Hanging Coins

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 07/24/02 11:45 AM

Some say Roth's version Hanging coins is the best version of the plot

What do I think?...
I think Gary Kurtz' handling is superior.
I'll quote myself from another thread: Three things: He added some retention of vision to the false placements. Three coins is better than four... and... THE LAST COIN VANISHES (this is a biggie.)

If you haven't seen the Kurtz' vid 'Creating Magic' pop it int the box and watch the goodness.

What do you folks think...
Does Roth's "Hanging Coins" surpass those which have come since? Is the original the best?
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Postby Guest » 07/24/02 01:08 PM

I have not seen Gary Kurtz's version, but I did see David Roth's version as a layman and I was completely blown away by it.
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Postby Guest » 07/24/02 04:43 PM

Don't get me wrong...
Roth's trick is one of the sweetest pieces of eye candy out there... I easily remember the day I first watched his Stars of Magic Tape (#3 I believe.) ALL the material on that tape popped my eyes out.

Sidenote, regarding his Hanging Coins: I especially like the version where he reprodues the coins one at a time. (I believe this handling is published in Kaufman's Coinmagic.)

Concerning my feelings about Kurtz: Perhaps I'm being swayed by his immaculate performance(s.) Not only is his magic phenomenal, he PERFORMS it well (artistically.) His patter is interesting and his movements are fluid. He's the total package. (That also makes 'his version' better ;)

well over my 2 cent limit,
Doug
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Postby NCMarsh » 07/24/02 09:34 PM

you ask a tough question Doug...one that i've gone back and forth on for quite a while...the inability to vanish the last coin always frustrated me a bit with the original routine -- but the issue I have with Kurtz' handling (though I have only read it and have not seen it performed) is that it seems that the vanish of the last coin can never be as clean as the vanish of the previous coins....for the first two you showed the backs and fronts of your hands -- fingers widely separated...then for the last coin you merely show the back of the hand? It seems contrived and manipulative...

one of the comments David makes about the routine on one of his tapes is that its strength, in his view, is that it gets away from the feeling of "look how well he hides the coins" that traditional manipulative sequences tend to evoke...

the last vanish in Kurtz' routine, a very traditional one that ends with a concealment that's much less clean and open than the one used throughout the routine, reads like a "look how well I hide the coin" sequence...but in fairness to Gary I will look up the video...I'm a huge Kurtz fan and have used different parts of trio in the past to tremendous reaction...

I was just watching footage of Vernon teaching the Coins in Champagne glass on the Revelations tapes...the last phase involves retention vanishes with as many as 4 coins in classic palm...Vernon's comment before he teaches the sequence (paraphrased): this last part isn't really magic, its more a kind of juggling thing

the first two "Hanging Coins" vanishes in Trio are really magic...but the third coin? It sure reads more like juggling...

regards,

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Postby Guest » 07/25/02 02:04 AM

My opinion its effect its everything in magic. And when doing magic for layman the importance is people,showmanship, interaction and being a practical method. Not the technique. For that,I dislike edge grip version's, for real working are very angly and its not possible to cover these handicaps with timing and misdirection.
I agree with Curtis Kam opinion: Latta's "quadrakinsand coins away" from Coinmagic of Kaufman fills the bill for being the most magical sequence and practical. I present it as a Hanging coins plot.
Latta has a streamlined version of his Quadrakinsand coins awway in "Spectacle" book of Stephen Minch, but I prefer the original 4 coins version.

Before that I fell in love with Ramsay version on hanging coins but I think i's more oriented to magician tham to laymen and doesn't have the rythm nowadays we need for real working conditions, but its very interesting lesson for understanding the timing and misdirection power.
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Postby Frank Yuen » 07/25/02 08:02 AM

A wonderful and perhaps even more magical looking effect in the Hanging Coins plotline is Larry Jennings' "The Hook". Some might find it easier to perform as well. I've used it to great effect for some time now.

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Postby NCMarsh » 07/25/02 10:44 AM

Originally posted by MCUESTA:
[QB]My opinion its effect its everything in magic. And when doing magic for layman the importance is people,showmanship, interaction and being a practical method. Not the technique. For that,I dislike edge grip version's, for real working are very angly and its not possible to cover these handicaps with timing and misdirection.

QB]
To alter Racherbaumer's great line: "Technique affects effect." a coin vanishing while both hands are clearly empty is a manifestly different effect -- indeed, a better effect -- then a coin vanishing without a convincing display...this should be common sense

Secondly, the angles on the edge grip are VERY good -- keep the coins parallel to the floor and at eye level and you're fine...it's only handicap -- to my mind -- is that it can't be performed while the performer is standing and the audience sitting...other than this is will play in the vast majority of venues i've seen

regards,
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Postby Guest » 07/25/02 01:33 PM

Nathan, if you haven't seen Kurtz perform the routine you must. Your statements about the last coin will completley change when you see how confidently and deftly the last coin vanishes.

I agree it is difficult to make that last coin vanish convincingly, however like in a lot of the routines of Mr. Kurtz, he accomplishes seemingly impossible moves with artistic ease.

I will agree further that Roth's version has it's merits because of the use of edge grip. What a wonderful thing David turned us all onto.

I believe Kurtz improved on the original for the same reasons Conn stated above. If you haven't seen Kurtz do yourself a favor and watch him. He will fool you (badly) in some cases doing things you already know about. Particularly the sequence in question and also his wonderful "Full Frontal Assault".

I have always thought that there are certain individuals that understand our art better than the average Joe. They are able to see or maybe interpret things just a little better than the the rest of us. I think Kurtz is one of those individuals.
Cheers,
Jay
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Postby Guest » 07/26/02 02:26 AM

Nahan I've doing coin magic for more than 20 years, I've written three books on this matter and I know than downs palms and variants needs for concealment. But I'm talking about real professional conditions, and if you talk to professional magicians, above all restaurant workers, they'll tell you the 99,99% of the shows they do people are sitting and the magcian is standing, and many times you're surrounded.
If you read the Latta routine I talk about you'll see that technically its Ok.
Thanks for you sincere advise

In relation with Jennings routine The Hook: Its a very good one, but the idea of going to the pocket several times during the routine makes people remebering that action and its not good for the effect.
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 07/26/02 04:31 AM

Originally posted by Nathan Coe Marsh:

...it's only handicap -- to my mind -- is that it can't be performed while the performer is standing and the audience sitting...
Actually, I perform the Roth handling in restaurants--I'm standing at a table where they're sitting--and I find this an ideal circumstance for controlling that particular angle.

I just hold the edge-gripping hand at low-chest height and it sticks the hidden coins right at their eye height. Invisibility! Bafflement!
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Postby NCMarsh » 07/26/02 10:52 AM

Thanks to all for their input. I'm very interested to see where this thread goes...

Jeez Dave, why didn't I think of that? I'll experiment with it, but I have to admit there's something that seems a lot riskier about doing it for those who are below you...

thinking about edge grip, it seems that one legitimate edge grip gripe is that you will have angle problems with spectators of greatly varying heights when using this concealment(it would seem to me folly to do it for a group that included kids and adults)...

Anyone have any other thoughts about the Roth routine vs. the Kurtz routine? I haven't seen Gary perform Trio and that greatly undercuts my view...but it was interesting to me that Richard Kaufman, who wrote Gary's hardcover, certainly seemed to feel that David's routine remains the better version...does anyone who has also seen Gary do the piece agree with Richard? I'd love to hear why...

best,

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Postby Pete McCabe » 07/26/02 11:58 AM

Nathan is quite right; the challenge with edge grip does not come from the audience being seated while you are standing, or the audience walking on stilts while you are lying on the floor in a drunken stupor.

The problem is if the audience is not all at the same height.
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 07/26/02 12:38 PM

I'm just saying that for a standing performer/seated audience situation (i.e., restaurant), assuming the audience is all big enough to sit up without a booster seat, the differences in point of view are not wide enough to make the vertical angle a problem.

In Roth's Hanging Coins, the fact that you are always holding a visible coin with the edge-gripping hand conceals the held-out coins quite nicely. The vertical concealment angle is pretty wide.

I now make a point always to push my sleeves up before doing this routine, because so many people suspected sleeve vanishes of some sort.
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Postby Mike Powers » 07/26/02 05:46 PM

I've used Hanging Coins occasionally for a table of seated people while I was standing. There are going to be a variety of viewing angles but you are generally ok if you watch the angle of the edge gripped coins.

You can improve the angle situation by using quarters although the smaller size is also less visible and probably a bit less impressive too.

You can dramatically improve the angle situation by moving your 1st finger and/or 2nd finger in. It weakens the open feel of the position but it's better than getting burned.

The standard way to achieve the proper angle is to be sure the spectators' eyes are in the plane of the coin. It's difficult to determine how high above or below this plane someone's eyes can be and still not be able to see the coin...

I might have assumed that hanging coins wouldn't work for a table of people if I hadn't had personal experience as a spectator. Years ago none other than Bill Malone was working at the New York Lounge on Lincoln Ave. in Chicago. Since he knew we were magicians, he hauled out the heavy artilery which included Hanging Coins and also some really hard core Marlo stuff. You couldn't see a thing. Pure magic...

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Postby Dave Shepherd » 07/26/02 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Mike Powers:
You can improve the angle situation by using quarters although the smaller size is also less visible and probably a bit less impressive too.
Okay, here's my big secret:

I do the routine with Sacagawea dollar coins. It's actually the middle routine in a set of three (production, hanging, matrix/assembly). The coins are small enough to achieve the added concealment factor Mike speaks of, yet they're inherently interesting.
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Postby NCMarsh » 07/26/02 09:52 PM

i'm impressed that you can consistently do the routine well with unmilled coins...it's certainly harder -- the damn things are like watermelon seeds...

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Postby Guest » 07/29/02 12:01 AM

My reaction to Dave reply was not bafflement, was respect.

When I choose a trick for doing I use some kind of criterium, mathematically speaking it's something like that:

1/

PUNTUATION= (practicability . x) + (effect . y) + (visibility . Z) + (time . W) + artistic value

The values of: practicability,effect, visibility and time duration are standard to all magicians, but the ponderation variables: X, Y, Z W rely on personal perceptions and are unique for every magician.
For myself practicability its very important,( being angle proof), in your case you have another criterium.
Don't forget than artisitic value its aside the model like in statistics,there is some conditionante that are not mathematicals.

2/
The second part its related to technique,timing, showmanship.. eficciency ratio:

EFICIENCY=(EFFORT/ EFFECT)

With this two ecuactions you can put your brain in good use to magic.

Maybe of interest to someone more than me.
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 07/29/02 04:29 AM

Please let me note that I do not simply do this trick at each and every table, or at each and every close-up engagement I perform. I think this is another way of stating MCUESTA's formulas. For ME, I have found Hanging Coins to be generally practical and effective. It resets easily and is fairly angle-proof if I choose carefully when to perform it.

I perform this ONLY for tables of adults or older kids, when there are two to four people at the table and there are not waiters or other people looking over my shoulders. If conditions are not right, I don't do it.

This should, of course, apply to any magic one does. Just because something is a killer trick that you can perform well doesn't mean you should perform it in every circumstance.

I will just note that I have found Roth's Hanging Coins to work for me, much of the time, in the three or four restaurants where I perform.
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Postby Mike Powers » 07/29/02 05:50 AM

A few years back Gary Kurtz was a featured lecturer at FFFF. In fact his "Misdirection and Direction" booklet is sitting right in front of me at this moment.

Gary performed a version of Hanging Coins for a group of about 5 people in the Precursor suite one night. He used silver dollars! Everyone was standing and we were all very close. Even though I know the basic MO viz. edge grip, I could see nothing and it was as pure a magic feeling as I have ever had. Gary instinctively knows his angles. His "hand washing" technique looks so natural that you can almost believe that the coins actually vanished. He is the master....

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Postby Guest » 07/29/02 08:22 PM

I second that. One of the all time best.
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Postby Guest » 07/29/02 11:03 PM

Uh, this is a long rambling off the thread post:

In my book (worth about 2 cents @ amazon.com) Kurtz *perhaps, is the best. I think he's the most well rounded performer I've ever seen (thoughtful, poetic, humorous, intelligent, fluid/graceful and his close/up stand-up magic is of the highest caliber imaginable.)

I went to a Gary Kurtz lecture in 1987 (not having a clue who I was going to see, preparing to be disappointed...) Then Kurtz started and the magic happened. Not just once or twice, but the whole night. Almost EVERY effectI saw that evening fooled the crapola outta me... (Imagine seeing Flurious before anyone knew it existed :eek: I was entertained and amazed (plus, I learned all the cool stuff that fooled the crap outta me!) I bought it all (sidenote: his lecture notes have effects that are not on vid nor in book.) I even bought the thumb tip with a coin glued on it (that's how devious Kurtz is ;)

When I think of his absence from the 'magic scene' , I sometimes wonder if he deduced; the best venue he could hope for (on a regular basis) was 'lecturing' on magic. It's a surreal enviroment... but it's not 'real.'

So, I guess ya go mental... where the cash is. Gotta live.

Venue = big prob for close-up workers (speaking of "Workers" and 'venues' go read your Mike Close now.)

Well, I don't wanna twist the original intent of this thread, just wanted to (again) express my opinions of the goodness of Gary Kurtz.

I hope he still practices,
I hope one day, I get to see it again.
Doug Conn
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Postby Guest » 07/30/02 12:10 AM

A very good aproach it's in Bobo book "Stratosphere coins" from Dr. E. Roberts,
I believe it's loosely based in Chanin work about coin desaparitions, this method brings the effect to what I think should be.

An aproach not studied it's Bon Ostin presentation "hangin coins" ifrom his book "Fingertip fantasies".

And why not taking a look at Ammar's book on topit; there is a routine where Four coins appear and reappear, it's easy adapting it to the hangin coins plot.

All aproachs I chose have in common that the desaparations are very clear. Because that it's 85% of the effect.
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Postby Guest » 07/30/02 06:55 AM

Originally posted by D.Conn:

I bought it all (sidenote: his lecture notes have effects that are not on vid nor in book.)
Did your notes include "Full Frontal Assault" - I know people post in forums about that routine all the time.
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Postby Guest » 07/30/02 07:53 AM

Dan I believe you can get that on a video from the Camirand Academy. It may be performance only but I think that it had an explanation on it.
full Frontal assault was the predecessor to 'Trio' if I am not mistaken.
On a side note as well......................

I remember seeing a couple of effects such as 'The Ultimate Progression', 'Hypothetical Possibilities' (Which I still perform at least 5 times a day at Disney World) and 'Trio' and realizing that this guy was one of the all time best. It is really unfortunate that he has gotten very little credit in magic. You hear about Geoff Latta and Chris Kenner and Jay Snkey but Gary Kurtz seems like a forgotten entity. I mirror Conn's sentiment I hope for uor sake that he still practices and is waiting for the right moment to blow us all away again.
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Postby Guest » 07/30/02 08:10 AM

Jay, it is performance only in two Steven's Magic Emporium, the original "Magic from Canada" and again in a Coin Magic collection video.

If you are familiar with Gary's work you can follow the routine, but it would be nice to read Gary's thoughts on it in a teaching.
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Postby NCMarsh » 07/30/02 12:16 PM

even when you're familiar with his work, "Full
Frontal Assault" is pretty darn deceptive...it took me several repeat viewings to get a sense for what's going on, especially with the third coin in the coins across section (i think i've followed it now...though, if he isn't using a shell, that last coin still has me fooled)...

in sum, it's a very, very beautiful sequence...somthing for us all to aspire to...

regards,
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Postby Frank Yuen » 07/30/02 05:57 PM

Dan, Gary published "Full Frontal Assault" as a separate routine. I'm considering putting my copy up on eBay and I'll let you know if I do.

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Postby Guest » 07/30/02 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Nathan Coe Marsh:
though, if he isn't using a shell, that last coin still has me fooled)...
He isn't using a shell.
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Postby NCMarsh » 07/30/02 07:23 PM

did i mention that Gary Kurtz is Da Man? ;)
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/11/02 10:47 PM

Is this limited to just the two presentations you mentioned? Other posters have recalled the original hanging coins aka John Ramsay's Three Coins and a hat.

If we are discussing the full edge grip handling of the Ramsay effect, let's give props to Mr Roth.
You may recall that the last coin goes into the hat during the 'hanging' part of that routine.

Is this about how to vanish the last coin at the end of the routine? If you want to vanish that last coin, I suggest looking for answers from folks who have published methods of getting rid of several coins at a time. For example;I have a very small slydini type clip that can be used to quiet the three or four coins as they go away.

Are we are looking at the edge grip vanish sequence that David Roth released in 78, and how to get around the 'coin that does nothing' question? Curtis Kam had and shared a VERY nice idea that takes care of the problem by making it the solution. His solution is the one I have been using for twenty years.

Just for your notes, I have been doing a retention pass style transfer that leaves the coin(s) in edge grip since about a month after David Roth's historic lecture back in the late 1970s. Likewise an edge grip version of the classic coin pass. I am not surprised that David's sharing of his hanging coins routine has inspired other coin handlers to develop similar moves on their own over the years.
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Postby Jonathan Levey » 11/12/02 07:49 PM

Hey,
Troy Hooser has a great hanging coins in his book (DesTROYers)....
It uses gimmicked coins.. But it's one of the most cleanest and visual version of hanging coins around.. It also has a nice ending, in which you produce the sky hook from the air at the end!
Regards,
Jonathan :)
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Postby Guest » 11/13/02 09:40 AM

I asked Roth about the Kurtz version of Hanging Coins and all of his advancements with edge grip technique. Roth simply said that Kurtz did the right thing, "He took the ball and ran with it", was his exact quote.
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Postby Guest » 11/13/02 05:57 PM

I second Larry Jennings invisible hook from the classic magic of Larry Jennings. I just learned it and I like it a lot. But I might be biased as this is the first Hanging Coins I have learned so far.
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Postby Guest » 11/13/02 09:14 PM

Hey guys, don't feel threatened; I wrote Gary Kurtz that I thought he was simply the greatest magician,( perhaps what Kaps used to be?) bar none, he had already switched to mentalism and wrote, "I was never as good a magician as I am a mentalist"; imagine!

Marty J Kaplan
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/13/02 09:27 PM

A long time ago I heard that Gary did a retention pass using a playing card. Have you seen this?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/13/02 10:08 PM

Jonathan, yes, I have seen Gary do the Retention Pass with a playing card. He handled it exactly like he does a jumbo coin, by placing it behind his fingers (the receiving hand is palm DOWN, fingers straight), then pivoting it in to longitudinal Tenkai palm.
I still believe that Roth's original version of Hanging Coins using Edge Grip is the best and most magical.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/13/02 10:19 PM

The Ramsay - Roth plot has some (many?) unexplored aspects.
What is held common as implied by the handlings is that "sky hooks" are some sort of static object and anything touching a "sky hook" goes invisible. Let's examine this a bit...

The idea of a geostationary object has become quite accepted as of about 1970. thanks to such we have GPS. Someday we may have elevators and electrical power generation from these objects in orbit. Perhaps suitable for outside effects like levitations, a line hanging from a satelite would be difficult to access indoors. :D

Given that an object put onto a "sky hook" also goes invisible, one might suspect that the "sky hook" may be some kind of warp or wormhole. i. e. We might have some sort of pocket or wrinkle in space-time offering a place outside our normal lenth-width-breadth space.

While a small warp might contain objects, it might bend or distort a larger object that comes in contact. Talk about a way to stuff ten pounds into a five pound bag... A wormhole might have one end "here" and the other end "somewhere else".

<Digression> For some reason, as I type this, I'm reminded of that trick in Bobo's where you have a tunnel sewn into your jacket to allow coins to wind up in your pocket. </Digression>

So perhaps there are little wrinkles in space-time around. If one could see them, one might put things there till needed. Aside from having a place to find things and a place to put things, what else might happen? Perhaps coins age slower when on the hook? Maybe objects exit a wormhole deformed in some way? How might a magician carry around these things?

This is about gaining some room for new plot lines. Let's take for granted that there is a way to describe folds, holes, pockets and tunnels in space-time that allow all kinds of things to happen. If our rational minds (mathematicians) can work with these ideas, our creative minds can explore them as well. Also, in knowing there is some groundwork behind these ideas one can be more comfortable imagining possible consequences. With the freedom to imagine comes room for ideas. What are your thoughts?
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Postby Pete McCabe » 11/14/02 12:58 AM

Jonathan,

Very interesting. My thoughts are, if you could blow smoke rings you could use Hanging Coins technique to do Zone Zero with a smoke ring. They make a kids toy that shoots smoke rings.
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Postby Kevin Baker » 11/14/02 01:30 AM

Jonathan,

What great thinking...once you start down that route you have so many options. So objects can
- distort in shape
- become heavier
- age more slowly
- transfer instantaneously
- ????

Having the creativity of a goldfish I am forced to admit that I have no idea where these will lead, but I wanted thank you for demonstrating how to take a well-worn concept and expanding the possibilities...
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/14/02 10:07 AM

Kevin, do NOT repeat an entire post because you mispelled something: LEARN HOW TO EDIT YOUR POSTS!!!!
Click on the small icon in your post that shows a piece of paper and a pencil and that will let you edit your original message.
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