SECOND DEAL

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Don » 11/06/04 03:01 PM

I am looking for a book that has tons of routines that utilize the second deal. I have learned the second deal and have very little to do with it at this point. I have heard of a book called the Experts Portfolio, is this a good source?

I will thank you in advance for your replys.
Don
 
Posts: 56
Joined: 08/25/08 01:47 PM

Postby Ian Kendall » 11/06/04 03:51 PM

Learn Roy Walton's Cannibal Cards (I think it's in the Complete Walton Vol 1)

Take care, Ian
Ian Kendall
 
Posts: 2128
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Edinburgh

Postby Michael Close » 11/06/04 04:01 PM

Another great routine that uses the second deal is Alex Elmsley's Diamond Cut Diamond.

M. Close
Michael Close
 
Posts: 345
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas

Postby DChung » 11/06/04 04:26 PM

Jack Carpenter's Experts Portfolio is a great book, but the applications for the second deals here are all (or at least mostly) within the context of gambling routines.

For a book with more magical applications, consider Bill Simon's Effective Card Magic, reprinted by Dover as Card Magic for Amateurs and Professionals. It has a chapter dealing with tricks using the second deal.

For a list of contents, click here here

Call to the Colors is a classic (and certainly requires a very good mastery of the second deal), as is the Dunbury delusion (which can also be found in ECT).

Derrick
DChung
 
Posts: 46
Joined: 03/14/08 01:00 PM

Postby Don » 11/06/04 04:54 PM

thank you for all the replys. i am looking for a book that has gambling routines as well as normal magic routines which utilize the second deal. im not looking for a general card magic book but rather one which deals mostly with the second deal.

thank you and i would appreciate more opinions
Don
 
Posts: 56
Joined: 08/25/08 01:47 PM

Postby Guest » 11/06/04 06:02 PM

There aren't a lot of books that address this issue, but Jeff Busby did a book called "Fred Braue On False Deals", I think. Richard Hatch can certainly correct me if necessary. At any rate, there was a fair amount of material devoted to the second deal in that book. Routines' Braue worked out on his own, and lots with Gus Southall. Don't know where you'd get a copy, but it's worth looking for...

Best, PSC
Guest
 

Postby Ian Kendall » 11/07/04 02:41 AM

I get the feeling that the theme of this question is a result of the 'Easy to master' phenomenon of late; people now expect everything to be collected in one convenient package, thus avoiding the hassle/pleasure/grunt work of finding the gems scattered throughout the literature for yourself.

I'm not knocking Rage for asking, I'm just waiting for the three DVD set 'Easy to Master Seconds, Centres and Bottoms'.

Take care, Ian
Ian Kendall
 
Posts: 2128
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Edinburgh

Postby Don » 11/07/04 05:20 AM

Ian, for one im not looking for easy to master anything. i have already mastered the second deal thru your so called grunt work. your post offends me, whether or not you meant it or not. im not looking for the easy way out, im looking for some effects i can use for a sleight that i have already mastered. i am a member of the magic castle but i live in hawaii so i don't have access to many books or DVD's. so when i ask for help i don't appreciate people talking trash.
Don
 
Posts: 56
Joined: 08/25/08 01:47 PM

Postby Don » 11/07/04 05:50 AM

hey ian, who are you to question people anyway? it's not like your the grand master of magic. really, you offend me, thanks a lot. second deals aren't easy to master sleights to begin with anyways, Ian!
Don
 
Posts: 56
Joined: 08/25/08 01:47 PM

Postby Ian Kendall » 11/07/04 08:38 AM

Rage,

I'll start with an apology. A friend has mailed me to point out that my post seemed to be an attack on you, which was not the intention. If I have offended you then I am truely sorry, and I hope that you might accept that.

My post was made in haste while trying to leave the house this morning, and as such probably should have been delayed until I could have phrased myself more clearly.

The point I was trying to make is that the book you seek probably does not exist, in so far as most of the routines that utilise a certain sleight (be is the second deal or whatever) tend to be scattered throughout the literature. By this I mean that each magician might have one or two routines that they publish in a book, someone else might also have a trick and so on. The target of your search is often buried amoung thirty or forty other tricks. (Gene Maze and bottom dealing being the obvious exception).

In the last ten years there has been a phenomenon in magic publishing which Jamy Swiss called the 'Ammarisation' of magic - the gathering together of certain 'types' (for want of a better word) of trick, be it card tricks, coin tricks, rubber bands, threads, thumbtips (I'm not kidding - three DVDs on thumbtips!) and so on. Now, it is possible to learn the classics (and not so classics) in one fell swoop without the grunt work of finding them for oneself. One saddening thing is that often the grunt work is most enjoyable.

My comment about ETM Seconds, Centres and Bottoms was a dig at the latest three DVDs from L&L. As has been pointed out in every review I've read, some of these tricks require moves such as the Zarrow shuffle and palms - moves that should not be advertised as 'Easy to Master'. I would not be least bit surprised to learn that Ammar is planning an 'ETM' series on possibly the hardest branch of magic.

As for your original question, I stand by my first answer, which was the first to be offered. Roy's Cannibal cards is a great routine for the second deal, and one worthy of attention. Something else you might be interested in is the book Phantoms of the Card Table by Gazzo and Britland. Apart from being a fascinating read, it has an updated copy of the original Scott manuscript at the back. Read that, and get a punch (either a needle and cork, or get a professional one from Jim Riser) and learn to read a punch while dealing. Once you get the hang of that you'll be able to do deals that few others can.

I'll finish by repeating my apology.

Take care, Ian
Ian Kendall
 
Posts: 2128
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Edinburgh

Postby Guest » 11/07/04 09:46 AM

Yup...

Get Roy's stuff; it contain the most varied/novel material using the 2nd deal (though most of the effects are magic releated... not gambling.)

You might also look into:

"Jacks or Better" by Ortiz, from "At the Table"
(this is one of my all-time fave 2nd deal effects.)

&

Speaking of Call to the Colors: I'll humbly reccomend my version (Long Distance Call) which can be found in Tricks of my Trade
Guest
 

Postby Bill Wheeler » 11/07/04 10:25 AM

Originally posted by D. Conn:

Speaking of Call to the Colors: I'll humbly reccomend my version (Long Distance Call) which can be found in Tricks of my Trade
Doug should also have humbly recommended "Diamond Mine" which is his version of "Diamond Cut Diamond". It too is in his good book.
Driver: Callaway FT-5
Irons: Titlest AP-1
Wedges: Vokey 52,58,64
Putter: i-series Black #9
Bill Wheeler
 
Posts: 172
Joined: 03/14/08 10:22 AM
Location: Downers Grove, IL

Postby Guest » 11/07/04 10:52 AM

Thanks for the nod Bill (geez, I can't believe I missed a chance for a shameless 2nd plug!)

For those not familiar with my version...
Here's the skinny;

A run of seven cards are introduced (A-7 of diamonds for example.) Someone freely names any number & the card at that position changes color (for example, if 6 is named, the 6 changes from red to black.) And then in a follow-up effect ... The entire run reverses color (while the named card/# reverts to it's original form.) Ex: the 6 reverts to red, while the other 7 cards change to black.

I have a 2nd version (also in the book) which uses a Royal Flush instead of a run of diamonds (this routine is great for gambling demos.)

If anyone is interested in "Tricks of My Trade" I have 'deal' I posted on the board yesterday;
http://geniimagazine.com/forum/noncgi/u ... p=1#000003


For more info on the book... check here: http://www.dougconn.com/tomtsample/contents.htm
On that link/page, you'll find a couple excerpts/freebies and some vids featuring routines from said tome.

End rant (with apology for drifting off topic.)
Guest
 

Postby Bill Duncan » 11/07/04 11:33 AM

Actually there is a book devoted to second deals. The SECOND volume of the Martin Nash trilogy (Any Second Now) is devoted to Martin's routines using the second deal and double lift.

Rene Levand's work features second and third deals (using one hand) but the material can of course be adapted to standard second dealing.
Bill Duncan
 
Posts: 1360
Joined: 03/13/08 11:33 PM

Postby Don » 11/07/04 02:08 PM

Let me start off by saying Ian, fuggedaboudit! I understand where your coming from. Yes i did get offended but you weren't "attacking"(for lack of a better word)me on purpose. Maybe i should apologize for reacting to strongly from the get go. Anyways, no worries bud.


I truly appreciate all of your helpful posts. I write all of your suggestions down and will explore them when i leave Hawaii, or until i get back to the Castle for a visit to the library.

Hey if you got more suggestions keep em coming! I'll write them all down and explore them later.

Thank you very much.
Don
 
Posts: 56
Joined: 08/25/08 01:47 PM

Postby Steve Hook » 11/07/04 03:51 PM

Rage:

By the way, if you haven't seen anyone do "Call to the Colors", it looks great. I imagine it's also a good way to practice your second deal because there is much variation within the routine.

I was lucky to have seen Neal Austin do this routine flawlessly in a fast food restaurant session back in Raleigh in the mid-'80s. Nice guy and an excellent 2nd deal.

Steve
Steve Hook
 
Posts: 768
Joined: 10/21/08 11:50 AM
Location: North Carolina, USA

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » 11/22/04 07:45 PM

I was wondering, is there a version of the three card monte which uses second deal? (one handed push-off)

carlo
Carlo Morpurgo
 
Posts: 295
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Columbia, MO

Postby Guest » 11/23/04 07:48 AM

Had the pleasure of attending Simon Lovell's lecture last evening here in Boston. He did a lovely routine with the second deal. You might consider contact him for lecture notes. He also has lecture notes available on technique for both the second deal and bottom deal.
Guest
 

Postby Don » 01/07/05 09:50 PM

i was back home for the holidays and had plenty of time to go to the castle library. i found a lot of great stuff which utilize the second deal. thanks to all of your replys.

thank you
Don
 
Posts: 56
Joined: 08/25/08 01:47 PM

Postby Jim Snapp » 01/11/05 01:27 PM

How about Gary Plant's "Maybe One Will Match" from the card corner in the Linking Ring.
(Sometime in the last few years)
Anybody have the month/year??

Jim
Jim Snapp
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Indiana

Postby Jason England » 02/16/05 12:23 AM

I realize the exchange took place months ago, and I don't want to open any old wounds, but I thought Ian's post was dead-on.

Rage, your first post clearly wanted "a book" with a "ton" of second deal stuff in it. Whether you intended for it to sound that way or not, your post looked like it was written by any of a zillion 15 year olds who want it all, and want it all now.

Your follow up posts did nothing to dissuade me from that opinion either. You've "mastered" the second deal. Boy, you couldn't have possibly picked a worse word to describe your current abilities with a difficult move. Any time I hear someone claim to have mastered a move like seconds, bottoms, centers, the tabled faro, strip-outs, or the classic pass, my [censored] detector goes on high alert.

I've sat with some of the very best card guys on the planet, many of whom are truly deserving of being able to say they've mastered the second deal. The thing is, none of them would.

Just something to keep in mind.

Now, so you don't think I'm just bashing on you here, check out "Jacks or Better" from Darwin Ortiz At the Card Table.

It's a great routine that utilizes the second deal.

Jason
Jason England
 
Posts: 238
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Postby Guest » 02/16/05 11:13 AM

If you didn't already follow Bill Duncan's advice...get Nash's book "Any Second Now". Besides the title being a clever play on words, Martin deals the best second I've seen in person. Additionally, the gambling routines you are seeking are right up his alley. You'll enjoy the book immensely.

Monty
Guest
 

Postby El Mystico » 02/16/05 12:52 PM

No flames here, but - it is an interesting question.
Beyond this specific second deal question - is "making it easier to get to the good stuff" a problem?
As someone with over 20 years experience and a pretty large library - i'm no newby.

But the idea that we shouldn't make it easy....does this mean if I came up with 20 great ideas (fat chance) I shouldn't put them all in one book, but instead scatter them in a welter of rubbish?

Or - more topical - does it mean that it was a mistake for Max Maven to release Prism?

For me, the biggest concern with this "Easy to Master" approach is that - if you focus on the tricks that everyone can do, you get a conveyor belt of identikit magicians.

Now, undoubtedly, there is a market of sorts for such people. But, it is distinctiveness which takes people to the next level.

Tamariz is a great example of someone who is fantastically entertaining with material - which can only work brilliantly for him.How many magicians have bought a Kornwinder Kar? Who else but Tamariz has a reputation for doing it? That to me is the key to this issue.
You can become another McMagician, offering the worldwide standards; or you can develop your own signature dishes - which you can only find by looking through the fantastic legacy we are honoured to have available to us - more than at any time in history - to find what works best for us as individuals.
El Mystico
 
Posts: 879
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Leamington Spa

Postby Ian Kendall » 02/16/05 01:09 PM

If I may quote myself (it adds spice to the conversation, as someone once said...)

people now expect everything to be collected in one convenient package, thus avoiding the hassle/ pleasure /grunt work of finding the gems scattered throughout the literature for yourself.

There are many reasons for the Easy collections, and whatever one's thoughts, we're stuck with them. However, I believe that one of the joys of magic is finding that gem in the drek - the thrill of the hunt if you will. The fact that our attention spans are shrinking at such an alarming rate only exacerbates the problem - in a time poor/cash rich environment someone is going save you time eventually.

Here's an analogy; you travel to a far off land on holiday. Once you get to your hotel you have two options - go on prepared excursions to the local sites, or hop a bus into town and go exploring for yourself. I know which I would prefer.

Take care, Ian
Ian Kendall
 
Posts: 2128
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Edinburgh

Postby Don » 02/16/05 02:11 PM

regaurdless of what anyone thinks, i still found some good stuff which utilizes the second deal. all thanks to the replys so many of you have posted. so thanks again.

however, i do agree with jason. i understand that the second deal takes a considerable amount of time to "master." for me i have become good enough at the sleight to where i wanted to practice using it in routines. i wanted to practice these routines for my pleasure. not the pleasure of an audience. it will be some time before i would consider using the second deal in front of an audience just due to the fact that it does take a lot of time to,quote unquote master the move. :genii:
Don
 
Posts: 56
Joined: 08/25/08 01:47 PM

Postby Larry Horowitz » 02/16/05 02:17 PM

O.k. So here's my two comments worth.

When Jason speaks of sitting down with the best card guys on the planet, I know he is not only talking about magicians. The point being dealings seconds for a magic trick is a big difference then dealing seconds in a game, "to get the money". Therefore, saying one has 'Mastered" dealing seconds might need some qualification.

"Easy to Master" Yes, but the question becomes, Is that the version YOU want to master?

I enjoy the research and the hunt. I think everyone needs to do the research so that they might learn how an effect or move was developed. Only then can each individual decide what best suits their needs and skills. Everyone has there own style.
Larry Horowitz
 
Posts: 398
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: L.A.

Postby Guest » 02/16/05 03:56 PM

Rage, now that you mastered the second deal I want to let you know that some major players in magic think the bottom deal is more useful.
Steve V
Guest
 

Postby AMCabral » 02/17/05 10:50 AM

Rage,

If you've followed folks' advice and gone looking in Darwin Ortiz At The Card Table, if you really want to test your ability to deal deuces, learn "Grand Slam", the bridge deal. It'll serve as a great exercise AND a killer routine when you get it in stroke.

-Tony
User avatar
AMCabral
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 03/13/08 08:59 AM

Postby Guest » 02/26/05 03:50 AM

Have you read Gazzo & David Britland's "Phantoms of the Card Table - Confessions of a Cardsharp"?

This is one of the only books I am familiar with that features the second-deal as a gambling sleight. The basic premise of the book is the search for, and interviews with, the greatest second-dealer of all time.

If you don't have it, you can get it through the normal sources, such as Amazon..
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 02/26/05 07:24 AM

"The basic premise of the book is the search for, and interviews with, the greatest second-dealer of all time."

Many years ago, I was given one of the original manuscripts of "Phantom".

I have the same question today, as I did then.

How does anyone determine who the "world's greatest second-dealer" is?

Do you watch every card player in every card game in the world?

And, if the "world's greatest second-dealer" was in that game, how would anyone know it? Of course, if he/she gets caught...well, then maybe he/she is not the greatest.

The "world's greatest second-dealer" at any given time in history, will probably always remain, "The Phantom".

PS: These comments do not concern magician's we all know and have seen!

Just something to think about.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 02/26/05 01:09 PM

That's very true, Joe. I was using their vernacular.. not mine. Reminds me of a category I saw in Guiness book of World Records - "Most Succesful Crook". Their winner was "Mr. X", a totally unknown individual who has probably stole millions and done so in such a way as to never be caught.

I'm sure the greatest second-dealer of all time is unknown to us, and will forever remain so.. He is content with his accomplishments and feels no need to give interviews or release manuscripts.

I did find Walter Scott's story interesting. But true ?? I think that deserves question marks..
Guest
 


Return to Close-Up Magic