CUPS EXPERTS

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby C. Hampton » 04/22/04 09:50 AM

I would like to know your opinion on this.

Jhonson cups VS Magic Maker Cups.

I think the Magic Maker cups are a replica of Fox's cups (to the Joy of Mr Busby), and the Jhonson are a slight different.

Have any of you tried the MM cups? Are the weight alright? Are these the Penguin cups? Any comments you can give me on these?

For the Jhonson....are they only made in Brass?

Thanks in advance for your help!!!! ;)
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Postby Jakob Rasmussen » 04/22/04 10:13 AM

Hi Carlos

Tjek this side, i be surprised if thoose cups from MM is not on that page.

http://www.jamesriser.com/Cups/SelectingCups.html

There is all you need to selcet your set of cups, exceps for the money to buy them !!!!!!

Best Jakob
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Postby Jim Riser » 04/22/04 10:29 AM

Carlos and Jakob;
I have not added the MM cups to my pages. I do not have a set to evaluate and photograph. Sorry, but I'll be no help on these right now.
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Postby C. Hampton » 04/22/04 11:03 AM

OK,

I'll be standing by to see if anyone can help. I've been wanting to get a set of Johnson cups for a while, but I don't really like the brass finish and I don't think they make them in copper (not really sure). They make the MM in brass or copper, so I thought it might be a good alternative.
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Postby Frank Starsinic » 04/22/04 01:04 PM

Here's what I know/think.

The JP cups feel great, stack perfectly, but have small final loads. . probably a bit smaller than the MM cups (paul fox cups).

The recessed area of the JP cups seems deeper and wider to hold more balls and better.

The MM cups look funny to me on the inside. I'm not a metal spinner but something about them seemed cheap to me on the inside. You'd have to ask Riser about that.

I looked at a set at Hollywood magic on saturday.

I love the Paul Fox look.
I love copper.

I don't really like brass but the more I check out my JP chop cup on my shelf that I don't use any more (once I started using leather) it really does look pretty good when tarnished.
Darn good, in fact.

Now I'm wondering whether selling my JP cups to Bill Palmer was such a good idea.

The JP cups feel great to me but I like weighty cups. Some feel the JP cups are too heavy. I love the weight/size ratio. Love it!

If I had to have only one set? I don't know.
I'm a Paul Fox shape lover. But they weight a lot less than the JP cups. That was the only disappointing thing to me about the Paul Fox and it's look-alikes.


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Postby Pepka » 04/22/04 01:46 PM

I've only seen MM cups, and I don't care for the craftsmanship. The one pair I saw at a magic dealer, (who will remain nameless) had one cup that was all scuffed on the top. Almost like it had been scratched with steel wool. The shopkeep tried to tell me that this would rub out and I told him no, it won't. I have a lot of respect for the owner, and consider him a friend, but COME ON?!? I can't believe that a company would even ship this kind of crap to sell and put their name on.
Since he didn't do it, I'll plug Jim Riser's cups. I have 3 sets of his now, and received his Jumbo set yesterday, they are a work of art. You can do A LOT worse than buying a set of cups from Jim. JP cups are also good, and I love the look and feel of the JES squatty cups. Those are almost identical to the Paul Fox originals. IMHO, JP, Riser, or JES. Stay away from MM cups.
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Postby C. Hampton » 04/22/04 01:53 PM

Frank,

you are killing me brother!!!! So can JP make a PF cup with the JP weight and out of copper????

I guess that the best option is to get the sherwood cups, in plain copper. I am not to say that they don't deserve their price, I just can't justify with the little use they are going to get.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! :mad:
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Postby C. Hampton » 04/22/04 02:07 PM

Sorry Pepka,

we were posting at the same time. I really like the craftmanship of Jim Riser, but I like the shape of the Fox cup, JP cup is similar to the Fox cup although they are not as nice looking.
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Postby Frank Starsinic » 04/22/04 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Carlos Hampton:
Frank,

you are killing me brother!!!! So can JP make a PF cup with the JP weight and out of copper????

I guess that the best option is to get the sherwood cups, in plain copper. I am not to say that they don't deserve their price, I just can't justify with the little use they are going to get.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! :mad:
This is a good option. I own the JES squatty cups and bought them just before (hopefully not after) the sherwood coppers were available. If I had known there were going to be sherwood coppers, I would have probably gotten those.

I still like the look of the bead better on the PF cups over the sherwood but I think I could get used to it, especially if someone wants to send me a set because they feel bad for me being so undecided and all.

Carlos,
You already know what you're going to do anyway... which is get one set of each. You might as well come clean and admit it!!!!


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Postby C. Hampton » 04/23/04 12:42 PM

Pete,

I am sure you got something to say on this one.
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Postby Rafael Benatar » 04/24/04 03:03 AM

Hola Carlos,
You might want to take a look at the Dutch van Dokkum cups. I have a mini-set and they're wonderful. The regular-sized ones as just as good. Also, although I haven't had them in my hands, I would also check the new Sherwood cups (which come in different materials) and are being adverstised in the magazines. There is a thread on them in this forum. The new ones are without the inlays, which reduces the price considerably.
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Postby Pepka » 04/24/04 08:01 AM

Rafael,
I have not spoken to anyone with the Van Dokkum cups. From the photos I've seen online they look quite a bit like the JP, are they?
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Postby C. Hampton » 04/24/04 09:03 AM

Gracias Rafael,

their site appear to be OTS. Can you give me an idea of their price range?
The Sherwood are gorgeous but they are a little high for my price range, including the plain ones (I am sure that they are worth every penny that Mr Sherwood is asking for them).
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Postby Rafael Benatar » 04/24/04 01:16 PM

The Van Dokkum are, I think, in the $200 and something range. The Johnsons are about the best in their price range. I tested them when Paul Green lent me several sets of cups, and they were about perfect, though I also have a thing about the brass. Miguel Puga was with me and he bought the Johnsons after the test. I personally prefer silver plated or copper. at the same time I also tried the Jim Sisti cups (not sure if available) and found them, to my taste, even better (simpler and lighter, and they come in a beautiful darkish tone of copper). Pete Biro showed me the Mike Burger cups (try www.mikeburger.com - not sure), which are pretty much (or more than pretty much)the Paul Fox type. The only thing I wasnt too fond of is the golden plated rings on a silver plated cup.
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Postby Pepka » 04/24/04 01:28 PM

I think you mean www.markburger.com Carlos, you may want to try Magic Inc. in Chicago. I bought my first set of cups from them years ago, they are called the Miller cups, or the Bertram cups. I think they ran for around $80-$100. These are the cups that the Pheonix cups are based on. I just don't care for the design, I believe it's a little clunky and they don't roll nice like the Fox/JP style, which my routine requires.
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Postby Guest » 04/25/04 05:57 PM

JHonson Cups are the best! I love them- and I find them fitting for any situation. However they do tarnish, as they should, but I always find myself polishing them. That's another thing.

Do you think they should be well kept, or do you think the appearance of the cups should be dull and low key- for performance sake? Normally if I'm doing a banquet or something- I have the cups well polished- almost as shiny as the day I bought them.

But I always feel that I shouldn't polish them, because then it just seems that I'm drawing more attention to them, by having them looking, 'so nice.' I dunno- thoughts?

Tomasko
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Postby David Alexander » 04/25/04 06:19 PM

People judge you more than on performance, so unless your cups are decorated/engraved, they should be clean...that is, polished. You wouldn't work with dirty hands...why work with what might be construed as dirty props.

I have two sets of Danny Dew/Paul Fox Cups and two sets of Bertram Cups by Bertram. I use them as mood dictates. I like the feel of the Bertram Cups....a real "man's cup" as Charlie Miller liked to say.
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Postby Guest » 04/25/04 07:35 PM

I love my van Dokkum cups! (www.cupsandballs.nl) They have a wonderful weight to them and to me, look fantastic. I also got a matching chop cup for the set, which is a great option to have.

The only down-side I've found is that the fake lemons from Amen-Wardy don't fit (they're a touch too tall). Guess I'll have to get the Sherwood cups.... then again, I'm pretty certain my wife would kill me if I did :) .

-- Frank
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Postby Pete Biro » 04/25/04 10:24 PM

When it comes to performing it really doesn't matter. Bob Read uses one cup, one mug and a paper cup.
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Postby Pepka » 04/26/04 02:03 PM

Oh yeah Pete, I agree. But this coming from a man with a HUGE cups collection, plus he sells a few designs of his own!!!!
j/k Pete..... :D
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 04/28/04 06:54 PM

Carlos,
I just recently (two weeks ago) bought a set of cups. I looked at every cup I could find, I was really going to get the MM cups because they seemed real nice, and where not two expensive. I really would have liked to have seen some Sherwood Cups, but for the extra money, I wasn't quite sure if It was worth it.....

.....Then my friend showed me the JP cups. I ordered them that day. In comparison to the MM cups, they are a much better weight, about 2 ounces a cup. Also the lip is not folded on the JP cups, you will notice on the MM cups the lips of the cups fold over and are not one solid piece. The sound of the JP cups are also much crisper and nicer then the MM cups. I decieded if I was going to spend about $130 on cups, I might as well pay the extra $70 for the JP cups. If you don't want to spend as much money on the JP cups, the MM cups are a good set of cups, but I would not trade my JP cups for all three sets of MM cups. Just my opinion.

Also, when it comes to the balls for the cups, I didn't want to go with the Baseballs many magicians use. I contacted Mr. Jim Riser and purchased his hand made leather balls. You can see them here: http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/LeatherBalls/Info.html
They are a wonderful weight, beautiful colors (I bought the red, they also come in an Aqua or Navy Blue) If it is OK with Mr Riser I would highly recommend these balls to you. They are slightly more than the traditional Baseballs, but worth twice what I paid for them.

Hope this helps, if you would like to further compare the JP cups with the Paul Fox check this out as well:
http://store.yahoo.com/ammarmagic/comcupwhenst.html

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Postby Pete Biro » 04/28/04 10:22 PM

Scott: what do you mean when you say mm cups?

Pepka: There is a difference between what you collect and what you use. Sure I have a large collection, but when I work I pretty much use the same ones... either the Hindu cups or the Riser Mini cups lately. Sometimes I use my original Danny Dew Fox cups.

The rest? I look at and enjoy.
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 04/29/04 05:45 PM

Pete, I just meant Magic Makers, I thought that others had used MM to mean Magic Makers earlier in the posts, but I may be wrong. Sorry if I confused everyone.

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Postby Scott Fridinger » 04/29/04 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Carlos Hampton:

Have any of you tried the MM cups? Are the weight alright? Are these the Penguin cups?
Carlos, by the way I think the MM cups and the Penquin cups are one in the same, if you look at the pictures side by side, they even have the same reflections in the cups!

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Postby cataquet » 04/30/04 01:42 PM

I'll second Rafael's and Frank's support for the VanDokum cups. I use a full size chop cup. I used to carry a small cup (Riser mini-cup), but I have found that the audience reaction is proportional to the size of the final load. I'm now working on (and saving up for) a solid cup finale.

Bye for now

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Postby Pepka » 05/01/04 02:47 AM

Pete, Yeah, I know, I get the same kind of flack when my friends find out I bought a new set. I normally use my Riser standards, but have a decent sized collection that just sits on the shelf. :D
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Postby C. Hampton » 05/01/04 07:43 AM

Thanks to all, specially to Scott, for answering my questions.

I think I will pass the MM, and I'll shoot for a set of Sherwoods (Copper). I tried to see the VanDokum cups, but the link didn't work.

Can anyone give me another link or tell me the exact price on those?

Thanks,

Carlos
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Postby Guest » 05/01/04 09:52 AM

Sure. The URL is www.cupsandballs.nl (cut and paste it to browser). I've been e-mailing with Auke about a customised set I want, and he's been very nice. The standard cups run from 300 euros (steel or brass), and the others get more expensive. However, I think it's worth it, as each of the standard cups weighs in at I believe eight (!) ounces. He can also fabricate a cup to any specifications you give. When you go on his site, be sure to check out the "chicken cups". Five inches tall, and five across the mouth :eek: .
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Postby C. Hampton » 05/01/04 10:37 AM

Jakob,

the link doesn't work work for me. Please pass me the e-mail address.
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Postby cataquet » 05/01/04 02:35 PM

Carlos, just click on the address in the message, it works fine. Once on the site, click on Products on the top bar, and then choose Cups from the resulting list. You'll see the full list.

You can contact Auke at auke@vandokkum.nl

Bye for now

Harold
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 05/03/04 09:16 PM

Carlos, No problem, I am a little jealous, the sherwood cups are nice, my wife said she would cut off my....uh pinkeys....If i spent 1000 on a set of cups and balls, but the plane coppers look awsome too. I would stick with the coppers, it is easy to find a wand with copper tips to match the cups. I think all your props should match, my wand matches my cups as well as the wood in the Dean's Box, funny thing is it is the $20.00 two piece wand that Magic Makers makes (I think)....I would say it is a nice wand for the price. The weight is at the right places and it is good to practice with, and if you drop it, doing wand spins, it was only 20.00 or so. Take care.
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Postby Scott Sullivan » 05/04/04 09:54 AM

I may be a bit late joining in the thread but...

I recently picked up a set of the brass Magic Makers cups and I actually like them. I agree with Pepka about the inside of the copper cups. Crap in my opinion. However, the brass are nice. I don't think I'll use these too much though.

I have two sets of cups that I use on a regular basis, depending on the venue. For my local Applebee's gig I use the Jim Sisti cups (brass and tarnished). I prefer the tarnished look because, after all, it's a historic piece of magic and it's presented as such. It just looks right. I don't think they look dirty, they look like a piece of history. The MM cups are very close in weight and feel to the Fox design (and Sisti, minus a bead).

The Sherwood engraved silver cups are my favorite, though. I use them for any corporate work and other 'upscale' gigs. While I agree that the cups don't make the performance, they do make the performer. Afer all, Darwin said it best in Strong Magic. We should strive for congruency with our clothes, grooming and props. If I am wearing a pocket square, silver tie bar, watch and nice suit in a nice venue, I should have a classy set of props. (The cups, by the way, are the only props I actually 'carry' around... the rest is pocket management).

People will make an impression on you in the first 15 seconds based on how you look. If a minute into your act you pull out a penny, it conveys one image. If you pull out a Morgan Silver dollar, it conveys another, even if it's the same trick. They'll be amazed just the same, true. However, I feel the prop must match the performance.

So if you are doing the cups impromptu use coffee mugs. "In the trenches" performing, tarnished copper cups. Underwater, use clam shells. You get the idea.

I'll lay back now and apologize for such a long rant. We now return you to your normally programmed thread.

Scott
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Postby Pepka » 05/04/04 01:16 PM

I got a look at Scott's Sherwood cups last week. Absolutely beautiful! Was shocked when he let me play with them. (No lotion Scott!) They would definately give the image of "this guy knows what he's doing". Now I'm just deciding if I really need to eat or put gas in my car so I can afford them. :D
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 05/04/04 07:13 PM

Hey Scott, do you remember me? I met you at Ziggy's about 10 years ago. I am friends with Jason Karr...
Anyway, not about cups, I just thought I would say hello.
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Postby Scott Sullivan » 05/05/04 06:20 AM

Hey Scott! Remember ya well! Are you still in the Lancaster area? I'll be in town this week or next. Drop me an email and I'll bring a few different cups for you to look at or we can just catch up on times.

Pepka, gas for your car? This coming from a guy who just came back from DC!!! Take care guys!

Scott

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Postby Scott Sullivan » 05/05/04 06:25 AM

Hey Scott! Remember ya well! Are you still in the Lancaster area? I'll be in town this week or next. Drop me an email and I'll bring a few different cups for you to look at or we can just catch up on times.

Pepka, gas for your car? This coming from a guy who just came back from DC!!! Take care guys!

Scott

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Postby C. Hampton » 05/06/04 04:34 PM

I just got the chance to look at MM cups. I don't like the brass as much as I like their cromed ones.

The cromed ones looked very nice (I am getting one), but for what I understand they are not making them any more (due to cromed plating issues). I'll try to get a copper sherwood set soon, and will let you know my findings.

Thanks to all
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Postby C. Hampton » 05/30/04 04:31 PM

It took me a while to respond. Well as I mentioned in my last post I ended up getting a set of MM in chrome. The are nice. Anyhow I was still going to get a set of copper sherwoods until someone got a set of Johnson as a present.
The Johnson are very nice, my only complain is that they are brass, but they are absolutely a piece of computer art. I don't care too much for the croche balls included. For such a nice set of cups they should get better balls, just my opinion.
For final loads I got the fake fruit that Ammar is selling, they look pretty good. That way I avoid the constant search of the appropiate size of fruit every 2 days.

Now I need to go and work on the routine, see if I can have a decent one by the end of the summer.

Thanks to all. :whack:
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Postby Pete Biro » 05/31/04 04:11 PM

If you don't like brass take the cups to a place that does high quality NICKLE PLATING... never use CHROME... Or you can have them SILVER PLATED.
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Postby Robert Allen » 09/18/04 12:09 PM

Pete, I'm curious, why do you say "never use chrome" plating? It's less resistant to tarnishing than nickel. Though there is a lot of variation to the color of chrome plating, some is more blue than others.
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