Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

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Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2003, 7:17 am

Just a thought...

1) Travellers
2) Coins to Glass
3) Cups and Balls

Very hard to decide...give it a try

Guest

Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2003, 7:55 am

Interesting question.

1. Symphony Of Rings
2. Spellbound
3. The Trick That Can't Be Explained

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Pete Biro » February 28th, 2003, 8:46 am

Easy, as I do these all the time...

Triumph (no improvements are worth study IMHO) :p
Twisting the Aces :)
Cups and Balls :genii:

(I have been told the Linking Ring routine was basically Cardini's and he never spoke with Vernon after it was published) :confused:
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2003, 9:00 am

Pete,
you were a shoe-in for Triumph!!! :)

The linking ring routine that Vernon published was Cardini's? Are you joking!

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 28th, 2003, 9:07 am

It's not a joke. While there are people who offer varying versions of the story, it is fairly clear that a large part of Vernon's Symphony of the Rings was created by Cardini and taught to Vernon by him.
The Cup and Ball routine is also supposed to have originated with someone else.
Vernon was NOT an originator: Triumph, Spellbound, Coins in Champaigne Glass, all of these things are simply his excellent VERSIONS of the material created by others. In the case of "Spellbound," the trick is virtually Edward Victor's to which Vernon added the Purse Palm. Most people don't even use the purse palm when they do it, yet they still refer to it as "Vernon's Spellbound." The big move that was original with Vernon was not included in the description in "Stars of Magic" either because he didn't want to explain it at that time, or because they felt it was too difficult, and this is the change using back clip that was published much later.
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » February 28th, 2003, 1:29 pm

I knew about the Victor/Spellbound thing...wasn't Coins to Champaigne Glass originally Edward Victor's also? What about the Coin Star? Was that Rosini's invention? or T. Nelson Downs? I believe Vernon contributed a simplified method that was published in The Book of Magic!

I thought for sure Triumph was a Vernon original.

There's a specific sequence or two in the cups and balls that's original to Vernon, but I'm not sure which ones...perhaps the opening phase where the balls vanish and appear back under the cups...and the phase where all three balls gather instantly under the center cup...

The wand spind was Mora's, but didn't he use a fan? And it was Vernon who adopted it as a vanish for the third ball in his opening C&B routine...

Please correct me if I'm wrong

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Eric DeCamps » February 28th, 2003, 6:34 pm

It is no secret that Mr. Pitchford had a major falling out with Mr. Vernon over the linking ring routine. Through the years I have heard several versions from magicians who were in the know at the time of how this happened. However, this is the first time I ever heard or read that Mr. Vernon was actually taught the body of the routine directly by Mr. Pitchford.

As far as the cups and balls routine is concerned it is no secret that the Mr. Vernons routine was not 100% original. Charlie Miller commenting to a dear friend of mine about Mr. Vernons cups and balls routine told him that the routine was not original. That Mr. Vernon had researched and compiled the best moves and structured the sequences into the finest routine around. It was also Mr. Millers contention that since the cups and balls trick had been around for hundreds and possibly thousands of years that it was highly unlikely that anyone living today would ever come up with a totally original routine.

Regarding the cups and balls, I believe the person of whom Richard is referencing was Louis Pops Krieger. There is a story that sometime after Mr. Kriegers passing his daughter witnessed a performance of Mr. Vernon doing the cups and balls and was very impressed by it because he did it on a table without the use of a table servante to hold and hide the small balls and the final loads. Apparently that was the method her father had used so successfully through his career.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Max Maven » February 28th, 2003, 6:57 pm

Eric, you write:
<< It is no secret that Mr. Pitchford had a major falling out with Mr. Vernon over the linking ring routine. Through the years I have heard several versions from magicians who were in the know at the time of how this happened. However, this is the first time I ever heard or read that Mr. Vernon was actually taught the body of the routine directly by Mr. Pitchford.

Perhaps that's because the statement is untrue.

The Vernon routine is not the Cardini routine. Rather, the former was an amalgamation of various moves and sequences that had been shown and traded over the years. As I have stated many times, Dai Vernon's brilliance was not as an inventor (although he had his moments), but as a synthesizer.

There is no question that some elements -- and likely important ones -- of the "Symphony" routine came from Cardini. But the notion that the entire routine was Cardini's, along with the suggestion that Cardini taught the routine to Vernon, is belied by the time-table of the events.

The Ganson pamphlet was published in 1958, but I'm unaware of any public complaint (which would have certainly ensued had the routine been proprietary; Cardini was not shy in expressing his opinions).

But that's not what happened. Instead, it seems likely that as time went on and the routine became known as "the Vernon routine," Cardini felt slighted -- legitimately so, but in response his claims became exaggerated.

I think that Charlie Miller's intelligent comments about The Professor's Cups & Balls routine (paraphrased by Eric in his preceding post) also apply to this Linking Ring routine.

Crediting is, to me, a very important issue. The current general attitude among magicians is woefully unconcerned. Half a century ago, this lack of concern was even more pronounced.

Without question, the "Symphony of the Rings" would have greatly benefited from detailed crediting. But transforming that lack of information into an unsubstantiated accusation of theft is irresponsible.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 28th, 2003, 7:15 pm

It is my understanding that Cardini taught his "Linking Ring" routine to Vernon in the basement of the Cardinis' house. It is also my understanding that while Cardini did not complain publically about it, he bitched a hell of lot in private.
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Pete Biro » February 28th, 2003, 10:20 pm

Vernon, like Kaps, or is it Kaps, like Vernon... took material and 'MADE IT WORK' -- brought it to the fore.

Both were mentors to many, and their influences have elevated the art of magic to a wonderful position.

Note: It was Cardini (Pitchford) that "discovered" and took advantage of the OVERSISED ring. He "discovered" an oversized ring working at Gamages, when the "shoddy" slum rings arrived, some larger than the rest.

I also believe (correct me if I have the wrong bloke), as young man, Pitchford was a pick pocket. He would put a sign up at a faire, "Watch for pickpockets... make sure your wallets are in a safe pocket." He would watch gentlemen check their wallets, so he would know where they were! :p
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Max Maven » March 1st, 2003, 2:02 pm

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
It is my understanding that Cardini taught his "Linking Ring" routine to Vernon in the basement of the Cardinis' house.
Richard, I have done specific research on this. As the story cropped up after both Cardini and The Professor were gone, I was obviously unable to ask either of them, but I have spoken to people who were friends with both and actively part of the New York scene at the time.

Let's put it this way: It is my understanding that your understanding is wrong.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » March 1st, 2003, 8:34 pm

Ah, if one lives long enough...

I'm delighted that issues of provenance are becoming more and more frequent and there are serious researchers (Alexander, Hatch, Ben, and Maven...to name a few)digging deeply into the Published Record and seeking other authentic documentation and evidence...plus seeking surviving witnesses or colleagues, though their testimony is likely to be somewhat flawed and always hearsay. The point is: Some magician-historians are really trying to figure out the fascinating way ancestral ties are and were made and how the creative continuum is and was formed.

Breaking down longer routines (such as cups and balls and linking rings) is really a bitch, requiring serious scholarship and access to whatever documentation exists.

I would love to know EXACTLY which aspect or element or move or sequence was Cardini's and which part provoked his ire.

Here are a couple of other examples (among hundreds):

I have a COPY of a letter written by Silent Mora regarding the use of a net to perform the small ball routine. Many people credit Vernon with the idea for using a net. Mora wrote that he was given the idea by a stage technician. Mora then started using the net. It was not his idea, but he became associated with it. In THE VERNON BOOK OF MAGIC, Ganson writes (p. 61): "Incidentally, the idea for using a net is Dai Vernon's own."

Did Vernon tell Ganson this?
Did Ganson misunderstand or misinterpret?Who knows?

The researcher cannot query Ganson or Vernon today.

They can only read the Silent Mora letter (if they have a copy) and THE VERNON BOOK OF MAGIC and then wonder?

I also have a letter penned by Louis Zingone expressing his displeasure over the fact that Hugard claimed credit for the One-Hand Top Palm, which he subsequently published in the CARD MANIPULATIONS SERIES.

The letter is legit.

But was Zingone telling the truth or simply venting?
Is there any other documentation that Zingone had such a technique? Are there any surviving corroborators?

At this point there is no way for ME to tell. Also, I never saw Hugard or Zingone perform. (I did see Zingone on film.) The only reason I might give credence to Zingone's claim is that he was probably a more adept cardman than Hugard and the sleight seems to fit Zingone's style and performing requirements.

Otherwise...

...who knows?

Onward...

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby El Mystico » July 18th, 2005, 6:43 am

Richard - you commented here that Triumph was not a Vernon origination; but didn't answer ChrisDavid's query on that...where did the Triumph effect originate?

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Ryan Matney » July 18th, 2005, 8:49 am

Just a guess, but did triumph originate with the gaffed version performed by Leipzig?
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Steve Bryant » July 18th, 2005, 8:53 am

Vernon did tell me directly that the title for Triumph was suggested by one of his sons (who was quite young at the time).

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby NikMikas » July 18th, 2005, 11:41 am

I have a COPY of a letter written by Silent Mora regarding the use of a net to perform the small ball routine. Many people credit Vernon with the idea for using a net. Mora wrote that he was given the idea by a stage technician. Mora then started using the net. It was not his idea, but he became associated with it. In THE VERNON BOOK OF MAGIC, Ganson writes (p. 61): "Incidentally, the idea for using a net is Dai Vernon's own."

Did Vernon tell Ganson this?
Did Ganson misunderstand or misinterpret?Who knows?

The researcher cannot query Ganson or Vernon today.

They can only read the Silent Mora letter (if they have a copy) and THE VERNON BOOK OF MAGIC and then wonder?
A sort review of the third volume of the Revelations videotapes (about 30:00 in) will answer that question.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » July 18th, 2005, 1:02 pm

Vernon attributed his development of the "Triumph Shuffle", and the Vernon "Multiple Shift", to inspiration from Jack McMillen. It seems that two of Jack's methods for the "Rising Cards" were the starting points for the two Vernon moves. One is quite famous, the "Plunger" principle. The other is less well-known. That is his "VooDoo Card Rise", re-invented in the nineties and included in "Spectacle".

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » July 18th, 2005, 3:37 pm

Originally posted by Ryan Matney:
Just a guess, but did triumph originate with the gaffed version performed by Leipzig?
Interesting thought. I'm not certain when he first started performing this, however there are other related effects that popped up while he was alive, so without further evidence, it's hard to say. You may wish to check out Wesley James' "Enchantments" for some of these credits. See the introduction to "Wishuffle".

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Vraagaard » July 19th, 2005, 12:36 am

Well, I guess despite of all the fuss about who invented what, that Vernon is still the professor because he made it look natural, he made it look simple, and actually made a lot of the effects simple. My Vernon favourites

1. Open Travellers (4 signed cards to 4 pockets)
2. Slow motion aces (4 ace matrix)
3. Kanguroo coins (probably inspired from Slydini - or it did inspire Slydini)

Oh boy, I do love Triumph (agree with Pete - no need for improvements on this one), and Twisting the aces too.

But what I love the most is Vernons small tips and hints to make a lot of moves look more natural and casual and how he thinks that into his routines - brilliant. The 4 ace layout in "slow motion aces" is a perfect example of this - wauv.

Beware that Vernons 6 ring version of "the linking rings" (mayby Cardini's) is a master piece for a lot of reasons - but especially one simple reason pops to mind. The K.. ring changes position constantly, so even when you know how it's done it is still a mystery. I've seen so many versions out there where the magician constantly holds the K.. ring in the right hand throughout the routine - thats a complete misunderstanding of how magic is supposed to be performed - but very logical to do - it should however be against the law to treat this effect that way. Vernon/Cardini made it go from hand to hand, up and down, in between and every where - this is a great version of the linking rings - and a true lesson in how to think magic routining.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Adrian Kuiper » July 19th, 2005, 6:17 am

Regarding the small balls and net routine....didn't Oscar Pladek, a local NJ magician, have something to do with that? I seem to recall some conversations many years ago.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 19th, 2005, 7:25 am

Oscar invented the double-ball steal, which was stolen and published by Marlo. Pladek's original handling was eventually published by Karl Fulves in Pallbearers (I believe).
Vernon did not use the Pladek move.
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Pete Biro » July 19th, 2005, 9:13 am

Probably the one thing I learned from The Professor was not a particular trick, but how to let the hand drop, relaxed, with a palmed card. The little soft swing action. A priceless tip.

We were both on the same show once, and at the time I was specializing in a Perverse Ring Routine... and backstage I noted that Vernon was holding his linking rings.

We discussed the problem with both of us doing the rings... and his advice was:

"Let me on first," Vernon said, "That way, your comedy routine will mean more after they have seen a classic presentation. It won't be as funny without the comparison."

He was right. My routine went better than it usually did.
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby John Smallie » July 19th, 2005, 10:18 am

For me it would have to be "given the Slip in Vernon chronicles #3. I't quick, clean and visual, with a certain elegance. Its only real drawback is that it is head on only.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby NCMarsh » July 19th, 2005, 10:30 am

Vraagaard,

enjoyed your post...a quick correction..."The Travellers: A Lesson in Misdirection" is the Vernon routine..."Open Travellers" is a routine by Larry Jennings...

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby John Carey » July 20th, 2005, 12:13 am

Hello,

My 3 favourite Vernon items are:
Emotional reaction from inner secrets
The airplaine card trick from the Vernon chronichles vol1
triumph-stars of magic

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » July 20th, 2005, 5:53 pm

#1. Out of sight...Out of Mind
#2. Cups & Balls
#3. Triumph

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Vraagaard » July 21st, 2005, 1:22 am

Originally posted by Nathan Coe Marsh:
Vraagaard,

enjoyed your post...a quick correction..."The Travelers: A Lesson in Misdirection" is the Vernon routine..."Open Travelers" is a routine by Larry Jennings...

best,

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Dear Nathan,

Thanks a lot - I like to get my references/credits straight.

I'm referring to the Dai Vernon revelations tapes where Vernon's method for handling 4 signed cards to 4 different pockets is called "Open Travellers". It might be a Larry Jennings routine originally - but anyways thats where I learned it. So I assume once again that Vernon fine tuned an aready brialliant routine into a simple master piece.

Isn't Larry Jennings "Invisible Palm" also referred to as "Travellers" - I don't know. It seems like these old marvellous classics has a lot of names.

By the way, on the Vernon revelations DVD's Michael Ammar performs a brilliant version of "Open travellers". Especially his opening "shift" and his p..... of the 3rd card is marvellous (very bold) - but it makes it all the more fun to perform.

The "professor" of these days and age?? In my book Tommy Wonder comes very close in his naturalness of handling and his flawless presentations. And moreover - he is truely an actor too. Just pure magic and pure drama to watch his close up performances. Just my humble opinion - and keep in mind - I haven't seen them all.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby NCMarsh » July 21st, 2005, 1:55 pm

Jan,

The routine to which you refer on Volume 3 of the Revelations tapes is "The Travellers," originally published in Stars of Magic.

"Open Travellers" was the name Larry Jennings used in Alton Sharpe's Expert Card Mysteries for the routine that, at the end of his life, he referred to as "Invisible Palm Aces." The name "Open Travellers" was first used by Ed Marlo for a 1962 assembly routine published in The New Phoenix.

The Loewy(sp?) palm is bold, but very effective. The cover published in Stars of Magic is only one of the two presented on the tape -- and I happen to like the version offered by Ammar...The description of the multiple shift in Stars of Magic is incorrect and incomplete...that said, if you like the routine, you should study the written source and -- if you have any taste for Vernon's material -- you really should read Stars of Magic.

The Revelations series offers a VERY worthwhile gloss on the written material...but it shouldn't replace it...

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Pete Biro » July 21st, 2005, 5:23 pm

Check out www.larryjennings.com A TREAT.
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby NikMikas » July 21st, 2005, 6:32 pm

The description of the multiple shift in Stars of Magic is incorrect and incomplete...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the method Ammar uses looks to be Carmen D'Amico's variation on the Vernon shift (which is taught in Ed Marlo's Revolutionary Card Technique. I'll let you find the chapter ;) ) As far as I know, the method in The Stars of Magic is pretty much the same as all the other written descriptions of the move. Perhaps Vernon just didn't recognize that variation when Ammar performed it in the Revelations tape. Or maybe there's more to it than is in print...

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby NCMarsh » July 21st, 2005, 7:28 pm

The description of the multiple shift in Stars of Magic reads, in part, as follows:

The left index finger pushes the Aces flush into the deck and simultaneously the right thumb and second finger undercuts all the cards except a few cards on the face of the pack. (emphasis mine)
Take a look at the illustration. What isn't made clear, I think -- based on my interpretation of the move, is that the left second finger and thumb must both be above the highest ace and that the lower talon is being pulled free of the aces as the Aces are being pushed flush with the upper talon.

The Aces never go flush with the deck and so I think that the phrase "The left index finger pushes the Aces flush into the deck" is very unclear.

I was wrong to say that the description of the move was "incorrect," Nik's post made me take a more careful look at the passage and I think I understand what was intended. It does, however, take some thought to fill in the blanks.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Vraagaard » July 21st, 2005, 11:49 pm

Thanks a lot, I will check up on stars and magic in due time, and also "revolutionary card technique". I do have the Lewis Ganson books on Vernon, but I realize that there is more in "stars and magic". In due time - it's always nice to have something to look forward to.

Thanks again for you advice.

Jan

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » July 22nd, 2005, 2:12 am

In reply to the original post:

1) One Handed Ace Cutting
2) Travellers
3) Twisting the Aces

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Gerald Deutsch » July 22nd, 2005, 7:44 am

My favorite Vernon effect is "The Unlimited Coinage of Silver" from the Dai Vernon Book of Magic.

It's a wonderful example of Perverse Magic.

During dinner I see a coin on the table which surprises me and I pick it up and put it in my pocket. Then I see another one - then another. I pick up a plate and there's a coin - then a cup, an ashtray ---. The coins are put into my pocket as quickly as I find them

Finally it's over. I try to relax. I take a roll from the breadbasket and break it open and - and there, in the roll is another coin.

I give up!!!

Great Perverse Magic!

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 22nd, 2005, 7:47 am

Originally posted by Gerald Deutsch:
My favorite Vernon effect is "The Unlimited Coinage of Silver" from the Dai Vernon Book of Magic.

It's a wonderful example of Perverse Magic....
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » July 25th, 2005, 11:16 am

Originally posted by El Mystico:
where did the Triumph effect originate?
The trick now known as Triumph originated with Sid Lorraine. His trick, which included the first description of the Slop Shuffle, was published in 1937 in Subtle Problems You Will Do by Stewart Judah and John Braun. A more popular source is The Royal Road to Card Magic by Jean Hugard and Frederick Braue. Lorraines trick was republished in that book as A Tipsy Trick.

When Dai Vernon contributed Triumph to Stars of Magic, he submitted a false shuffle that could be used To Maintain the Order of the Reds and Blacks or To Maintain the Order of the Entire Pack. The trick associated with the shuffle, along with the presentation, was added by the photographic interpreter, George Karger, and the editor, George Starke! Look at the photographs... The cards in EVERY photograph for Triumph are ALL face down. If Vernon was demonstrating a trick in which half the deck was FACE UP, wouldnt he have shown it in the photographs? All Vernon came up with was the false shuffling technique... The rest was added by Karger and Starke.

By the way, all of this information came from Ron Bauer, who got it DIRECTLY from Vernon.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby David Ben » July 25th, 2005, 12:20 pm

Although Mr. Bauer may have received information directly from Vernon, he/they may both be incorrect. The slop shuffle for example dates back at least until 1927 when Sid Lorraine was performing it at the IBM convention. The description of both the effect and the technique circulated widely by letter in the "underground". Further, the Triumph presentation, face-up/face down may have been inspired by other sources such as Arthur Finley's gimmicked deck approach (c 1920s), later replicated by U.F. Grant. Further, just because it was illustrated in a particular way does not mean it wasn't performed in another. For example, the text clearly sets out the face-up face down shuffle plot. The editing credit does not necessarily mean created by. Further, when this trick first appeared, it was advertised, in essence, as a piece from Vernon's repertoire, not just a sleight. Vernon most likely performed it for the various magic dealers he hung out with in New York, including U.F. Grant, which may account for Grant's inadvertent reinvention of the Finley handling. My reason for writing this is just to say, the origin of this effect, sleight, story, etc may, like many routines, not be so clear cut.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » July 25th, 2005, 1:53 pm

Im not exactly sure of the point youre trying to make. Maybe I should make myself clear. Mr. Vernon told Mr. Bauer that Karger and Starke added the trick to the description of the Triumph Shuffle without his knowledge. He was out of town when they were finishing up the write-up. Vernon made no claim of that presentation.

As to your various speculations about who did what and when, I really dont know anything about them. I have no facts regarding them.

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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 25th, 2005, 2:01 pm

I'm with David Ben, and I have good reason to doubt anything Ron Bauer says, since I've been personally involved with his manipulative dissemblings in the past.
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Re: Top 3 favorite Vernon routines

Postby Guest » July 25th, 2005, 2:16 pm

What do you mean? That doesnt fit with my experiences with Mr. Bauer at all.

P.S. I will probably see Mr. Bauer tonight. I will give him your regards.


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