I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

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Postby MaxNY » 04/18/14 10:54 PM

I never found the Cafe as interesting as this Forum. I never joined, and only visited it a dozen times.
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Postby NYCJoePItt » 04/19/14 03:08 PM

Speaking of irony... I'm a member of both groups, here and there. And this thread is beginning to read like it was written over there :o

Careful, or Dad will lock us down, lol.
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Postby MJE » 04/19/14 03:44 PM

Pete McCabe wrote:It was surprising to see the Vancouver Ring website seems to indicate that the lecture is(was) still on for tonight. Steve, did you leave your mother's deathbed to go do a lecture?


Now, that really isn't fair. Although it often doesn't seem like it, Canada is "out of the country." Well....this country, anyway.

Not only that, but last I heard, poles are going up, wires are being strung, and Canada should have internet access by early 2015.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/19/14 06:19 PM

I will offer Steve condolences on the death of his mother.

On another note entirely, I heard from the moderator who banned me for flaming someone (absolutely true), and he also informed me that I used profanity that snuck by their filter, for which I am quite proud.
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Postby Michael Close » 04/19/14 06:37 PM

It's easy to get by the filters when you make up your own dirty words, you flurging schnatz.
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Postby MJE » 04/19/14 08:08 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:he also informed me that I used profanity that snuck by their filter, for which I am quite proud.


Well done, sir.
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Postby MJE » 04/19/14 10:36 PM

Michael Close wrote:It's easy to get by the filters when you make up your own dirty words, you flurging schnatz.


Know what? I have HAD it with you mother flogging, Schnatzing..........rrrrrr......OK. You win. I'm exhausted.
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 04/24/14 09:53 PM

Did Steve ever unban you?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/24/14 09:55 PM

May 1st
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Postby Bill Mullins » 04/24/14 10:15 PM

When I put my son in time out, it's never for more than 10 minutes or so. But he's only seven.
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Postby Jonathan Pendragon » 04/27/14 11:44 PM

"Groucho Pendragon?" What a horrible thing to say, I resemble that remark!
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Postby brody » 04/28/14 12:18 AM

How exactly do you find out why you got banned? I just all of a sudden had a ban message, and have absolutely no idea why.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/28/14 01:34 AM

I think that they sent me a letter because I'm the editor of Genii. I wasn't going to argue their point: I definitely flamed John Mazza (who deserves a seared rear end) and used profanity.
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 04/28/14 09:32 AM

Jonathan Pendragon wrote:"Groucho Pendragon?" What a horrible thing to say, I resemble that remark!


<snort>

That's what you get for paraphrasing the great Groucho Marx. ;)

<grin>
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 04/28/14 09:40 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I think that they sent me a letter because I'm the editor of Genii. I wasn't going to argue their point: I definitely flamed John Mazza (who deserves a seared rear end) and used profanity.


See, I don't agree with Steve that you should be treated on the same level as some kid who comes in and flames someone on the cafe. It is all subjective.

We've talked about this before, as you know, I got paid for years and year to do online management. They needed to give you a warning first. Just to ban you is just silly. Just delete the messages and tell you why they did.

You, I and many other have a very strong opinions.. and we have the sarcastic gene. But to tell the truth about someone with the facts and to be banned from that from a silly message board, is inane.

I think every message board is silly, because all of the topics will fade into the past and become meaningless.

You know I was disappointed when you decided to let non-Genii subscribers have access to this board. When you pay for something of value, you treat it better.

But this is your house and I follow the rules best I can and it is your decision how you want to run this message board. I see the Genii forum a more civil place than TMC because of the professionals here. Quantity is not a good thing for something free, quality is.

And, the ethics of the people here are much higher than the green place. (Not Steve or the admins, but the userbase).

Rick
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Postby Bill Marquardt » 04/28/14 10:25 AM

Rick Ruhl wrote:And, the ethics of the people here are much higher than the green place. (Not Steve or the admins, but the userbase).

Rick


While this statement may be basically true, perhaps you are not aware that it seems one member here repeatedly joins the Cafe only to be banned time and again for attacking a particular well-known professional magician.

Richard exhibits a great deal of tolerance here by allowing a number of objectionable (IMO) posts to remain visible even after he instructs the offenders to cease and desist. Not all administrators are that lenient. It is a judgment call and as I have said before, there is no way to please everyone.

If I might give an example from my own non-magic board: A young man described a brief scene from a script he was writing in which a teenager leading a little old lady across a street suddenly knocks her down and then defecates on her. (Yes, really, he thought this was hilarious.) I deleted the post and this guy immediately started flaming me online and sends me threatening PMs because I had violated his right to free speech. Later someone else posted a message in which he wondered who would win if Bruce Lee and Jesus Christ got into a kung fu fight. The previous poster began another attack against me and the moderators for allowing this post which he deemed blasphemous, an insult to "Our Lord and Saviour" and demanded that we remove it or he would sue us. My solution was to ban this person.

My point is: we need to be tolerant ourselves toward admins and mods. It is not an easy job.
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Postby shatteredorbit » 04/28/14 10:58 AM

Rick Ruhl wrote:You, I and many other have a very strong opinions.. and we have the sarcastic gene. But to tell the truth about someone with the facts and to be banned from that from a silly message board, is inane.

I think every message board is silly, because all of the topics will fade into the past and become meaningless.

You know I was disappointed when you decided to let non-Genii subscribers have access to this board. When you pay for something of value, you treat it better.


Sarcasm. The other issue with internet forums is people read them with their own bias. They will 'project' their feelings onto someone elses words, and then get offended.

I, for one, am glad that non Genii members are allowed in. I started reading here before I was a subscriber. Now that i *AM* a paying member, i intend to contribute a bit more.
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 04/28/14 12:26 PM

Bill Marquardt wrote:
While this statement may be basically true, perhaps you are not aware that it seems one member here repeatedly joins the Cafe only to be banned time and again for attacking a particular well-known professional magician.



I had the same problem when I managed the forum managers at Microsoft for MSN. It got to the point and I called his ISP and told them I was going to ban their IP addresses since he violated their TOS and ours. It worked and he went away for good.

Bill Marquardt wrote:
I deleted the post and this guy immediately started flaming me online and sends me threatening PMs because I had violated his right to free speech



Yeah people need to read the Constitution. This is for Government action only. Doesn't apply to private companies.. Richard et all can delete any message for any reason at any time.

Same with banning.

Bill Marquardt wrote:My point is: we need to be tolerant ourselves toward admins and mods. It is not an easy job.


20 years of doing it for Compuserve, GEnie (the online service), Delpi and MSN and I still have the scars from being the Lead Manager. And I got PAID to deal with it. I dont know why anyone would want to do it for free!
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 04/28/14 12:29 PM

shatteredorbit wrote:I, for one, am glad that non Genii members are allowed in. I started reading here before I was a subscriber. Now that i *AM* a paying member, i intend to contribute a bit more.


Richard had set it up to be read only for non-subscribers. You had to be a subscriber or a VIP to post.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/28/14 01:44 PM

Limiting it to Genii subscribers (or "VIP"s) decreased the activity to unnacceptable levels. I'm glad that I reversed the decision rather quickly. It has taken some time to build up traffic again, and we're still not where we were before, but we keep going. :)
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Postby mrgoat » 04/28/14 02:23 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I think that they sent me a letter because I'm the editor of Genii.


Brooks wrote:The rules must apply to everyone or not at all. What does a persons vocation have to do with anything?


So, you *do* get different treatment.

Ah, I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.
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Postby Trovatore » 04/28/14 04:07 PM

mrgoat wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:I think that they sent me a letter because I'm the editor of Genii.


Brooks wrote:The rules must apply to everyone or not at all. What does a persons vocation have to do with anything?


So, you *do* get different treatment.

Ah, I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.


I see no hypocrisy. Richard got a ban, so the rules did apply to him. Because they are friends (and possibly as a professional courtesy), Steve sent him a note.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/28/14 04:17 PM

Sorry you didn't understand. No one gets a email explains why they get banned. They just get banned. So rk has got different treatment. Despite brooks saying everyone is treated the same.

Hth.
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Postby houdinisghost » 04/28/14 08:06 PM

Dear Richard,
I am thoroughly outraged at your being banned from The Magic Cafe.
If you get banned from the Genii Forum, I am going to be livid!
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/28/14 08:08 PM

If Dustin had any real sense, he'd ban me right now.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/29/14 03:35 AM

The above two posts show the need for a LIKE button here!
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Postby Brad Henderson » 04/29/14 11:30 AM

goat is right to point out the hypocrisy. RK got treated differently. normally they have a 'no comment' rule on banning. You get banned and no one sends you anything. Requests for explanations are met with 'we don't do that'.

Brooks is a liar.Spineless. a lackey to his advertisers.

REMOVED BY RK
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/29/14 12:01 PM

Brad, you've just crossed the line with your last comment about Brooks, which I have deleted. It was crass, disgusting, and incredibly thoughtless. Do it again and you will be banned.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 04/29/14 12:22 PM

thank you for the warning. sincerely. that's how an adult would do it. Yet another example of how these forums differ. And I am not being snarky.

I sincerely believe Steve brooks and his cafe are the worst, most debilitating forces in magic of the last 20 years, at least.

My contempt for him I feel is more than justified. I would think anyone who truly loves magic and cares for her protection and growth would feel the same.

He is a dark spot on our wonderful art. The cafe a place of so much potential, wasted by small minds with self serving interests. Of course Scribner is the smallest of those minds. One day, I will dance.

again, thank you for the reasonable, sensible and proportionate response. Hopefully brooks will see that and learn a key lesson as to why this forum flourishes and contributes to the art, while his languishes and actively hinders growth and progress.

yes - my feelings are strong. Magic would be better off without him.

I will now go eat BBQ and try to think of happier things.

thank you for letting me know I crossed a line and being reasonable in the management thereof.

no snark.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 04/29/14 05:27 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:If Dustin had any real sense ...

Now I'm thinking about changing my avatar to this:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/senseles ... 952624.jpg

or this (more accurate):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cAMz82FOPgs/U ... age++2.jpg

I agree about the "like" button. There has been many a time I wish we had something similar.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 04/29/14 06:11 PM

We do have a "Post a reply" button which anyone can use to express their fondness for a particular post.
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Postby Bill Marquardt » 04/29/14 06:33 PM

I am not sure what part of my nature impels me to participate in arguments or discussions that do not truly affect me, but once again I feel compelled to correct a misstatement. I have been a frequent visitor to both the Genii Forum and the Cafe for the better part of the last three years. Let me emphatically state that RK is not the first person to ever receive a note explaining why he was banned.

While the Cafe management makes it clear that they feel no obligation to explain their actions, they have on occasion done so. I repeat - RK is not the first person to receive such an explanation. Is this an inconsistency? Perhaps, but it is not a contradiction of their policy or previous actions..

Some of the vitriol being spewed in this thread surpasses anything I have ever witnessed in either venue. I am shocked that Richard tolerates some of this, but it is his party and I respect his decisions.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/29/14 06:54 PM

I think it's silly to beat up the folks at The Magic Cafe. They have their own community and we have ours.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 04/29/14 08:14 PM

the problem isn't the folks at the cafe per se. Many are sincere and would progress if given access to vetted, grounded, practical information. The problem is these people are intentionally kept in the dark. A stupid populace is one easy to sell to. Personality and like ability trump accuracy of information. And as popularity is the goal, the path to success is often the willingness to give away ideas - regardless of whose ideas they may be or how well you may really understand them.

whoa to the magician who dare try to set the record straight.

what Steve brooks has created is actually harming the progress of magic. With few exceptions those who rely in the cafe for information will have a harder time achieving the goal of being a successful magician then those who look anywhere else. Sure there are some great posts on there by great minds - most of whom have been banned or self exiled.

So, it's not beating up on the people. It's an expression of sadness for them. Knowing that for the sake of one man's ego and a few advertising dollars that the education of sincere humans is being intentionally stifled.

I hold nothing but contempt for that. And Bill - I've expressed only a hint of that disgust. And that hint is far too kind to the awfulness that is Steve brooks for allowing this to occur.

Steve brooks has done more to harm magic then any force I can think of. not mean. just true.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/29/14 08:39 PM

Brad, you're skipping that line again.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/29/14 08:43 PM

Brad Henderson wrote:the problem isn't the folks at the cafe per se. Many are sincere and would progress if given access to vetted, grounded, practical information. The problem is these people are intentionally kept in the dark. [snip] whoa to the magician who dare try to set the record straight.


I disagree. Those who can ask questions, will. And those who can accept the fact that most of what they ask about can be found in old and inexpensive books, will. Many of the rest are in the magic market to satisfy their misplaced craving for external cleverness in contrived context, the wand as cane and the magic table as walker, the illusion as crutches - the sad conflation of "special" with "socialized". That there are folks who sell product aimed at that market is what it is.

The green place offers youngsters a magic oriented socially acceptable venue to be just that, youngsters. They can get their fill (and more perhaps) of grouchy condescension and dismissal (where they'd like acceptance) elsewhere. It's supposed to be a refuge for them.

Not sure I'd criticize their advertisers for selling candy to babies any more than in the larger magic market. Boys and toys?

So how are folks doing with the tricks in the Hofzinser book? Adding blank card kickers to everywhere and nowhere or the the recalled and lost routines?
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Brad Henderson » 04/29/14 08:45 PM

I have tried to keep my point focused on the problems with the cafe and not personal attacks. having said that, I feel I've said all I can say. And feel better for having said that.
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Postby Nooner » 04/29/14 08:59 PM

Brad Henderson wrote:I have tried to keep my point focused on the problems with the cafe and not personal attacks. having said that, I feel I've said all I can say. And feel better for having said that.


I don't know how you can read what you said in your post about Brooks (specifically "Steve brooks has done more to harm magic then any force I can think of") and not think it is a personal attack. I frequent both the Cafe and this board and see value in both sites. Life's too short to argue about which site is better.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 04/29/14 11:04 PM

my argument isn't which site is better but calling attention to be real damage done by the cafe. That damage is the continued result of Steve brooks' actions and decisions. That's not a personal attack - that's pointing out cause and effect.

lest I be misunderstood.
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Postby Bill Marquardt » 04/29/14 11:35 PM

All I can say is that the language contained in some previous posts paints a picture of the author as a horrible person. It is the most disgusting stuff I have read on either forum. I have to believe the author of those posts is not like that in "real life." I won't say any more. I've probably said too much.
Last edited by Bill Marquardt on 04/29/14 11:51 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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