The underhand shuffle

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The underhand shuffle

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2002, 3:57 am

I am lookink for new and deceptive full-deck false shuffles. Does anyone want to post a comment on S. Beam Underhand shuffle?
Thanks in advance

Fabio

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 21st, 2002, 7:36 am

Fabio, the best in the hands false shuffles are the Blind Overhand Shuffle in Erdnase and the Gordon Bruce False Overhand Shuffle (it was recently published, but can't recall where).
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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Bill Mullins » May 21st, 2002, 7:46 am

Steve Beam demonstrates his false shuffle in video on his website -- take a look.

http://www.stevebeam.com/movies.html

Isn't the Gordon Bruce shuffle in one of Richard's books, 5 x 5 from Scotland??
A somewhat simpler shuffle than that, that uses the same principle, is Dan Garrett's Underhanded Overhand Shuffle.

Bill Mullins

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2002, 2:50 pm

Re: False Overhand Shuffles

One of my faves; Bob King's version of the 'Erdnase (Overhand) Blind' is OUTSTANDING

This can be found in Ortiz' "Annotated Erdnase"
(in the appendix at the back.)

Conn

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2002, 6:00 pm

Naturally the ever-modest Head Genii knows exactly where the Gordon Bruce False Shuffle was published; for those not aware of this inside joke and in need of a great shuffle, check page 16 of 5 Times 5: Scotland edited and published by Richard Kaufman, written by Peter Duffie.

Randy Campbell

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Denis Behr » May 22nd, 2002, 1:03 am

In a talk with Juan Tamariz about the Bruce Shuffle he mentioned that he was shown this shuffle originally by Vernon who had it from Diaconis who apparently invented it. Then Tamariz showed it to Gordon Bruce (a good friend he oftens sessions with) and over the years he seems to have forgotten this evolution or the source he got it from and published it under his name. Well, I do not have the 5 times 5 book yet but I think this is the shuffle Juan Tamariz talked about and got from Diaconis (block, 3 singles, block, 2 singles, block with In- and Outjogs, then back).

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2002, 6:09 am

The first thing ,its that I've looked for the best false shuffle for a lot of time. Till now the very best is the Diaconics-Vernon shuffle, before that, I fell in love with Jim Krentzs one.

I was one of the very first in seing Diaconics- Vernon shuffle done by Tamariz a lot of years ago in "Jornadas Escorial". When Tamariz did it nobody believed that this shuffle was false in any way. He had to repeat several times. And also told everybody that this false shufle was not written in the program of events of Jornadas Escorial; because Vernon when met Tamariz told him Ill show something something very useful (Dai knew the interest of Juan in ,menmonic deck), and Dai did the shuffle, Tamariz after seing an aparent ordinary shuffle didnt understand what was that useful for, and Vernon repeated it, Juan yet didnt understand till told him it was a total false shuffle. Juan jaw was wide open. And Vernon explained it to him, after that Juan asked Vernon for his creator and he talked about Diaconics. Juan asked about showing it to magicians and Vernon at first didnt want, but Juan finished saying: Only for friends. And that was what he did in Jornadas El Escorial, showing it and his own version to 15 magicians, who respected Vernon decision, Only a very few used it (I one of them) because its not an easy one. I showing it to my friend Pit Harlin who, I suppose, widespread in Germany.

I dont know Gordon Bruce shuffle but I supposse, because has happened more times, that its not from him, because, I want to supposse, he has a weak memory.

The only good thing about this unfortunate fact, its that this marvellous false shuffle would be available to magicians, unlike, for example Henry Christ material, which is relegated to a drawing room in the hands of a jelaous magician, who cannt perceive the good action he would do to progress magic as an art.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Denis Behr » May 22nd, 2002, 10:29 am

Yes, that is the same story as it was told to me by Juan Tamariz (except the fact that he added that the shuffle is now published by Gordon Bruce in the Scotland book without proper credit).
Originally the Shuffle was indeed shown to me by Pit Hartling. Since Pit is a very good friend of mine I do not know how much he widespread the shuffle in Germany in general. Anyway it is published now and I agree that this is simply the best overhand false shuffle available.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Alpen » May 22nd, 2002, 11:40 am

Does anyone know if the original Diaconis/Vernon shuffle is published anywhere, or does anyone know the basic handling of it?

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby pduffie » May 22nd, 2002, 12:35 pm

There is no "Diaconis/Vernon shuffle"!

Gordon sent the shuffle to Vernon in 1971. Vernon showed it to Diaconis. Diaconis started showing it to a few people without credit - it became known as the "Diaconis Shuffle." Diaconis NEVER corrected this. I happen to have copies of all Gordon's early correspondence with Vernon, while Gordon was still at school, and then after he left school and went to University. I have put up a copy of the relevant parts of a letter here:

http://www.peterduffie.pwp.blueyonder.c ... vernon.htm

"If" Vernon told Tamaritz that the shuffle belonged to Diaconis, he either forgot, or was confused. Check out the 1971 letter.

Best Wishes

Peter

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 22nd, 2002, 2:02 pm

Vernon was never very good about that sort of thing. The Cull and Stock I published in last December's Dai Vernon issue of Genii was published in the book Magic Circle Magic without any credit to anyone other than Vernon. Reading Vernon's letter to Ross, where he describes the thing (which I published in Genii) one certainly gets the impression that the Cull and Stock is Vernon's!
Then I received a letter from Herb Zarrow which I published in the "Messages" section which credits the Cull and Stock to someone else entirely who showed it to Vernon!
So, none of this confusion surprises me at all.
And, I really did NOT remember that Gordon Bruce's shuffle was in "Five Times Five: Scotland." Who could remember back that far ... before Genii.
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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2002, 2:25 pm

Interesting stories.

Peter, why do the handwriting styles differ so much on page one and two of the letters you posted?

Inquiring mind wants to know.

Randy Campbell

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby pduffie » May 22nd, 2002, 3:00 pm

Hi Randy

Gordon seems to have these two writing styles throughout the whole correspondence - about 60 pages - switching at various points. I don't find it odd because I used to have two writing styles too when I was that age - I finally settled on a printed style as I got tired trying to read people's scrawls and didn't want to be like that.

Or, maybe we're a tad schizophrenic here in Scotland...

Best Wishes

Peter

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2002, 1:16 pm

Try the Rezvani (sp?) false shuffle in

"The Magic of Rezvani".

I'm not sure I spelled the name right...

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Bob Farmer » May 24th, 2002, 12:11 pm

As I've said here before, I've been using Dan Garrett's "Underhanded Overhand Shuffle" for years (it's in several of his booklets, I learned it from "Garrett Does The UK, 1991). It doesn't use jogs or breaks and it's almost impossible to screw up.

After reading the raves about the Gordon Bruce False Shuffle, I looked it up and it is everything Richard says it is.

Playing around with both shuffles, I took the best elements of each and I've come up with the Garrett Bruce False Shuffle.

It only uses one injog and no out jogs. If you know Dan Garrett's shuffle, the following will make sense:
(the rhythm is 1-2-3-4-5)

1. Undercut 80% of the deck.
2. Run 1-2-3-4 cards, injogging the forth.
3. On the "5" count, throw a block of about 15 cards.

4.Run 1-2-3-4 cards (do not injog or outjog the 4th card).

5. As you throw the remainder of the deck on the "5" count, use the Garret idea to steal back all the cards underneath this block.

6. At the same time as you use Dan's idea, your right thumb presses down on the injog and takes a break.

7.Now run 1-2-3-4 cards and throw everything above the break on top.

8. Now run 1-2-3-4 cards and throw the remainder on top.

I think you'll find eliminating the outjog makes this a lot smoother.

I think this leaves the deck in its original order, but I haven't double-checked.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Bob Farmer » May 24th, 2002, 12:21 pm

Here's the info on The Magic of Rezvani: this was a French book by Maurice Sardina written in 1946. The book is about the Iranian magician Medjid Kan Rezvani. Dariel Fitzkee published his English translation in 1949.

Chapter 1 has explanations of an overhand, full-deck false-shuffle (an optical illusion is the method), a dovetail false shuffle on the table, a dovetail false shuffle in the hands, a riffle pass and other sleights.

It's a great book with an interesting variety of material -- especially the cups-and-balls -related material.

It is a small paperback booklet of about 90 pages and should be easy to find (someone should repreint this -- it's a great book).

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Bob Farmer » May 25th, 2002, 8:08 am

Okay, I've worked on this some more and here's a method that doesn't use any outjogs or injogs. Again it combines the best elements of the Gordon Bruce Shuffle and the Dan Garrett shuffle. I haven't revealed what the Garrett subtlety is because Dan sells this idea (contact him at DanGarrett@aol.com).

Let's call this the GorDanBo Virtual Shuffle in honour of the vast contributions I've made to cultural life in Scotland.

The rhythm is 1-2-3-4-5. Assume an overhand shuffle from the right hand into the left hand.

1. Right hand undercuts 80% of the deck, leaving 20% in left hand.

2. Run 1-2-3-4 cards from the right hand onto the cards in the left.

3. On the "5" count, throw half of the remaining cards, but as they hit, take a left little finger break under them.

4.Run 1-2-3-4 cards.

5. As you throw the remainder of the deck on the "5" count, use the Garrett idea to steal back all the cards underneath this block -- and take over the left little finger break with the right thumb.

6. Now run 1-2-3-4 cards and throw everything above the break on top.

8. Now run 1-2-3-4 cards and throw the remainder on top.

You're done.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby John Pezzullo » May 26th, 2002, 1:50 am

Let's call this the GorDanBo Virtual Shuffle......
Why not call it the BruGarFar Virtual Shuffle?

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Steve Dulaney » May 15th, 2010, 8:59 pm

I read with interest in regrads to underhand shuffle with Garrett/Bruce methods. However, I learned G.W.Hunter underhand method in Vernon's Expanded Lecture Booklet by Magic Inc, years ago. I found Bob Farmer's explanation of Garret's underhand shuffle will work with G. W. Hunter shuffle method.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Pete McCabe » May 15th, 2010, 11:04 pm

Here's something for users of Garrett's shuffle:

You're holding a break over the selection in the middle. Overhand shuffle as follows:
Throw all above the break
Run 3
Do the move from the garrett shuffle
Run 2
Throw the rest on top.

The result is that the card below the break goes to the top and the rest of the deck is unchanged. You can replace the 3 and 2 with any n and n-1.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Steve Thompson » May 20th, 2010, 4:25 pm

Hi

Alex Elmsley created this one. I've never seen better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkrdiPmJ ... re=related

Cheers

Steve

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Joe Mckay » May 20th, 2010, 6:43 pm

Do you know where Alex published it? I don't remember seeing it in the Minch books...

Joe

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Steve Thompson » May 21st, 2010, 4:17 am

Hi Joe

I'm sorry I don't. Richard may be able to point you in the right direction.

I will warn you though, it takes work to get it looking sloppy and moving well. I think it's great but it will take some investment.

Steve

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Joe Pecore » May 21st, 2010, 6:14 am

The comments on the video says it was written up in an issue of Genii.
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Joe Mckay » May 21st, 2010, 9:16 am

Yeah - those comments confuse me since I cannot remember such a thing appearing in print. Alex has had a couple of items in GENII over the past decade, but neither was a false shuffle.

All the best,

Joe

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Jim Maloney » May 21st, 2010, 12:07 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:Yeah - those comments confuse me since I cannot remember such a thing appearing in print. Alex has had a couple of items in GENII over the past decade, but neither was a false shuffle.

All the best,

Joe


The comments (from two years ago) reference the "June issue of Genii". That'd be the David Regal issue in 2008. Perhaps it was written up as part of one of his tricks? I don't recall, but I'd be happy to pull it out when I get home and check. (Or perhaps David might have some insight if he's reading this.)

Edit: Wait, I take that back. The comment was made in January 2008, so we'd be looking at the June 2007 issue

-Jim
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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Steve Thompson » May 21st, 2010, 12:27 pm

Guys - there's some confusion

Let me try to clear it up

I invented the shuffle and David Acer wrote it up for Genii. It was due to go in that June I believe. However, Richard pulled it as he recognized that Alex Elmsley had invented it 30years previous. So it never made it into Genii. Sorry - the comment on youtube is way out of date.

So I don't know where Alex wrote it up, all I know is that he did.

Sorry I can't help more

S

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Jim Maloney » May 21st, 2010, 12:33 pm

Ok, now...RICHARD! Where's the reference? ;)

Thanks, Steve.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Jason England » May 31st, 2010, 4:52 am

This shuffle was also published in Apocalypse (Vol. 7, No. 5) in 1984. It was attributed to Pascal Monmoine at the time.

I've been told by several knowledgeable magicians that the move is actually Elmsley's, but I've never been able to find a source. It's certainly not in the books, as was previously mentioned.

I've been told it was in a set of lecture notes, but I've been unable to locate any set of notes with this shuffle in it.

Anyone here have any depth in Elmsley notes and care to check?

Jason England

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Joe Mckay » May 31st, 2010, 7:21 am

Quick question.

Does anyone here know Pascal Monmoine - or know what he is up to these days? His name used to pop up in SPELLBINDER, PABULAR and APOCALYPSE magazine. His ideas were often the highlight of those publications. Some really creative ideas there. But - I never see his name anymore.

Does anyone know what happened to him?

Joe

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby brianhebert » May 31st, 2010, 9:18 am

It mentions an Elmsley false shuffle in The Annotated Erdnase. p.185


"A more promising approach is Alex Elmsley's"The Casual False Shuffle," Karl Fulves, Riffle Shuffle Technique Part III, pp.158-159"

Not sure if it helps but I do not have Riffle Shuffle Technique III to check it out.

Brian Hebert

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Denis Behr » May 31st, 2010, 10:05 am

This is a different shuffle.

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby brianhebert » May 31st, 2010, 12:42 pm

Could you elaborate on the shuffle from Riffle Shuffle Technique III?
The only reason I brought it up was because it was mentioned in the section on full deck overhand blind shuffles. Could the shuffle in the Fulves' manuscript be a precursor to his work on this shuffle?

Thanks

Brian Hebert

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Philippe Billot » May 31st, 2010, 1:35 pm

In a french magazine, called Imagik, no. 33, october 2001, we have the description of this Elmsley's False Shuffle.
There is no reference but there is another trick translate in the same issue, which comes from his Lecture Notes entitled "Alex Is at it again" published in 1997.

I haven't these notes but may be there is the description of the false shuffle.

There is an observation by Elmsley in the translation:

"This false Shuffle is a variation of a false shuffle showed to me by Bill Reid a long time ago."

If someone has these notes...
(Who know Bill Reid?)

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby pduffie » May 31st, 2010, 2:36 pm

The above post from Philippe prompted me to check out the lecture notes entitled: "Alex is at it Again" (self-published, 1997) and the shuffle in question is, indeed, there. It's called "Continuous Pick-Up Shuffle."

Peter

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Philippe Billot » May 31st, 2010, 3:07 pm

Hi Peter

Do you know Bill Reid?

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby pduffie » May 31st, 2010, 3:41 pm

I never met Bill Reid, and I think he died some years ago. Bill Reid inspired Elmsley in his Faro work. Reid wrote a manuscript but I am unsure if any copies exist today.

Peter

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Philippe Billot » May 31st, 2010, 4:20 pm

Thanks Peter.

I found nothing on him in the Potter's Index nor Whaley Who's Who

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby Jason England » May 31st, 2010, 5:59 pm

Peter,

Does the write up in "Alex is at it Again" mention anything resembling a time-frame or give any other references/previous publication history?

It seems Pascal Monmoine has him beat by 13 years otherwise.

I was always under the impression that Alex had developed the shuffle in the 60s or 70s, and would love to be able to document that.

Jason

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Re: The underhand shuffle

Postby pduffie » May 31st, 2010, 6:55 pm

Hi Jason;

There are no dates given for this shuffle in the notes.

Peter


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