So called Mexican Turnover??

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Tabman » 11/26/05 11:47 AM

Happy two days after US Turkey Day and peace to all worldwide!!!

Today I was just sitting here checking email and the Genii Forum and running through the two or three card tricks I stay current on but I got a little bored with it and started playing with Mexican Turnover for a few minutes. Since its a fun move to do I was trying to think of a way I could use it and then got to wondering if the move has any popularity.

I really couldnt come up with anything off the cuff except for an obvious need. Also since I was messing about with it on a slick surface I tried several ideas to anchor the card with my other hand using one finger and then using the other hand holding the deck which seemed more natural.

If anyone has any thoughts on this move it would be fun to read about it.

Who first started using the move, is it a matter of record???

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Postby John LeBlanc » 11/26/05 01:00 PM

In volume 4 of Card College, Giobbi mentions this move "is rumored to come directly from the streets, where it was said to be used by three-card-monte operators to separate reckless and unwary passersby from their money."

Giobbi's source is Roterberg's "New Era Card Tricks", although Giobbi also states "Roterberg's source for the sleight, however, is almost certainly Friedrich W. Conradi's "Der moderne Kartenkunstler", published a year earlier (1896) in Dresden, Germany."

The first time I ran across the move was via Karrell Fox's, "Another Book", where Karrell teaches his version which is used in the trick "Duazidu." I loved that trick and haven't thought about it in years.

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Postby Ian Kendall » 11/26/05 01:50 PM

I read a variation several years ago (perhaps by Maven) which involved holding the tabled card in place with your index finger, sliding the other card under the opposite long edge (forward jogged a centimeter or thereabouts) and then lifting the lower card straight up (as opposed to a fluid 'in the same direction' sweep). It makes the move possible on a slick surface.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 11/26/05 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
I read a variation several years ago (perhaps by Maven) which involved holding the tabled card in place with your index finger, sliding the other card under the opposite long edge (forward jogged a centimeter or thereabouts) and then lifting the lower card straight up (as opposed to a fluid 'in the same direction' sweep). It makes the move possible on a slick surface.

Take care, Ian
If only the memory would serve me better on this, but I have a vague rememberance that either Piet Forton or Ronald Wohl (Ravelli) did show me this variation way back in the early 1960s, but honestly I'm not sure :o

What I'm sure though is, that it goes back to these days..the 1960s where I first saw it done, the way Ian has described it...
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Postby Philippe Billot » 11/26/05 02:39 PM

Who knows where the Crandall's variation was first described ?

You can find it in Cardmagic, (1979), page 15 by Richard Kaufman or Duvivier Magic (1996), page 157 by Racherbaumer, but I don't know the original source.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 11/26/05 03:03 PM

Giobbi's source is Roterberg's "New Era Card Tricks", although Giobbi also states "Roterberg's source for the sleight, however, is almost certainly Friedrich W. Conradi's "Der moderne Kartenkunstler", published a year earlier (1896) in Dresden, Germany."
Conradi calls it "The American Strong Trick" (the book's in German, but this is his actual title), and he says it "has never been described in any book before" and is therefore "probably known to only a few people". As far as he knew it came from America.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 11/26/05 03:03 PM

Conradi described the so called "Mexican Turnover" in his DER MODERNE KARTENKNSTLER (1896)on page 16 under the "English"(!) title THE AMERICAN STRONG TRICK, and wrote that to his knowledge the sleight came from America!

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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 11/26/05 03:24 PM

You will find a wonderful DISRUPTED MEXICAN TURNOVER CHANGE in Jeff Busby BACK TO BACK (1977): the BROKEN TACO (!) based on a handling of the Mexican Turnover developed by Lyle Laughlin. It appeared in an article on the move in GENII, Nov. 1948, Vol.13 No.3, p. 82.

The "novelty" of a fingertip (second finger tip) at a corner handling you will find in Hugard/Braue EXPERT CARD TECHNIQUE (London, 1954) pp. 128 - 129.

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Postby Tabman » 11/26/05 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
I read a variation several years ago (perhaps by Maven) which involved holding the tabled card in place with your index finger, sliding the other card under the opposite long edge .....
That works super, Ian, thanks, very natural as you say. Did Max Maven mention the turnover move in Focus? I'll have to check when I get home tonight?

Mexican Turnover is a great name for a card sleight. I wonder who came up with it???

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Postby Guest » 11/26/05 04:53 PM

Yes sir, it is in Focus.
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Postby Tabman » 11/26/05 08:09 PM

Focus is one of the handfull of books I held on to when I sold off my book collection to help build the studio here in Tennessee. Glad to see you have it too. Much to be appreciated about the book down to and including the paper its printed on.

Max wrote it while a lot of us were hanging out on MAGIC! BBS http://questx.com/magic! some years back. Max was kind enough to autograph my copy and to mail it back to me. I think a lot of people think Max is an elitist but I see the thread of the common man running through there too!!!

I still havent been home to look at the book yet either. Trying to wrap up a video edit tonight so I can get back in the shop all day tomorrow to build a couple of tables and finish another to get them shipped out on Tuesday.

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Postby Pete Biro » 11/26/05 11:13 PM

Crandall taught me the move. He used a finger to hold the card as he often worked on slippery bar top surfaces.

I invented a variation that is very deceptive.

It is a two-phase switch that, if you figure it out from this and do it, it will fry most cardmen.

Crandall thought it was brilliant.

You hold the tabled card as mentioned, with your index finger. The card in the other hand comes over and slips under and you do the same move/action like a standard Mexican Turnover, switching the cards but DO NOT TURN OVER THE CARD... say, "ooops..." then you repeat the move but without switching (you already have) by just slowly and openly turning over the tabled card.

It takes only a fraction of a second but believe me it really looks strong.
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Postby Guest » 11/26/05 11:20 PM

Originally posted by -=tabman:
[Mexican Turnover is a great name for a card sleight. I wonder who came up with it???

-=tabman [/QB]
Erdnase refers to "Mexican Three Card Monte" on p. 74 of the Dover paperback , 122 of the original.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 11/27/05 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Crandall taught me the move. He used a finger to hold the card as he often worked on slippery bar top surfaces.

I invented a variation that is very deceptive.

It is a two-phase switch that, if you figure it out from this and do it, it will fry most cardmen.

Crandall thought it was brilliant.

You hold the tabled card as mentioned, with your index finger. The card in the other hand comes over and slips under and you do the same move/action like a standard Mexican Turnover, switching the cards but DO NOT TURN OVER THE CARD... say, "ooops..." then you repeat the move but without switching (you already have) by just slowly and openly turning over the tabled card.

It takes only a fraction of a second but believe me it really looks strong.
Pete,
That is just the move I mentioned inm my post above:
"You will find a wonderful DISRUPTED MEXICAN TURNOVER CHANGE in Jeff Busby BACK TO BACK (1977): the BROKEN TACO (!) based on a handling of the Mexican Turnover developed by Lyle Laughlin. It appeared in an article on the move in GENII, Nov. 1948, Vol.13 No.3, p. 82.

The "novelty" of a fingertip (second finger tip) at a corner handling you will find in Hugard/Braue EXPERT CARD TECHNIQUE (London, 1954) pp. 128 - 129"

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Postby Pete Biro » 11/27/05 12:41 PM

Makes mem wonder if Busby saw me do it (we were both in the same club in those days) and wrote it up without my credit?? All I know is that the NO CHANGE on the first go was totally mine after a session I had with Crandall. It came about by accident...

However, I am not denying the possibility that someone else would have come up with the same thing.

Another example is a move I created turning a double lifted card back over... then some time later discovered it was also created, independently, by Tamariz.
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Postby Countelmsley » 11/27/05 02:13 PM

Great effect on a jay Sankey tape from a few years ago; 12 face down cards (as in twelve hours of the day), you take one of the cards and ask the spec to tell you his favorite hour. You then do the turn-over of his thought-of card (hour) along with a wrist turn to turn both cards face-up. A great handling, I think, which was seen elsewhere (in "Focus" among others?). His thought-of card is a low number card. You then turn all the other cards which are seen to be court cards! Great effect though I forget on which tape it was. Anyone?
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 11/27/05 03:41 PM

Pete,

May be you have misunderstand me - may be it is my bad writing in English -
Jeff Bubsy has not(!) wrote that the Broken Tako is his variant, he told that it was published in GENII, Vol. 13, No.3, Nov. 1948, p. 82 by Lyle Carlyle Laughlin.
I quote from that GENII article with the title "Lyle Carlyle Laughlin dicusses The Mexican Turnover":
If you are working for a group of magicians, you can really worry them by not levering the card over with the first finger. Just go thru the moves and keep this finger still. You will lift the tabled card up, exchange it and then it will fall back. Then turn it over naturally and very slowly
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/27/05 04:23 PM

Thanks, I get it... Lyle's move sounds exactly the same as mine. Independent creation for sure. I have never put it into print, but that's OK, I might with a ref to the origingal.

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Postby Guest » 11/27/05 04:36 PM

For those so inclined, also check out Juan Tamiraz (SP) version of the MTO in I believe Sonata. I had the pleasure of watching Juan demonstrate this at his taping for Papa Joe here in Wichita. Take care all.
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Postby Guest » 11/28/05 04:16 AM

Funny I read this topic now.

About a week ago, I began playing with the idea of doing Color Monte on a table!

I'm not sure if anyone currently does it in this manner, but it eliminates the strange double lifts (which mind you were never much of a problem), and it's just different to be doing Color Monte on a table.

The Mexican turnover was about the best possible sleight I could come up with to do it in this manner.
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Postby Brian Marks » 11/28/05 10:19 AM

I have a feeling since 3 card monte was done on a table, color monte probably started there too. They probably added the double lifts so it could be done walk around. Just a guess.

The Mexican turnover is definatly a move I have seen 3 card monte people do in Times Square several years ago.
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Postby NCMarsh » 11/28/05 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:
Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
[b] I read a variation several years ago (perhaps by Maven) which involved holding the tabled card in place with your index finger, sliding the other card under the opposite long edge (forward jogged a centimeter or thereabouts) and then lifting the lower card straight up (as opposed to a fluid 'in the same direction' sweep). It makes the move possible on a slick surface.

Take care, Ian
If only the memory would serve me better on this, but I have a vague rememberance that either Piet Forton or Ronald Wohl (Ravelli) did show me this variation way back in the early 1960s, but honestly I'm not sure :o

What I'm sure though is, that it goes back to these days..the 1960s where I first saw it done, the way Ian has described it... [/b]
This handling of the change is Howard Schwarzman's and is published in his 1961 lecture notes Dynamic Deceptions: Close Up Magic by Howard Schwarzman.

From page 7:

The common error that is made when performing [the mexican turnover] is that of a sweeping motion in the action of switching the card as it is turned face up.
The best illusion is achieved when the card in hand is slipped under the tabled card gently and then raised straight up from the table as the switch is made. This best immitates the natural action of flipping over one card with the other. Perform the natural move without switching and study what happens. Then try to imitate this action while performing the switch.
Piet Forton and Howie are friends and it is very likely that you saw Piet doing it in the '60's having gotten it from Howie.

It does more than make the move possible on a slick surface -- the illusion is really strong.

I really like Biro's idea!! It is related to work by Tamariz (Sonata, "Study of the Mexican Turnover," pp. 47-51, and "The Peruvian Turnover" pp. 53-54).

cf., particularly, this from page 47:
If you perform a "feint" before you execute a Mexican Turnover, you can change the cards during the feint, without turning them face up. Later, you can slowly turn the card over, without any change, and the pass is 102% clearer. I have fooled-illusioned magicians with this method.
I cannot find dates in the text for Tamariz' development of this idea (and I'm sure that, like the double turndown that they (and others!) have developed (and which, ironically, also appears in Sonata) this is a case of independent invention)

Best,

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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 11/28/05 04:49 PM

Nathan Coe Marsh,

Please note that the "feint" was already described by Lyle Carlyle Laughlin in GENII, Vol. 13, No.3, Nov. 1948, p. 82!
I repeat:
I quote from that GENII article with the title "Lyle Carlyle Laughlin dicusses The Mexican Turnover":
If you are working for a group of magicians, you can really worry them by not levering the card over with the first finger. Just go thru the moves and keep this finger still. You will lift the tabled card up, exchange it and then it will fall back. Then turn it over naturally and very slowly

And regarding that index finger handling, I also repeat:
The "novelty" of a fingertip (second finger tip) at a corner handling you will find in Hugard/Braue EXPERT CARD TECHNIQUE (London, 1954) pp. 128 - 129.

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Postby NCMarsh » 11/28/05 10:20 PM

Reinhard,

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make -- nothing in my post attempts to contradict, in any way, the Laughlin credit.

I repeat (with emphasis):

It is related to work by Tamariz
and

this is a case of independent invention
No claim is ever made that Tamariz is first to the table.

best,
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Postby Guest » 11/29/05 02:07 AM

One idea you might want to play with; generally the Mexican turnover is done with a short side of the card nearest you; try it with a long side towards you, and do the change towards you....i.e. the card you are switching in starts closer to the spectator, and after the switch the card is closer to you - not the usual right to left handling.
People i've shown this to consider it more deceptive.
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Postby Jacky Kahan » 11/29/05 01:28 PM

Hello,
please find an overview of references related to the Mexican Turnover...
--------------------------

Conradi , DER MODERNE KARTENKNSTLER (1896)
on page 16

Card Tricks and how to do them
by A. Roterberg (1902)
Page 025 Mexican Turnover

The Linking Ring - Vol 21 No 09 Nov 1941
Page 35 Sucker Mexican Turnover ( Tony Kardyro )

Hay, Henry: The Amateur Magician's Handbook, Third Edition
1950, 1972 Henry Hay
Page 105 7. The Three Card Trick: Basic Monte explanation with pointers to references and the Mexican Turnover

Al Leech, Handbook of Card Sleights
Copyright 1954
Page 28 The Mexican Turnover

Hugard, Jean; Braue, Fred:
1954 Faber and Faber Limited,
Page 128 Mexican turnover

Basic Card Technique
By Anthony Norman
Copyright 1968
Page 34 The Mexican Turnover

Scarne, John: (as told to Audley Walsh): A Treatise on the Sucker Effects of Three Card Monte
1972, D. Robbins and Co. Inc.
Page 42 Mexican Turnover

Gross, Henry: Pure Magic! A Primer in Sleight of Hand
(c)1978 Henry Gross, published by Charles Scribner's Sons
Page 111 The Mexican Turnover

Cardmagic By Richard Kaufman
Copyright 1979
Page 015 A Maze Ing

Harry Lorayne, Best of Friends Volume I
Copyright 1982
Page 62 Mexican "Change" Turnover (Tom Mullica)

David Britland, Equinox
(c) 1985 - Martin Breese Publishing Ltd
Page 24. MEXICAN TURNOVER SWITCH

Apocalypse Vol 9 No 6 June 86
Page 1223 Open Choice (Bob King): card prediction effect using Mexican Turnover

Mike Maxwell, Randy Wakeman Presents
Copyright 1989
Page 127..........THE FOUR-CARD PUZZLER (In-The-Hands Mexican Turnover)

Edward Marlo, That's It
Copyright May 1990 by Edward Marlo
Page 33Multiple Mexican Turnover
Page 51Multiple Mexican Turnover - Application

Sonata (Bewitched Music vol I)
by Juan Tamariz
Copyright (c) 1991
page .. 47 Changes: Study for the Mexican Turnover

Colombini, Aldo: Impact
1991
Page 138 Mexican Turnover

Marlo, Edward, The Card Magic of Edward Marlo
1993, L&L Publishing
page 86 Multiple Mexican Turnovers

Apocalypse Vol 19 No 08 Aug 1996
page 2688 Ellipses...: Ripstoration, Senor Wences, Mexican Turnover, more palindromes

Magie Duvivier
Written by Jon Racherbaumer
Copyright 1996
Page 157 The Mexican Turnover

Giobbi, Roberto Giobbi: Card College 4
Copyright 2000
The Mexican Turnover

Haydn, Whit: Notes on Three-Card Monte
(c)2001 The School for Scoundrels
Page 49 Turnover Moves: Flip, Flip-Change, Mexican Turnover

Diamonds From Coal
By Peter Duffie & Robin Robertson
Copyright 2004
page 008 CHAPTER 2 - BATCH MEXICAN TURNOVER


----

Hope this helped...
Please let me know if you have some other sources... I would appreciate if you could add them here or @ www.magicbooks.be

Cheers
Jacky
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 11/29/05 02:42 PM

Jacky,

look thru the posts above, and you will find further sources!

and, in brief,
Cardiste No.11 (1958) p.15
Jinx #57, p.406
Hugard's Magic Monthly Vol.7, No. 3
Epilogue No.4,p.6,
Epilogue Special No.3, p.7
Epilogue Special No.2,p.9
The New Tops Vol. 23, No. 12, 1983, p. 39
Samelson: Theatrical Close-Up, p.85
GENII March 2000, pp. 71-72 (Crandall's handling)
Steranko On Cards, p.8

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Postby Jacky Kahan » 11/29/05 03:34 PM

Thanks Reinhard!

Jacky
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Postby NCMarsh » 11/29/05 03:53 PM

Jacky,

I noticed that you include a copyright date of 2005 for Sonata, has a new edition appeared recently?

All,

Reinhard was kind enough to write to me and point out that the idea of pinning the tabled card down with the finger to do the move on a slick surface appears in Expert Card Technique: Close-Up Table Magic. I should emphasize that Schwarzman's technique is different from that in ECT -- his contribution is not that the move can be done on a slick surface, it is that moving the rh straight up, rather than up and to the side, creates a very beautiful optical illusion and makes the move very convincing.

Given the dates and individuals involved it is likely that Werner saw Piet Forton performing the Schwarzman version.

Dom,

I just played around with your approach in the mirror and you are right, it creates a much better illusion than the traditional version.

Best,

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Postby Tabman » 11/29/05 08:13 PM

Yall are the greatest. Ive been on the road and just got to the south Georgia digs not even an hour ago and wanted to sign into Genii to see whats shakin and find a payload of MTO information waiting.

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Postby Jacky Kahan » 11/30/05 01:56 AM

Nathan, you are right i made a mistake it's 1991 for Sonata..(I'll Fix it in the original post)

Also, you should see Armando Lucero do a Mexican Turnover... it's the best i've ever seen, very convincing and it looks like the card is just turned over...and with only one hand...

With other magicians Many times the cards just flips in the air...

Jacky
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Postby NCMarsh » 11/30/05 08:49 AM

Jacky,

It wasn't intended as a correction, I thought that perhaps a new German edition had appeared.

Best,

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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 12/02/05 02:29 AM

For those, who are interested in applications of the Mexican TO:
In Jerry Sadowitz's THE CRIMP #50, p.457 is MEXICAN WAVE-->
The MTO is used in the context of in flipping a PACKET over!

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/02/05 09:20 AM

When I met Gene Maze in 1972 he was using the Mexican Turnover, and the Senator Crandall variation, to switch single cards, single cards within packets as the packets were turned over, and also entire packets.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/02/05 09:37 AM

I recall Ken Krenzel using the MT to manage multiple exchanges in one of his progressive ace assembly handlings. This was also seen in the 1970s down at the Governer cafeteria on Saturdays.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/02/05 10:43 AM

Yes, Jonathan, I remember that as well. I think he published the handling in Epilogue, possibly?
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Postby Joe Pecore » 12/02/05 01:11 PM

For those looking for more examples of using the MTO, Phil Goldstein/Max Maven used both a regular MTO and an MTO with a packet in "Jumping Bean Aces" (Scattershot booklet and Focus book) for a very effecient and nice four ace assembly effect.
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Postby Ryan Matney » 12/02/05 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
When I met Gene Maze in 1972 he was using the Mexican Turnover, and the Senator Crandall variation, to switch single cards, single cards within packets as the packets were turned over, and also entire packets.
If Sadowitz were in a cage, you would poke him with a stick wouldn't you? LOL Funniest post you ever made Richaard.


By the way, Peter Duffie published a packet mexican turnover effect in Alternative Card magic..I think that was the one. That has to be a pretty early published trick using it.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 12/03/05 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Brian Marks:
I have a feeling since 3 card monte was done on a table, color monte probably started there too. They probably added the double lifts so it could be done walk around. Just a guess.
Probably not, actually. The marketed version was always furnished with the "in the hands" instructions. If I'm not mistaken it was a development from a Marlo item that used a red ace, a black ace and a Joker.
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Postby Ryan Matney » 12/03/05 01:33 AM

I think the Marlo effect is in Ibidem.
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