Ten-Card Poker

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Postby Guest » 05/26/03 01:52 AM

I've just discovered a trick that someone told me was called Ten-Card Poker, where you play poker with a ten-card stack. You always win, no matter that the spectator deals eight out of ten cards, even when you let them deal them face-up.

I'm looking for both the origins of this trick and other appearances of this trick in the literature. Any advice on where to look?
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Postby Guest » 05/26/03 02:22 AM

In Paul Curry's Worlds Beyond, there's an effect called Cider! based on that principle. Not only is it a neat effect, but it quotes Damon Runyon too (and hence the title of the effect), and he's probably my favourite author of all time.

And the book states that The stunt on which this effect is based has a hazy history. Indications are that it has been around for a long time, but its origin, as far as I know, has never been traced. So if a book with extremely thorough crediting and cross-referencing makes that remark, maybe your search for its orgins may prove fruitless. But that's merely speculation on my part - I'm no expert at all on such things.

And here's a link to another effect using that principle: The world\'s worst card player by Scott Guinn.

Dave
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 05/26/03 02:34 AM

Darwin Ortiz has an effect called Mexican Poker in At the Card Table I believe, it is on the Card Table videos for sure, which is of the same vane. It is excellent and the spectator does "all" of the work. They even get to shuffle the cards twice during the presentation, and you do not cut or reshuffle after them. I believe Harry Loryane has a ten card poker effect as well, however the spectator does not shuffle, but has other strong points.

Check into the Ortiz version it is well worth it.

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Postby Guest » 05/26/03 07:38 AM

The expert on this would be Bob Farmer, who has collected everything in or out of print on Ten Card Poker Deal. Write him here and ask for help!

Best, PSC
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Postby John Smetana » 05/26/03 11:39 AM

The best 10 card poker deal routine I've ever had the pleasure to witness and perform is Bruce Bernsteins"Psych-Out"
One of the very few, or perhaps the only one, that builds with each successive phase. It's really a killer effect.

Best thoughts,
John Smetana
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Postby Gary Freed » 05/27/03 09:59 AM

I've worked with many 10 card poker deals but have grown to prefer the "floating Jonah" used in the 20( ;) ) card poker deal. There is no key card to keep track of and spectator can do all the shuffling!

The Cincinnati Kid (Binarelli) is the starting point for a routine I've modified and been using successfully for years!
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Postby Guest » 05/28/03 01:53 AM

In "Magic", May, 1994, Bob Farmer wrote: "There is no question that Nick Trost invented the first significant improvement in the method for this effect: the morphing Jonah [...]". In "The Card Magic of Nick Trost", there's a strong combination of effects ("Twenty-Deck Poker Deal", pag. 245), where you "build" a gimmicked deck of cards (Mr. Trost suggests the Jack Daniel's Playing Cards manufactured by Hoyle Products). It's soooo good, you won't believe your eyes. The perfect poker demonstration with a spectator, imho.
Regards,

Andrea
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Postby cataquet » 05/28/03 02:03 AM

David, you should check the previous threads that have dealt with the 10 card poker deal:
Poker Deals
Ten Card Poker Deal

Bob Farmer also wrote up a few 10 card black jack deals (all of which have appeared in this year's Genii). There's some great thinking here.

Bye for now

Harold
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Postby Matthew Field » 05/28/03 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Harold Cataquet:
Bob Farmer also wrote up a few 10 card black jack deals (all of which have appeared in this year's Genii).
Yes, Bob wrote up the blackjack stacks, but they were developed by the self-effacing Harold Cataquet (with some help from another mastermind, Tomas Blomberg).

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Postby Guest » 05/28/03 01:12 PM

The best 10 card poker deal routine I've ever had the pleasure to witness and perform is Bruce Bernsteins"Psych-Out"
One of the very few, or perhaps the only one, that builds with each successive phase. It's really a killer effect.

Best thoughts,
John Smetana
I don't know if it is new or even published, but the multi-phased 10 Card Poker Deal Allan Ackerman performed at this year's TSD Convention was about the best routine I've seen him perform, (and I've seen a lot of Allan's stuff) and entertained and befuddled the crowd to no end.

Each phase built upon the other, seemingly fairer and fairer. Most importantly, Allan eliminated the "challenge" aspect in the effect, a common weakness -- in other words, he didn't make the person on stage feel like an ass.

--Randy Campbell
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Postby cataquet » 05/28/03 01:50 PM

Thanks for the plug, Matt, but Bob had the idea of a 10 card BlackJack deal. I just found out which cards worked.

In the context of the full deck BlackJack stack, where I did a lot of analysis, you can just use 13 cards from the stack and have the dealer always win, but this effect plays much better if you work the whole deck.

Bye for now

Harold
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Postby Guest » 08/01/05 11:54 AM

Originally posted by David Groves:
I'm looking for both the origins of this trick and other appearances of this trick in the literature. Any advice on where to look?
I was just looking through Scarne on Card Tricks and noticed the Ten-Card Poker Deal principle of the Jonah Card appears in the trick "The Dean's Poker Deal." This was published in 1950.

I only add this for completeness sake, since my search on the Forum did not yield this reference.
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Postby Pete Biro » 08/01/05 01:07 PM

Glad to see this thread... now I gotta get to work on it.
Stay tooned.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 08/02/05 02:25 PM

Originally posted by David Groves:
I'm looking for both the origins of this trick and other appearances of this trick in the literature. Any advice on where to look?
Walter Gibson's "Complete Illustrated Book of Card Magic" (1969) has a couple of versions of what he calls the Three Jack Deal. He also says there was a version in his "Magicians' Manual" about 30 years previously.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 08/02/05 04:25 PM

I believe the "Three Jack Deal" is a completely different effect: two hands are repeatedly dealt and the magician always gets three jacks.

In the fall, I will be publishing THE BAMMO TEN CARD DEAL DOSSIER which will include a complete history of the effect, many new routines (as well as all the classic routines) and the most extensive reference list ever published.
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Postby David Acer » 08/02/05 08:17 PM

Harry Lorayne's "Ten Card Poker Deal" is an excellent, real-world approach to the plot (and in my opinion one of the best tricks he's ever published). You can find it in both Decksterity (www.tannens.com/cart/cat172.htmland) and The Classic Collection.

Apart from that, I second Gary Freed - Tony Binarelli's "Cincinnatti Kid Poker Deal" is worth your attention (Gary Ouellet used to use it at magic conventions to fry his fellow magi). Check it out in Class Act (www.camirandmagic.com/ps_004.html).

Finally, if you'd rather just sit back and wait for a "Ten Card Poker Deal" to come to you, Jim Swain's unique and practical version (called "Showdown") will be appearing in Magicana at the end of the summer.
Now tweeting daily from @David_Acer
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Postby Bob Farmer » 08/03/05 07:30 AM

Harry Lorayne's routine will be included in THE BAMMO TEN CARD DEAL DOSSIER.

The Binarelli routine is basically the same as Tony Griffiths routine which was published many years earlier. Unfortunately, the cards suggested by Binarelli don't work -- there is a possibility the spectator will get a better hand and beat you.

David, do you have Jim's e-mail -- I'd like to ask his permission to include his routine in the book.
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Postby mrgoat » 08/03/05 08:24 AM

I remember from a few years ago on BBC tv, Ricky Jay doing an awesomely dramatic presentation of this. He got really agressive and angry. Hard to describe, it was as if he was making it the fairest game possible, that he was trying to lose and time after time he didn't. Wanted to get people there who wanted to really gamble with him

Was fascinating. But this post is largely useless as I can't remmeber the name of the programme. Maybe someone else will...
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Postby Bob Farmer » 08/04/05 09:19 AM

If three fives are used in place of the three tens, the Binarelli routine will work.

The first royal flush ending I could find for the trick is Tony Griffiths', "A Demonstration On How To Win At Poker" in GRIFF ON CARDS published by Supreme Magic (pp. 21-25). There is no date on this, but it was probably in the seventies.
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Postby Guest » 08/04/05 10:39 AM

There's a report of this being used as a gambling scam in head-to-head poker with strippers.

The victim shuffles, you cut nine stripped cards to the top, the victim deals, he gets the Jonah card, and you win.

See How to Detect Crooked Gambling: Marked Cards and Loaded Dice ( by Frank Garcia, pp.111-113.
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Postby Jeff Haas » 08/04/05 11:14 AM

"Nine stripped cards"?? What a disappointment.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 08/04/05 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Bob Farmer:

The first royal flush ending I could find for the trick is Tony Griffiths', "A Demonstration On How To Win At Poker" in GRIFF ON CARDS published by Supreme Magic (pp. 21-25). There is no date on this, but it was probably in the seventies.
On my files, this book was published in 1963

Bob,
on the Ten Card Deal, I have a little problem :

In the book Martin Gardner Presents, Gardner writes page 186 :
" Apparently, this trick first appeared in print in Arthur Buckley's Card Control (1946)..."

I have readen this book and I haven't find the trick.

Is it a Gardner's mistake or I did'nt read carefully the book ?
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Postby Steve Shain » 08/04/05 03:54 PM

Phillipe,

Yes, - you have been fooled by the vanishing and reappearing 10 Card Poker Deal trick.

It is not in the Dover reprint nor in the first edition of the Buckley book that Dover reproduces. The second edition (1946) has it as a brief paragraph on page 103, after Retaining the Stock, and before The Switch at Draw Poker.

Steve
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Postby Bob Farmer » 08/04/05 04:09 PM

Philippe:

Thank you for the reference.

Yes, as Steve Shain says, not all editions of the Buckley book contain the trick. Incidentally, Buckley gets it backwards by stating that the winner gets the Jonah card.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 08/05/05 12:56 AM

Bob and Steve

Thanks for the info
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Postby Guest » 08/05/05 12:02 PM

David,

Just to keep the literature references up-to-date:

Jim Steinmeyer's "Ten Boys Poker Deal" was published in his book IMPUZZIBILITIES.

Also, there is a 10-card poker stack detailed in the back of John Bannon's new book DEAR MR. FANTASY. It reads well.

Cheers,
Mick
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Postby Philippe Billot » 08/05/05 01:55 PM

Here are other references :

Magazine Phoenix

N 168, Jan 1949, page 672
N 170, Feb 1949, page 681, three versions from Gardner, Marlo and Allerton
N 180, June 1949, page 719, Johnny Murray's version.
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Postby Guest » 08/05/05 03:01 PM

BOB FARMER wrote "..with the Binarelli's set-up you can lose...and you can win if you put the five in place of the then..."
a)" this is not real, it is impossible to lose with my set-up, you can only win; you can control my routine in CLASS ACT (Camirand 1991) write from Gary Ouellet, or in my ONE MAN PARADE in THE LINKING RING - march 2005 issue pag.111 - with the name: CAN'T WIN FOR LOSING write from JON RACHERBAUMER.
It is not necessary and not normal to use the fives in poker-game with only 20 (?) I use the most important card in the deck.
In Italy I use this routine from the '70, it is one of the higlight on my show with Jumdo cards.
Recently at the Centenary Close-up Gala show of The Magic Circle in London is the "finale" of my performance with big interest for all the magicians.
Sorry for my english, sorry BOB, I love your work, your TSUNAMI is one of my preferred, but please read one more time my routine.
Thanks and best wishes from Italy CIAO !!!
TONY BINARELLI
www.tonybinarelli.com
info@tonybinarelli.com
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Postby Bob Farmer » 08/05/05 04:59 PM

Hi Tony:

As I read Phase IV, the 18 cards in play are mixed together and the spectator draws any 5 cards he wants, so it is possible for the spectator to end with one of the following hands:

AS KS QS JS 10S

AD KD QD JD 10D

AC KC QC JC 10C

Since you end with a royal flush in hearts, the game is a draw and nobody wins.

To prevent this, you have to get rid of the tens and use eights or something lower.
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Postby Guest » 08/05/05 07:45 PM

Originally posted by Bob Farmer:
Hi Tony:

As I read Phase IV, the 18 cards in play are mixed together and the spectator draws any 5 cards he wants, so it is possible for the spectator to end with one of the following hands:

AS KS QS JS 10S

AD KD QD JD 10D

AC KC QC JC 10C
That will happen once in every 2,856 performances.

However according to Murphy's Law, the performance in which it does happen will be during a Command Performance before the Queen of England, which is being televised live around the world.
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Postby Guest » 08/05/05 11:10 PM

Dear Bob, the different interpretation is why the poker in Italy is different:
a) the poker is played from 4 players and the deck is composed with 32 cards, from 7 to Ace for each suits. Or (maximum) 5 players and deck with 36 cards from 6 to Ace for each suits.
b) Ranking of suits: generally in Italy is accepted ranking of suits in poker. The ranking is: HEARTS (high) -and in order DIAMONDS - CLUBS - SPADES (low).(cfr. Franco Pratesi in www.pagat.com/vying/pokerrank.html)
According to these in the last hand of my routine
I finish with HEARTS ROYAL FLASH an I WIN.
FOR JAMES IN TORONTO : If you have any problems with THE MURPHY'S LAW and you play in international conditions put the 8 in place of the 10; and YOU WIN.GOOD LUCK
BEST WISHES FROM ITALY - TONY BINARELLI
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 08/06/05 03:41 PM

OK, the Three Jack Deal is a different effect, but it's sort of related in that it uses the principle of a Jonah card.

Another routine for the 10 Card Poker Deal (with a climax) can be found in John Mendoza's "John Verse Two". And the basic effect, together with the Johnny Murray version, is also in Bruce Elliott's "The Best in Magic" (a.k.a. "Magic: 100 New Tricks" (UK edition)), presumably reprinted from The Phoenix.
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Postby Guest » 08/06/05 09:47 PM

Originally posted by James in Toronto:
There's a report of this being used as a gambling scam in head-to-head poker with strippers.

The victim shuffles, you cut nine stripped cards to the top, the victim deals, he gets the Jonah card, and you win.

See How to Detect Crooked Gambling: Marked Cards and Loaded Dice ( by Frank Garcia, pp.111-113.
That's right, and I believe it was mentioned in a Vernon book and later in an Ortiz book.

The set up was a deck shaved for three sets of trips - a classic combo for gin rummy, and still sold in gambling supply houses. Since Gin is head to head, the stripped cards could be used for a final hand of poker to clean the sucker out.
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Postby Guest » 08/07/05 12:24 PM

Jeff Haas, ( above ) wrote "What a disappointment." regarding this method, which is a legitimate point of view.

But since this is a genuine gambling scam, designed by bad men to steal money from stupid men, and a criminal offence in 50 states and the Dominion of Canada, it's not surprising that the method is a somewhat disappointing to purists..

However, there is a certain brutal efficiency in a method that will let the victim shuffle the whole deck, and deal himself, while you stack the deck with one cut.

If you have Ernest Earick's By Forces Unseen , he has a version called Double Damned, which builds on the two-Jonah principle in Elmsley's Cider trick,

The trick in John Bannon's latest book ( "Not your fathers ten-card poker deal..." ) is actually a different trick, in method and effect, which by the way, I highly recommend.
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Postby pduffie » 08/07/05 01:14 PM

Jeff Haas, (above ) wrote "What a disappointment." regarding this method, which is a legitimate point of view.

=======================

I thought Jeff was making a joke - his disappointment being that the previous post referred to stripped cards, and not Strippers! (as in ladies... :)
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Postby Bob Farmer » 08/07/05 02:56 PM

The Earick effect will be included in my new book, THE TEN CARD DEAL DOSSIER.

Note to Tony: As that other Italian, Orlando Carmelo Scarnecchia, has pointed out, in North America there is no ranking of suits in poker, so a royal flush in any suit ties a royal flush in any other suit.
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Postby Jeff Haas » 08/07/05 03:43 PM

James, I suggest you review Duffie's Card Compulsions.
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Postby Guest » 08/07/05 10:39 PM

NOTE FOR BOB FARMER: In working in North America it is necessary to change the then with the eight, in Europe my set-up is perfect.
I am most interesting in your new book about the 10 cards poker-deal, when is ready ???
Best wishes and at the pleasure to meet you personally.
TONY BINARELLI
My personal e-mail;
info@tonybinarelli.com
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Postby Brad Jeffers » 08/08/05 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Buster Brown:
Originally posted by James in Toronto:
[b] There's a report of this being used as a gambling scam in head-to-head poker with strippers.

The victim shuffles, you cut nine stripped cards to the top, the victim deals, he gets the Jonah card, and you win.

See How to Detect Crooked Gambling: Marked Cards and Loaded Dice ( by Frank Garcia, pp.111-113.
That's right, and I believe it was mentioned in a Vernon book and later in an Ortiz book.

The set up was a deck shaved for three sets of trips - a classic combo for gin rummy, and still sold in gambling supply houses. Since Gin is head to head, the stripped cards could be used for a final hand of poker to clean the sucker out. [/b]
Wouldn't there be a problem, if after the shuffle, the top card of the deck was a mate to one of your three sets of trips?

The outcome could then be, that the spectator (or mark as the case may be), might deal himself four of a kind, beating your full house. (There are also other win/lose combinations that favor the spectator.)

Do Garcia or Ortiz cover this possibility?
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Postby Guest » 08/08/05 02:49 AM

Right, that's why supply houses strip three sets of trips and one "flyer".
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