Ungimmicked 4 coins across

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 10/22/07 07:13 AM

Greetings,

Would anyone care to suggest any sources for an ungimmicked 4 coins across?

My criteria are:

- 4 coins travel, seemingly one at a time, from one hand to the other
- only 4 coins are used
- no shells, fakes or gimmicked coins
- no table needed

Any suggestions welcome
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 08:46 AM

How many would you like?

Here are four handlings that seem to match your requirements given ready cooperation of a volunteer or two to hold the coins:

Jay Sankey/Mike Gallo's one-behind approach (you quietly lose one early on ;)

Roger Klause's "Coins for Connoisseurs" can be done as a coins across.

Al Schneider's Coins Across would not suffer from repeating one of the early phases.

Geoff Latta's item in CoinMagic using his HPC handling.

Really a matter of style IMHO.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 10/22/07 09:07 AM

There are scads of them (as Jon mentioned).

You might also like to look at Kenner's The Deep (Out of Control and CoinOne), David Williamson has one in his book (I think, it's not to hand).

Personally I like Sankey's Mexican Jumping Coins (3 coins) but his and Greg Wilson's three coins across would also suit your needs (as long as the needs can stretch to losing a coin). I'm not going to enter the paternity debate on them, though...

You could adapt any number of coins to glass routines; Peter Duffie has a nice routine in Close up to the Point (which is very similar to Dan Fleshman's handling). Steve Hamilton's version could also be used.

Predicably, L&L have one of their compilation DVDs on coins across - I would imagine for 20 dollars you'll find something.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 09:12 AM

Thanks for those. One might argue that a volunteer's hand is a type of table! Also, I specifically want to use 4 coins rather than 3 - without just repeating the same move.
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Postby Kevin Wiese » 10/22/07 09:22 AM

Bill Duncan has a good routine in his Tubthumping notes.
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 01:07 PM

My advice is, learn a coins-across routine that you can do with other things, like poker chips, washers, cookies, ritz crackers, dominos, etc.

I have had great success with Bob Bengel's coins across routine, which is in his Bengel in Spades lecture notes. It's very direct and powerful and can be used with a lot of small, thin objects beyond coins. It's not the easiest, but it's not that hard, and much more powerful than all the easier routines I've seen.
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 04:14 PM

Yea I have a few! The thing is most of them look over handled! Adding a shell Makes them look so much better! Just think If it where realy magic how would it look! :)

Best David Neighbors
The Coinjurer
www.coinjurer.com
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 04:56 PM

Granted, adding a shell can make for a very clean effect but there are times when I might not have a shell with me, I'm given four coins with the 'do that trick with the four coins for me' request. It's good to have that option of a gimmickless version.

Also the shell doesn't guarantee a cleaner handling. I was watching Al Schneider's Coins Across on L&L this evening and the shell-less versions looked just as good to me.
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 06:11 PM

How about the Deep Backclip Coins Across from David Roth's Expert Coin Magic on page 115 ... only four coins and no table ?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/22/07 06:55 PM

The Roth handling was the closest thing to real magic in a Coins Across that I'd ever seen. Of course, its two-ahead notion is based on an as-yet unpublished handling by Larry Jennings.
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
The Roth handling was the closest thing to real magic in a Coins Across that I'd ever seen. Of course, its two-ahead notion is based on an as-yet unpublished handling by Larry Jennings.
Some of us read that routine and decided to go with the Deep Palm Tenkai Pennies approach instead of trying a two coin transfer into ...

But either way, it's a great routine.
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Postby Guest » 10/23/07 12:35 AM

I prefer Al Schneiders Slow motion coins across from his DVD series, it ivolves 4 coins but only 3 travels, but thats enough. It's a great rountine and relatively easy to do. Involves only two different sleights.

Otherwise I do Sankeys Mr Clean Coins Across (also just 3 coins)

Why 4 coins - 3 is enough.

Tommy wonder has a great routine on his DVD's with 4 one dollars and a Boston box, same in Mark Leveridge "Coming home coins" with 4 half dollars and a Boston Box.

Jan
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Postby Guest » 10/23/07 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Vraagaard:


Why 4 coins - 3 is enough.


I've never done a coins across before as I never had a presentation to go with it other than describing what was happening. I've since come up with one that happens to lend itself particularly well to 4 coins.
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Postby Guest » 10/23/07 07:12 AM

I know, the logic for coins across is often "just" magic. But sometimes just saying " have you heard the expression - time is money - and - time flies"?? "If time flies and time is money, then money flies - watch this". Borrowed from Troy Hooser I believe, but it builds attention and expectation and then there is magic.

But if you made a story with an emotional hook with 4 coins, then I think that is great. Could you share the story/hook.

Best regards

Jan
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Postby Guest » 10/23/07 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Vraagaard:


But if you made a story with an emotional hook with 4 coins, then I think that is great. Could you share the story/hook.

It's still a work in progress but it goes something like:

"Do you ever get paid at the start of the month and by the end of the first week wonder where all of the money went" {show 4 coins in one hand}

"First the taxman hits you for for about a quarter of it" {show 1 coin has moved to other hand}

"If you pay higher rate tax the b****** hits you for getting on for 50%" {second coin travels}

"Add National Insurance, VAT and other stealth taxes and pretty soon he's got 75% or your cash" {3rd coin travels}

"Which leaves just 25% left to spend ..." {final coin travels} " on magic"
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Postby Guest » 10/23/07 09:53 AM

Very nice, Aus. The last line is excellent.

A while back I was working on a coins across presentation where you borrow the quarters and make the pass from your hand back into the spectator's hand. I think I was going to call it money back guarantee or something like that.
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Postby Guest » 10/23/07 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Vraagaard:
I know, the logic for coins across is often "just" magic. But sometimes just saying " have you heard the expression - time is money - and - time flies"?? "If time flies and time is money, then money flies - watch this". Borrowed from Troy Hooser I believe, but it builds attention and expectation and then there is magic.

That line(s) is from our very own Canadian superstar David Acer, one of the coolest, and funniest, guys I have ever met.

I rarely perform any coins across anymore, but I used to talk about "Capping a stack" and how a common scam being used all over the country was to add cash to your bet secretly when you win, and removed cash when you lose. Then I demonstrate the technique.

I always liked Jay Sankey's premise with practicing pickpocketing on himself...
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Postby Guest » 10/24/07 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Aus G:
It's still a work in progress but it goes something like:

"Do you ever get paid at the start of the month and by the end of the first week wonder where all of the money went" {show 4 coins in one hand}

"First the taxman hits you for for about a quarter of it" {show 1 coin has moved to other hand}

"If you pay higher rate tax the b****** hits you for getting on for 50%" {second coin travels}

"Add National Insurance, VAT and other stealth taxes and pretty soon he's got 75% or your cash" {3rd coin travels}

"Which leaves just 25% left to spend ..." {final coin travels} " on magic" [/QB]
I like that a lot. In Denmark I need to let two coins go in the first round :) since we pay 50% in tax :mad: (then health insurance, school, high school, college and university is for free - you even get paid by the government to go to university :D , whcih we kind of like since then everybody has equal access to education, yadaydadayada :sleep: ).

I think your story is really good, because it hits a theme that is on everybodys mind, and they do have an emotional attachment to paying taxes and VAT etc.

Thanks for sharing
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Postby Guest » 10/24/07 05:55 AM

The version I've used most is Paul Harris' "P.D.Q. Coins Across" found in his SUPERMAGIC. It's fast (no repetitive counting) and you are two ahead at the end, so the final coin is super clean. Also,New York Coin Magic Seminar's DVD, Volume One - Coins Across has numerous interesting version of this classic by five coin experts.
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Postby Guest » 10/24/07 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Vraagaard:
Originally posted by Aus G:
It's still a work in progress but it goes something like:

"Do you ever get paid at the start of the month and by the end of the first week wonder where all of the money went" {show 4 coins in one hand}

"First the taxman hits you for for about a quarter of it" {show 1 coin has moved to other hand}

"If you pay higher rate tax the b****** hits you for getting on for 50%" {second coin travels}

"Add National Insurance, VAT and other stealth taxes and pretty soon he's got 75% or your cash" {3rd coin travels}

"Which leaves just 25% left to spend ..." {final coin travels} " on magic"
I like that a lot. In Denmark I need to let two coins go in the first round :) since we pay 50% in tax :mad: (then health insurance, school, high school, college and university is for free - you even get paid by the government to go to university :D , whcih we kind of like since then everybody has equal access to education, yadaydadayada :sleep: ).
[/QB]
If you pay 50% tax up front then by my reckoning that leaves 50% to spend on magic!
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Postby Guest » 10/24/07 10:53 AM

I have always been fond of Paul Cummin's "Underhanded Coins Across" from his DVD "Up In Smoke".

It just uses four coins, and a spectator's cupped hands in front of you. It utilizes the back clip technique he teaches on the DVD.

I have often used this routine in an impromtu situation were I had four quarters only...
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Postby Guest » 10/24/07 12:49 PM

I have to agree with Jonathan and Richard. Roth is the closest to real magic there is in my humble opinion. Anything with coins, it would be a good idea to check him out.
D.M.
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Postby Guest » 10/24/07 01:54 PM

If you really want to go "two at first jump" you might want to explore using the double coin gaff. that gets you two ahead and you can make your own using quarters. I suggest also hooking one.
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Postby Guest » 10/26/07 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
If you really want to go "two at first jump" you might want to explore using the double coin gaff. that gets you two ahead and you can make your own using quarters. I suggest also hooking one.
Sounds interesting but doesn't quite meet my 'no shells, fakes or gimmicked coins' requirement. I'll save that for another time.
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Postby Guest » 10/26/07 11:16 AM

Honestly, I have to go with Dan on this one. The "Underhanded coins accross" by Paul Cummins is the most convincing ungimmicked coins accross if you are efficient in using the back clip. A bit off topic here, but I think the best coins accross routine gimmicked or ungimmicked would still be Homer Liwag's "Coin One." But yes, David Roth has a very clean non-gimmicked version of coins accros and is fairly simple as far as difficulty (but you have to be using a table.) Lastly, even though the effect of 3 fly is using only 3 coins (considering your requirements) it's the most visual as far as seeing a coin go from hand to hand without a table. But w/out the intent of exposing the method, the effect does not live up to one of your criterias. I hope this helps.
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Postby Guest » 10/26/07 11:36 AM

Originally posted by AnthonyR:
...the most visual as far as seeing a coin go from hand to hand without a table. But w/out the intent of exposing the method, the effect does not live up to one of your criterias. I hope this helps.
Let's go there and see if we can put something together that suits his needs.

You borrow four quarters. How about taking one into you left coat pocket (fake put) and that leaves three to go visibly. After each transit you could check your pocket to see of the coin arrived yet (or vanished from left pocket). Maybe for the last coin you could find it in your other pocket before the third coin arrives but perhaps after it vanishes.

At a guess, if the initial actions to put a coin in your pocket come across as less than tricky you are set to be one ahead in the main section of the routine. Then, since you are looking for something in one of your pockets you have motivation to transfer the coins from hand to hand. Okay, that's half the works for the routine (the VCA stuff is in the September 2006 issue of Genii)
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Postby Guest » 10/26/07 11:41 AM

Jonathan, that's very true, I wasn't sure if he wanted to actually display the four coins and use all four coins to travel from hand to hand (an actual 4 coins accross). Of course, for 3 fly, just like you mentioned, you display less than what you are actually holding. The fake put is a very good idea.
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Postby Guest » 10/27/07 12:38 PM

Please look at TOMMY WONDER's version, so simple to follow and to be fooled badly, it's a pure msterpiece gimmickless.
by the way, i didn't say his routine was easy to perform..
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Postby Guest » 10/31/07 05:01 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
How about the Deep Backclip Coins Across from David Roth's Expert Coin Magic on page 115 ... only four coins and no table ?
Had a look at this at the weekend, it's a good job I didn't also specify that it had to be easy. This will take a bit of work but should be fun trying.
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Postby Guest » 10/31/07 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:


I have had great success with Bob Bengel's coins across routine, which is in his Bengel in Spades lecture notes.
Any idea where I might find a copy of these notes?
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Postby Michael Feldman » 10/31/07 11:25 AM

I've performed Paul Cummin's underhanded coins across for years.
It fits all your requirements and is very clean. A very good working effect.

Of course, if you are a bit more daring, Chris Kenner/Liwag's 4 coins and a phillipino is a great 4 coins across as well.
--
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Postby Guest » 11/05/07 10:18 AM

All,
Thanks for your comments and suggestions. This has been a very productive thread for me. Plenty to work on.

Aus
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Postby Larry Barnowsky » 11/10/07 08:28 AM

I have a coins across effect using four normal silver dollars (or halves or quarters) that I've been performing for about 35 years. I released the routine and the original sleight behind this two years ago in a book I wrote called 21st Century Coin Mechanics. The effect is called "Boomerang Coins". It can be done surrounded while standing and wearing short sleeves. The website has some clips showing the Flying Changeover Palm and more.

http://www.geocities.com/larrybarnowsky/movieclips.html

http://www.geocities.com/larrybarnowsky

Larry
The Book of Destiny
barnowskymagic.com
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Postby Guest » 11/12/07 06:51 AM

JB Bobo's Modern Coin Magic is the bible of coin magic. Look in there and you can find a lot of constructed routines as well as a surplus to construct your own.

The hardest part for coins across is the presentation and giving it some meaning besides the fact that coins just agically flutter from one hand to the other. I like the way Strong Magic puts it. The magic has to have a meaning o the audience or it will struggle to make it past the "trick" range
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Postby Leonard Hevia » 11/14/07 03:45 PM

David Roth lectured at Barry's Magic Shop last night and slayed all of the attendees with his beautiful magic. As part of the lecture, David performed about half a dozen versions of "Coins Across" that were gimmicked and ungimmicked.

He most certainly performed an ungimmicked "4 Coins Across" that utilized a champaign glass held in the right hand. One by one, the coins landed in the glass as they disappeared from his left hand. This was very beautiful, and worth checking out for those performers who don't mind carrying a small champaign glass with them.

I still believe his gimmicked "4 Coins Across" is the most practical and magical routine of it's kind. Roth shared a Fred Kaps quote on Kaps's definition of a magical classic: "A trick with the most effect for the easiest method."
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Postby Guest » 11/14/07 05:54 PM

My favorite is the Impossible 4 coin trick from the New York Coin Magic Seminar two volume DVD on COINS ACROSS. Ungimmicked, and the last one goes into the specatators hand. And, your hands look extremely clean at all points of the effect.
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Postby Guest » 11/14/07 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Leonard Hevia:
This was very beautiful, and worth checking out for those performers who don't mind carrying a small champaign glass with them.
Starbucks sells an espresso shot glass (2" diameter, 2 1/2" high) that works well with coins to glass, and is much more pocketable.
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Postby Leonard Hevia » 11/16/07 04:33 PM

That's a nice suggestion James--but there's an actual methodological reason for the champaign glass. It's width is utilized for devilish concealments of the coins during certain phases of the routine. The actual shape of the glass plays an important role in the Roth routine. Wow...lots of alliteration there...
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Postby Guest » 11/29/07 03:25 AM

Personally i think the best way is just to learn various sleights, filter off and creat ur own.
Only when it is ur own stuff then u can feel most comfortable doing it thus, the more natural u will look.=]

P.S: has anybody considered using the technique of sleeving in a coin across routine?
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Postby Guest » 11/29/07 05:24 AM

Masao Atsukawa has one of the best coins across I have seen. His "coin steal" move is probably just as good as the routine itself, or very possibly even better.

Charles Hsu
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