & keep my interest.
Well in truth I prefer top palms and then sleeving the signed pasteboardy thingys...followed by mass distribution to indiscriminent pockets etc, as per usual.

However it occurred/struck me that the bottom palm I have been using delivers the cards to my hand upside down, ideal for a standard colour change which I've never bothered doing before.

I have only ever really used the one Sankey dems, it's one from Erdnase I seem to remember.

...And thats where my current interest really took off. Just for an impromptu Colour Change!

I've checked out most of the standard bottom palms....and the one I use is....!

well sorry but I can't find one I like or enjoy, most are just belt and braces practical solutions.

I like a sleight to be invisible but also dynamic and fun to do.....the 'Classic Pass' and the 'Herman Turnover Pass' fit the bill here, as does the 'Side Steal', they all have a kind of poetry about them. Most bottom palms are practical and undoubtedly efficient. They pride themselves on involving no apparent movement of the fingers, and are fairly unimaginative lines drawn with stiff rulers between two points IMO.

The one I do, came about after study of existing principals and ideas and a few personal details.

ie. I am left handed, I have a technique for secretly repositioning cards in my left hand using index finger and little finger in pincer grip whilst cards are in palm and held at my side if needs be.

Whilst exploring Bottom Palms I have discovered I can bend my little(left)finger back whilst three other fingers are straight then lay the pack onto my fingers whilst using the other right hand as cover and holding a break under x amount of cards. Dropping the cards for bottom palming onto these left fingers, which then close in pincer movement, ie, the front of my little finger and the pad of my index finger, rotate the card/s effortlessly anti-clockwise into palm in my left hand whilst the right hand lifts deck into the same hand. It looks as if the pack is simply moved from the right hand into the left hand with excellent cover from the left, front and right sides.

Its working for me. No doubt I've reinvented the wheel. So tell me who came up with it first.

The advantages here are that the cards can be repositioned easily if needs be during the sleight by squaring the deck as it is handed from the right hand into the left hand, using the right hand as cover. The sleight misdirects the attention of audiences from the actual move by a. moving the deck from right to left hand, whilst also b. peforming an anti-clockwise body turn.

Apologies for such a turgid and inpenetrable description. Just my two cents worth.

:genii: ZapikO

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » February 7th, 2006, 7:57 am

this is a bit of a shame I was hoping to get feedback....

Oh well....

zapik

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 7th, 2006, 2:00 pm

Using the left pinky to rotate the cards under the deck is out of Erdnase. Vernon was famous for doing it this way.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » February 8th, 2006, 7:39 am

To be expected....

This use for the pinky is just too clever to have been missed.

Thank-you for the reply Richard.

zap

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Pete Biro » February 8th, 2006, 9:16 am

My only problem with that movement is it can be seen from the spectator's side. I prefer the left pinky pull down the inner right corner of the bottom card, then go South with cop, vs. a palm.
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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Guest » February 9th, 2006, 3:10 am

Hi Peter,

The move as I do it is done standing, and the move can't be seen by the spectators if the right hand and pack cover the action. This does mean standing the deck upright for a beat as you pass it from one hand to the other as the card is secretly rotated.

The worst angle for me, (I'm left handed), is from the left, but this is further covered by changing my body position and slightly twisting my upper torso to the left as the move happens. This much bigger movement choreographs great misdirection.

In truth it maybe isn't the best bottom palm, but I find it kinda cute and can work it, it suits my performing style...it doesn't need to do more than that I suppose.

The best & most efficient version I've ever seen, or become aware of, but maybe will never be able to do, is the one David Jones does. Its a one handed bottom palm; & is getting some interest on the message boards at the moment in fact.

I saw him do this a year or so back in person at a lecture. He has the big advantage of having hands that make a deck look small.

Best wishes
zap

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Nik Kyriakides » February 23rd, 2006, 7:02 am

I found it difficult to get an effective Jennings One-Hand Bottom Palm from the description in Classic Magic, and similarly found I couldn't get a proper understanding of the Optical Add-on there either, so I can appreciate Richard's comments above.

A bottom palm I like (but which I have yet to put to use) is Earnest Earick's from "By Forces Unseen". As I understand its evolution, it's a one-handed version of Vernon's handling of the Erdnase move. It requires a knack - especially in where to hold the deck - but it isn't too difficult to pick up the basics. Angles are pretty good, and it's also a lot of fun to do.

Practically no one I've spoken to is familiar with this move, although I know RP Wilson uses it. I'd be very curious to see Earick himself perform it: the book suggests he can do it completely invisibly. However, it stands to reason that the effectiveness of one-handed palms comes largely from misdirection which can be augmented by the other hand.

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Re: What's the big Bottom Palm?

Postby Steve Ehlers » February 23rd, 2006, 8:44 am

Earnie does the palm flawlessly. A good form of cover is to show the top card with the right hand as the palm is being made. The right arm covers any movement of the left fingers.

Steve


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