Matrix/ chink a chink with just cards

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 11/10/04 09:59 PM

Just idea. A Roth style chink a chink but with four cards rather then coins. Like four aces.

A nice open ace assembly. I've been playing with the idea, It's kida half way between Open Travellers and Chink a Chink.
Any ideas?

Glenn
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Postby Bill Duncan » 11/10/04 11:59 PM

Michael Ammar
"Card Matrix" page 2. Encore II 1981

The cards are layed out over four coins with the expectation set for a standard coin assembly and then in an instant the card assemble.
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Postby Guest » 11/11/04 04:16 AM

The original idea is in Daley's notebooks.
It's detailed also the handling.
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Postby Guest » 11/11/04 08:01 AM

A Roth style chink a chink but with four cards rather then coins.
Check out:
Evening the Odds
from "Tricks of My Trade - The Magic of Doug Conn"
(Cummins, Fasdiu Press.)

The Ammar routine uses palming... I use the Roth/Bertram methodology (with playtime cards and a little something extra.)

"Tricks of My Trade" info/preview here
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Postby Randy Sager » 11/26/04 08:49 PM

This is just a pet peve of mine but I hate it when someone calles a Matrix effect chink a chink or visa versa. Same type of effect but different. to me anyway but that is just me. Sorry for the intruption now back to your regular scheduled program
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Postby Guest » 11/27/04 01:02 PM

That's kind of why I did. Well not to anoy ;) but because it seems to be a confused point for many. Although they are the same effect. Coins travel from four coners too one corner while being covered by an object.

Is it not the same effect whither you cover the coins with cards or your hands. The same thing happenes.
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Postby Tabman » 11/27/04 04:07 PM

Why not tear a card into quarters and lay it out and then really assemble it in the end.

-=tabman
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Postby Guest » 11/27/04 05:39 PM

Originally posted by -=tabman:
Why not tear a card into quarters and lay it out and then really assemble it in the end.
Derek Dingle did just that, as you probably know, although he was not the first to do so.

Cameron
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Postby Guest » 11/27/04 06:10 PM

Why does this continue to be politically correct-
incorrectness?

Would anyone call an effect, "spic-a-spic", "Kike-a-kike", or "_____a_____"?

I can still recall seeing a long-time performer at The Magic Castle, announce he will perform his favorite trick, "chink-a-chink", apparently oblivious to the reactions on the faces of the group of Asian women who made up much of the close-up gallery.
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Postby Steve Bryant » 11/27/04 06:24 PM

Does anyone know, for certain, if Chink-a-Chink really is a politically incorrect word, that is, its original meaning? "Chink" is also a real word with meanings that have nothing to do with Chinese. I'm not being coy here; I really don't know. Does anyone know the first time it was in print under that name? Was there a story that went with it?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/27/04 09:52 PM

In response to just such a thought as voiced by Diego Rivera, I retitled the Roth trick "The Original Chinese Coin Assembly" when I published it in ... (middle-age brain seizure!) CoinMagic and/or David Roth's Expert Coin Magic.
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Postby Bill Mullins » 11/28/04 01:06 AM

The Oxford English Dictionary has 12 different senses for "chink", with many sub-senses. Only one refers to Asians, and it isn't known before 1901.

Two which may be relevant to the origin of the trick name:

4.noun. A humorous colloquial term for money in the form of coin; ready cash.
Exceedingly common in the dramatists and in songs of the 17th c.; now rather slangy or vulgar.

2. verb trans. To cause (things) to make this sound by striking them together; esp. coins.
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Postby Guest » 11/28/04 01:28 AM

You could also find non-slurring uses of the word, n_____, but I doubt most, would use it in their patter...but then...there are some bozos out there.
Like most slang/slurs, the test is would you use that word directly to that person?

GENII correspondent Placidio, reminds us that 60 years ago, the original editor of this magazine, wrote an editorial (during WWII) how it would be appropiate to use words like chinese, rather than chink....then decades later, his son wrote how the title, "Japanese Box", not "Jap Box" is the proper label.
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Postby Temperance » 11/28/04 03:47 AM

See chink-a-chink aces by Peter Kane (A Further Card Session)
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Postby Guest » 11/29/04 03:56 PM

I was always told that it refered to the sound of coins coming together. Thought it was kinda ovious. Like chink, clink, tink, ding, dang, dong, thud, thwap or anyother 'sound words.'
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Postby Guest » 11/29/04 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Glenn West:
'sound words.'
Onomatopoeias!
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Postby Brad Jeffers » 11/30/04 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Glenn West:
I was always told that it refered to the sound of coins coming together. Thought it was kinda ovious. Like chink, clink, tink, ding, dang, dong, thud, thwap or anyother 'sound words.'
The original version of the trick we know as Chink-a-Chink was done with cubes of sugar. The use of coins was of course introduced by David Roth. Therefore the sound of coins clinking together would have had nothing to do with calling the trick Chink-a-Chink.

The first time I came across the term Chink-a-Chink was the Mohammed Bey (Leo Horowitz) routine in Stars of Magic. The trick is also closely associated with Max Malini, but I don't know who coined the term Chink-a-Chink.

On his Expert Coin Magic video, David Roth says, "the effect is also known as Chink-a-Chink, because this is said to be the the sound the magician made while performing it."
I took this to mean a sound the magician made with his mouth, sort of to accentuate the mysterious actions of the sugar cubes.
I also felt this was probably said in order to divert any thoughts that the title of the trick may have actually been based on an ethic slur.

Anyway, whether you perform Chink-a-Chink with sugar cubes, bottle caps, dice or coins, the objects themselves should make no noise. They move around silently.

One other point about Richard changing the name of the trick (in the Roth book). His intent was good, but I think that changing a trick that is commonly known as Chink-a-Chink to The Original Chinese Coin Assembly just furthers the association of the two words chink and Chinese. Why not just call it The Original Coin Assembly. After all, I don't think the trick was written up using Chinese coins!
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 11/30/04 06:00 PM

In "Malini and his Magic" Vernon says that Malini used to say "chink-a-chink" as he did the trick with sugar cubes, and that he taught it to Sam Horowitz. I would go with the idea that it was used like a magic word rather than an imitation of the sound of coins. It seems a bit unlikely that it could have been intended as a racist slur.

There's a sort of Chink-a-Chink with cards or Open Travellers/Invisible Palm Aces effect in "Pasteboard Presentations" (Terry LaGerould) where three aces pass up through the table to join the fourth.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/30/04 08:42 PM

The question I've always found more interesting is what came first: Yank Hoe's "Sympathetic Coins" or "Chink a Chink" with sugar cubes (or bottlecaps, or whatever).
If "Sympathetic Coins" came first, then the notion that the "chink" was the sound of coins is not as far fetched as it might otherwise be.
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Postby Guest » 12/01/04 02:23 AM

How much noise sugar cubes could actually create, may not live up to creating a "chink" sound.
I'll leave the history of finger-flinging to others, but my earliest viewings of the effect was with chinese coins, maybe with chinese letters or images in ads, to market the effect.(maybe, I'm not sure)
Which got me when I saw a performer use bottle caps at The Castle, and use the same name...only magicians would know or care the meaning of the effect's title.
Words like jig, shy, wop, have been used in harmless ways...but would they be included in patter today?
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Postby Matthew Field » 12/01/04 05:01 AM

Bravo, Diego Domingo.

(Also bravo to Diego Rivera.)

Now, about the Bra Trick . . .

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/01/04 08:28 AM

I don't think there's any question that Chinese spectator's might wince when hearing a magician start talking about "chinks" when doing a trick.
So what's your point, Domingo?
Yes, magicians should probably not use that patter unless they want to take the risk of alienating part of their audience.
I think few magicians know that the original version of the "Tree of Hearts" trick was the "Tree of Spades" with little Sambo faces in a tree. I don't think anyone is doing the original version of the trick anymore and with good reason. (Ed Marlo, by the way, is said to have been the one who changed the Spades to Hearts.)
However no one had to have a discussion about whether it was still okay to do the "Tree of Spades" trick!
The real issue here is what the word "chink" refers to in regard to the trick. And until that can be answered, there really is no point in discussing it further. So, if someone wants to do a bit of research ...
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/01/04 09:13 AM

For those who wish to be a bit more progressive:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... hing+Ching

There is also a lovely interpretation of a symbol from the I-ching that could be used as an introduction to the trick. The basic idea of that one is how the walls of a city stay the same while what's inside the city moves around.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/01/04 12:19 PM

Does anyone use the little black baby bunny that comes in the set of multiplying rabbits? Does it still come in the sets?
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Postby Guest » 12/01/04 02:39 PM

Brad,
I had not heard of that before...are you serious? Have you seen a set?
Generations ago, a familiar routine after borrowing a man's hat for a trick, the spectator would be asked some shtick about his married life...with the pay-off pulling a black baby-doll from his hat. (True!)
So what's the point, Kaufman? That as you just noted, some should be more aware of what they are saying, and how it is perceived and received. The fact that "Three of Spades" was turned into a non-offensive "Three of Hearts", out of concern for others, unfortunately shows like consideration, isn't done for all. Again, a remaining politically correct-tolerated incorrectness, exists for others.

I thought to make this point, because someone should, and no one else did.
So that's the point.
Now back to that coin trick....
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/01/04 04:21 PM

I believe the original Nelson rabbits came with one black rabbit. The set of Goshman rabbits (the red bunnies that came in the box) also came with one black bunny. I bought mine in the 80's. I think we were supposed to make a comment about "the postman." I believe that was actually in the instruction sheet at the time.
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Postby Guest » 12/01/04 05:42 PM

Right now, I have some old,(1940's/50's) boxes with "Adam's Multiplying Rabbits" - "A Nelson Creation", and the instructions and contents give no indication of a black bunny being in there. I will check with one long time friend of Nelson's, to see if it was different, before Nelson sold Adams the rights, in the 1940's.
Incidently, the Adam's instructions have not been changed since the 1940's.
Don't know about Goshman, but haven't seen/heard anything regarding Nelson's product having a black bunny.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/01/04 07:03 PM

I believe it was Max Maven who told me about the original bunny. But I may have misunderstood. I can say with certainty, however, that the Goshman sets did come as I have described.
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Postby Bill Wheeler » 12/02/04 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Brad Henderson:
I think we were supposed to make a comment about "the postman." I believe that was actually in the instruction sheet at the time.
Frank Everheart had a line regarding the black bunny....its in "The Magic of Matt Schulien."

Yet another skeleton in the closet of magic.

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/02/04 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Bill Wheeler:
...Yet another skeleton in the closet of magic.
Perhaps we might raise and mock these old things on Halloween.

Perhaps a simultaneous showing of Mommy Dearest and a Houdini sance would be appropriate?

It's not where we were, it's where we want to go now that counts. We are where we are. Where do you want to go today?
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Postby Guest » 12/02/04 08:21 AM

The question I've always found more interesting is what came first: Yank Hoe's "Sympathetic Coins" or "Chink a Chink" with sugar cubes (or bottlecaps, or whatever).
If "Sympathetic Coins" came first, then the notion that the "chink" was the sound of coins is not as far fetched as it might otherwise be.
Some interesting info on the Assembly plot...

Predating Hoe is "3 Capuchins" (Eln Blik in "Doebler's and Dosles ZAuberkabin" 1832) In this (also politically incorrect) plot, 3 nun figurines join a priest; this is done under cover of plates.)

Honorable mention;

"The Invisible Transfer" from
"What Shall we do tonight"
used for corks and a hanky.
I don't have the exact date on this... but it was published prior to the Hoe effect (sometime in the 1800's)

That's the scoop,
Conn

PS:
Thanks to DME for the above info (he sent it my way a few years back when I was considering a Matrix/Chink DVD.)
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Postby Bill Wheeler » 12/02/04 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Originally posted by Bill Wheeler:
[qb] It's not where we were, it's where we want to go now that counts. We are where we are. Where do you want to go today?
Before I begin, let me say all of this definitely needs to be on another board. At first I agreed with you Jonathan, and I suspect many others will do so to.

But I think I speak for others who look at magic another way. What appeals to them is the rich history of magic. From the briliant creators like Stewart James to people who literally saved others work from being lost like Dai Vernon; I love reading and absorbing this history.

And of course there were ugly & unpleasant episodes. Whether it was every bit of Don Alan's act being fleeced. Bert Allerton's and Francis Carlyle's alcoholism, or racism in magic. Do I dwell on these things...no, but wether good or bad, these elements are the history of our art too.

Perhaps it sounds dumb, but when I learned certain effects it wasn't to be adored by fans & peers alike or represent the future of magic, but rather to have it act as a touchstone to the past masters. So while there are others blazing magic ahead (both interesting and uninteresting). I'm comfortable looking at the history of magic accepting both the good and the bad. I'll leave the cutting edge for others...the inspiration for my magic is loving our past.

Loving magic warts and all

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/02/04 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Bill Wheeler:
... What appeals to them is the rich history of magic.
No problem with corn god rituals and such here either. We have quite a written history and it's important to preserve it, and for some of us, to relate to it.

Just today a note went out to some folks about the earliest cups and balls routine descriptions in print. This dates back to ancient Greece. Wonderful stuff. That and ongoing studies of some material that dates back to early last century makes it all the more amusing find that one has started something that remains a current topic of invention and study.

I was merely suggesting that the skeletons in our closet might OPENLY be addressed and mocked on occasion. This would provide some means to air out the closet and perhaps relegate other things to that closet.

Do we still advocate brassieres? Perhaps the twentieth century brassiere trick is ready to go away? Tricks with cigarettes in general? Sort of a spiritual housecleaning event. Thimbles? Sure they are fun to play with though the Singer stores seem to fading away. Perhaps thimbles might retire to our closet as well. How are we doing with "oriental" stuff? Have people given up on mocking the Chinese, Japanese... by dressing funny and speaking in broken English? Maybe it's time to retire the pigtails, buck teeth general Fu Manchu stuff to the same part of the closet as the Sambo stuff.

How about that sponge ding-dong? Perhaps it still works for a Viagra related presentation. These days though, you put that in a woman's hand and she might just look you up and down, then jokingly say... "you wish you were that size".

On a tangent now: That trick with the little statues of a nun and some gents might be very cute if done with those toys called Weebles. Probably a good idea to use a different presentation though. Yes, there is a nun weeble, and a priest weeble and construction workers and children too. Lots of room for presentations. Perhaps someone clever might engineer a weeble shell?
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Postby Guest » 12/03/04 04:55 AM

I know the thread's moved on somewhat but as someone of chinese descent, I thought I'd just point out that I personally do not find the title 'chink-a-chink' offensive at all. I've always thought that 'chink' referred to the coins and the sounds that they made. In any case, sticks and stones...
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Postby Bill Mullins » 12/03/04 12:09 PM

Originally posted by James Leong:
I know the thread's moved on somewhat but as someone of chinese descent, I thought I'd just point out that I personally do not find the title 'chink-a-chink' offensive at all.
Quite often, when the PC police get hot and bothered about a phrase, it isn't because someone of the "offended" group was truly offended. It is because of fear that someone might be offended, or because they (the PC Police) want to show how sensitive they are. I am reminded of the member of the staff of the mayor of Washington DC who had to resign (or was fired) several years ago, because he used the word "niggardly".
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Postby Guest » 12/04/04 08:18 AM

Back to the original topic, regardless of its name...John Carney has an excellent routine called Bull Session that is in Carneycopia. The four aces travel one at a time to different corners.
Lennart Green also has a nice idea where he puts the coins on top of the cards, and as that happens the cards vanish...the leader coin is picked up and the ace underneath is moved to show that all four aces are at that corner!
owen
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Postby Guest » 02/01/06 02:52 PM

Well here's something I came up with on the idea;

http://www.sleightgeek.com/forum/index. ... topic=1380
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Postby Ian Kendall » 02/02/06 03:40 AM

I'm told that Jerry mentions 'Chink a Chink' in his show and draws attention to the possible misinterpritation of it (I don't know for sure, cos I'm not allowed in his shows...)

As for the card matrix idea, Mark Leveridge used to have that routine where four aces were laid out in a square, and they were briefly covered with two jumbo cards. The Jumbo cards could be shown front and back between the vanishes, and the aces gathered in one corner. As a kicker, the pips on the aces had gathered onto one card, and the other three were blank.

I sold mine many years ago, and I think Mark discontinued it. Someone might remember the name of the routine?

Take care, Ian
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Postby Steve Hook » 02/02/06 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
Quite often, when the PC police get hot and bothered about a phrase, it isn't because someone of the "offended" group was truly offended. It is because of fear that someone might be offended, or because they (the PC Police) want to show how sensitive they are. I am reminded of the member of the staff of the mayor of Washington DC who had to resign (or was fired) several years ago, because he used the word "niggardly".
Great point, Bill. Some of the comments which have been posted here would be funny if they weren't so misguided.

(And try Wikipedia for "niggardly" to see how misguided that DC story was. The origin of the word is from North Germanic languages until the middle of the 14th century, long before the US existed and even longer before the US had racists!)

Sorry, Diego, but I vote with James Leong and others that the "chink" is the recreation of the sound of the coins hitting and, eventually, the actual sound of the coins hitting. [Note: Do we agree that "Chink a chink"-ing sugar cubes also has nothing to do with those of Chinese ancestry?]

Apparently the word comes from Old or Middle English. We shouldn't have to quit using a word because a few boneheads use it in some idiomatically inappropriate way.

Can you imagine calling "Car Talk", describing the sound of two metal car parts hitting as "a chink sound", and having Tom or Ray tell you not to use that word on their show? No.

To me, seems fine in magic, too.
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Postby Steve Hook » 02/02/06 03:24 PM

PS: Glenn: That'll teach you to ask questions at Genii Forum!
;)
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