What could this possibly mean?

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Postby Guest » 04/24/02 08:22 PM

On page 272 of Expert Card Technique, the authors are describing Vernon's Five Card Mental Force:

"...the nine of diamonds is never chosen being widely considered an unlucky card;"

WHAT?!? Where did that come from? I've never heard that! Have any of you guys heard that?

Steven Youell
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Postby Pete Biro » 04/24/02 11:12 PM

Nope, but when Vernon spoke THEY listened.

BTW ... a few gamblers told me the most named card whenever anyone asks someone to name one is the...

Should I tell you here?

No...

Guess (and I'll post the reply tomorrow night)

:confused:
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Postby John Pezzullo » 04/25/02 02:55 AM

Steven,

Follow this link for an answer to your question:

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/playing-cards/curse.html

Regards,

John
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Postby Guest » 04/25/02 05:00 AM

Wasn't it something to do with a magician Vernon knew who did an effect where he produced any card called for from a card index in his pockets.

After several years of performing, the cards became grubby and soiled from him handling them.

All except the nine of diamonds which nobody ever seemed to name.
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Postby Guest » 04/25/02 06:06 AM

All I know is that the trick works and works well. Never fails to leave them awestruck and since it is impromptu and can be done with a dog eared deck of cards.....perfect.

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat

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Postby Guest » 04/25/02 06:35 AM

Actually, the nine of diamonds is known as the Curse of Scotland.

Supposedly the Duke of Cumberland is supposed to have scribbled the order for "no quarter" to be given after the Battle of Culloden on a nine of diamonds playing card. (one of many supposed explanations for this moniker)

This is probably not as well known today, but in Vernon's time, more people were probably familiar with it.

Then again, I am only guessing.

PS - After posting, I reread the post that John Pezzulo posted and it lists several of the possibilities of why it is called the Curse of Scotland.
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Postby Alpen » 04/25/02 07:39 AM

Steven,

About the 9D, this is what I was told. Way back when, (if I remember correctly) Leipzig used to have a regular deck of cards which he only used for one effect. The effect was that people would name a card, and it would be removed and given to them (and I don't know about the rest of the effect.) However, after performing this effect for a year, and looking at the deck, every card in the deck was dirty from being handled, except the 9D. It seems that when people were asked to name a card, no one ever named the 9D in Leipzig's experience. That's why it is used as the fifth card in the Vernon 5-Card Mental Force.
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Postby Pete Biro » 04/25/02 07:56 AM

As promised... only early... (have to work late tonight)... the gambler told me the most often card "named" is...

The 4 of Clubs

(try it) :eek:
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Postby Guest » 04/28/02 05:36 PM

I've performed this effect so many times and can tell you that, for some reason or another, more people have chosen the nine over the four! :(

Maybe it had to do with something in the water that they drink :confused: but no matter, I stoped doing it!
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Postby Andru Luvisi » 04/29/02 07:12 AM

Hiya Steven, good to see you!

One idea I had to keep people from choosing the nine was to put all the others in proper allignment and orientation and have the nine slightly crooked. The important thing was to pay close attention to placing all of the other cards in just the right spot so they know that placing the nine out of alignment was deliberate.

I don't know if it works. I never tried it! :D But if any of you give it a shot let me know if it makes a difference....

Andru

http://www.practicenotincluded.com/
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Postby Curtis Kam » 04/29/02 10:59 AM

I may not have the most subtle solution, but it is a soluton: I tell 'em the nine is cursed: "And the nine, of course, is the infamous 'curse of Scotland'--but how would you know that?"

Now, either because they believe me and don't want anything to do with a curse, or because they don't want to pick a card that I fussed over that much, they go for the four.

This has worked pretty consistently for me, say 85%?

Of course, if they consistently go for the nine when you do it, the simple solution is to just change your prediction! In the end, it's the same trick, isn't it?
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Postby Guest » 04/29/02 01:34 PM

But I already have the four of hearts tatoo'd on my chest!

;)
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Postby Craig Matsuoka » 04/29/02 01:52 PM

I wonder what would happen if you replaced the 9D with a joker? It's so different from the other cards they might think you're trying to force it on them, so they skip it.

Of course, you could always paste a photo of Osama Bin Laden over the 9D. That should get the trick to near 100%. :eek:
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Postby Guest » 05/03/02 04:21 PM

This is a stupid trick.
:(
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Postby Simon Aronson » 05/03/02 06:10 PM

The real reason the Nine of Diamonds is rarely chosen is that it's the very bottom card of both the Aronson stack and the Tamariz stack. And no one is ever without one of those decks . . .
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Postby Guest » 05/03/02 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Simon Aronson:
The real reason the Nine of Diamonds is rarely chosen is that it's the very bottom card of both the Aronson stack and the Tamariz stack. And no one is ever without one of those decks . . .
You would be proud to know Mr. Aronson that I once was a member of a Magic Club that only had
53 members. Each of us had to have a different key card. I was the Nine of Diamonds.

BTW-- Pete Biro was the Joker...

Steven Youell
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Postby Pete Biro » 05/04/02 12:15 AM

Curses... foiled again... :eek:
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Postby Rafael Benatar » 05/04/02 11:14 AM

well, and I think it was Marlo's favorite card, wasn't it?
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 05/04/02 11:36 AM

Simon wrote
The real reason the Nine of Diamonds is rarely chosen is that it's the very bottom card of both the Aronson stack and the Tamariz stack.And no one is ever without one of those decks . . .
A favorite trick of mine, which I've mentioned before somewhere here on Genii, is Barrie Richardson's Any Card at Any Number. I use the Tamariz stack (sorry, Simon...) and have, as far as I recall, NEVER had anyone select the 9D. And I don't "force away" from it, as Barrie suggests in his instructions.

It's very interesting to me to note that Simon's stack also ends in 9D.
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Postby reed mcclintock » 05/04/02 12:58 PM

I am not sure about this but it seems to me that every spectator is different. Each with a different idea of what card they will select. I rarely ever get the four of clubs, and often times women will not say the queen of hearts. Which leads me to believe that some of these generalities are subject to the wording and where you live. Has a study ever been done on such a thing.
As for success I never miss because I use a nicola stack, I have the whole deck tattooed across my stomach. This makes it easy to remember the stack. I think I might be the only one in the world to have a whole deck tattooed on my stomach in a stack let me know. Also if you guys have any really neat ideas using Nicola please let me know you thaughts would be muchly appreciated. Thank you for you time in reading this post :cool:
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/04/02 08:26 PM

Reed: We gotta' see a photograph of the stack on your stomach!!!!
hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah
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Postby reed mcclintock » 05/04/02 08:47 PM

I go in on the 20th to get all of the shading finished, when it is complete I will snap a shot and get it to you. Right now it is just the outline. hmmm or I could send you a before and after shot that might look cool to. Keep in mind this is a really big tattoo. it is completely ribbon spread across my belly. If I bend over to touch my toes the cards shrink and if I lean back they get real big, visully very cool looking. Other odd things can be done also.
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Postby Curtis Kam » 05/04/02 09:08 PM

"Other odd things can be done also."

I actually, physically shudder to think about this. More ominous words were never spoken.

However, since you've got me....

Reed, how's about having one card face down in the spread? Force the duplicate, show that the card at the same position in the spread on your tatoo is also face down,and it's the same card.

I don't know anything about this, but what happens if you place one of those "24 hour" tatoos over a real one? Could you then change the card that's face down on your stomach?

The "shrinking cards" illusion you can do with the tattoo would be excellent misdirection to pull off the deck switch for "micro-macro"

I'm sure Simon Aronson could come up with something devistatingly clever using a Nikola stack on your stomach and a real deck in Aronson stack. So I'm not even going to try.

Other odd things can be done also.

By the way, why is "the world's greatest coin magician" tatooing cards on his stomach?
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Postby reed mcclintock » 05/04/02 09:36 PM

I like the ideas already flowing in for the tattoo nicola stack. This is great I didnt realize this was that novel. I must say I do have a force card floating above the stack on onside of my belly. the idea is to use that as a climax at some point. My desire is to develop a routine at the night club consisting of about 6 minutes with the stack and my belly. This fits my clientel. The last card of the spread is blank so far. very cool idea of putting a tmporary tatto there.hmmm Please keep the ideas coming. I really want something noone else can do I think I have the path layed thus far. Everyone is always talking about being original. lol
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Postby Guest » 05/05/02 01:26 AM

I have "The name of your card " tattooed on my ass
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Postby Elwood » 05/05/02 05:21 AM

If anyone is interested I make real good temporary card tattoos...bike size, realistic.

Go here: magictricks.co.uk forum to read what people in the UK thought of them.

You'll find them on my website. If anyone stateside is interested email me and we'll sort out a way of getting some to you.
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Postby Mike Powers » 05/05/02 03:42 PM

Marlo's favorite card was the Seven of Diamonds. Check out the cover of Marlo Without Tears. There are three meaningful items which are not obvious. 1) The seven of diamonds was Ed's favorite card. 2) The golden drop of liquid on the cover is there because Ed used Chamberlain's Golden Touch Oil to make his dry hands a little tacky. There's a third item...

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Postby Guest » 05/05/02 03:49 PM

While we're talking cards and arse, did anyone see that Paul Zenon special where he asked the spectator what their card was. They said "the queen of hearts" He said "Queen of hearts my arse" and pulled down his pants to show the QH tattoed to his bum. The sad thing was that he didn't clean his bum first.

URGHHHH!
:eek:
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/05/02 08:34 PM

Maybe it was just a shadow ...
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Postby Guest » 05/05/02 11:30 PM

Hoggings, Vernon in his youth when came to New York obtained fame for doing a " Think of a card act". He met Herbert Rooks ( sorry I dont remenber the exact spell) he had an act in which 3 cards were revealed,the first by a change, the secondappeared in the sleeve, and the last inside the cigarrete. The second trick was crads from pocket trick, where he used pocket index. The las was an escape of himsel from a very tiny box.
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Postby Guest » 05/05/02 11:38 PM

Hoggings, Vernon in his twenties, when came to New York obtained fame for doing a " Think of a card act". He met Herbert Brooks ( sorry I dont remenber the exact spell) he had an act in which 3 cards were revealed: the first by a change, the second appeared in the sleeve, and the last inside a cigarrete.
The second trick was cards from pocket trick, where he used pocket index.
The last was an escape of himself from a very tiny box. ( He was not very known because doing a escape trick much better than Houdini, Houdini did his way to boicot him, and only when Herbert discarded his escape trick that he attained widespread recognition).

The history was that Vernon met him backstage and asked him to see the pocket index and saw the most requested cards by its solied condition. and I supoose it helped him to determine the most asked cards from improving his " Think a card act".
And this is the history I know about.

(For more details about Brook's card to index trick look in Max Abrams book about Anemman).
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Postby Curtis Kam » 05/06/02 03:30 PM

Believe it or not, I think I can tie this thread together (altho the "pocket index" part will still be dangling loose)

The soultion to Steven's problem with forcing the four of hearts:

Tatoo the name of the force card to your eyelids, thus subliminally forcing the card whenever you blink.

Darren Brown, eat your heart out.
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Postby Carl Mercurio » 05/10/02 07:08 AM

The Nicola stack lives--quite brilliantly--in Penn & Teller's Vegas show at the Rio. And if I'm not mistaken, I think that Doc Boston used the Nicola stack as well for his wonderful any card at any number routine. Also check out the Garcia-Schindler book (I think it's called Magic with Cards), the Encyclopedia of Card Magic, and Pat Page's work with a stack for a lot of other entertaining stacked deck ideas. Jamy Ian Swiss also does a lot of excellent stacked deck work at Monday Night Magic in NYC.
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Postby reed mcclintock » 05/11/02 11:38 AM

Have you guys ever heard of roughing half of a nicola stack I just came up with some killer things stuff I did not see in encyclopedia of card tricks, Corinda, or cause for applause. Please let me know. thank you.
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Postby Pete Biro » 05/11/02 01:06 PM

OK, tattoo cards on your body... then have someone STAB you... what a closing trick! :D :D :D :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Postby George Olson » 05/11/02 02:24 PM

Reed
Did you show Pete?

I can't remember shrinking or expanding deck?

Don't you think the card stab would hust?

George
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Postby reed mcclintock » 05/12/02 02:45 AM

Actually Pete that is a Brilliant idea, imagine the spectators eyes, for the effect. This could be and amazing feat, heck even if you just placed the knife against your stomach and ripped the shirt around the blade. The memory to them is they got to stab a magician in the stomach and thier card was tattooed on the stomach, and the blade was on the card. This is so far one of the coolest ideas. I can only imagine the memory of the spectator for the rest of their life. Brilliant that is an effect worth working out. Thank you for a dynamic idea. :)
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Postby George Olson » 05/12/02 01:16 PM

Now, now Reed! :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:

Art thou pulling Sir Peter's chain?

I'll never tell.

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Postby Guest » 05/12/02 01:39 PM

Holy Cow, did I create the thread that won't die or what?

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Postby reed mcclintock » 05/12/02 01:46 PM

when it comes to magic especially a trick I really want to develop, I would not pull anyones chain I think this stabbed in the gut thing would be killer, no punn intended. I am trying to figure a way I can do it I will keep you posted.
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