Horrible Wallets

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Postby mrgoat » 12/30/12 02:32 PM

A horrible, unnatural and pointless wallet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKp3qB30y6c
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Postby stereo » 12/30/12 02:35 PM

The add say elegant , excellent,deceptive and magical.
I don't understand ! Life is complicated... :)
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/30/12 02:51 PM

I like the design of the wallet, and the fact that there are lots of slots for credit cards and so on. That makes it more likely to be of real-world use.

The fact that it fits into your pants pocket is also a plus.

But I don't care for the fact that the wallet is placed on the deck (ala Mullica). Never cared for that. And I really don't like the fact that the card appears loose in the center of the wallet in a place that was seen empty a moment earlier, just before the wallet is openly closed, opened, and fiddle with.

But I like the wallet itself and it could probably be used in a better way. I think it's obvious that the routine which is demonstrated is designed to be simple and require no palming to increase sales. Would love to examine one of the wallets and see if more could be done with it.

Nephilim is still the wallet to beat.
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Postby erdnasephile » 12/30/12 04:26 PM

I had no idea what the Nephilim wallet was and had to look it up.

In case you're in the same boat, here's the video ad made by the manufacturer:

http://www.balconyproductions.com/products/nephilim.htm
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/30/12 04:42 PM

I agree with Richard about Shawn's wallet. As for the Nephilim, too much time is spent getting the wallet out of the back pocket and I have never seen a wallet like that one before. So I'll stick with my old Barry Price billfold.

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Postby mrgoat » 12/30/12 05:06 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I like the design of the wallet, and the fact that there are lots of slots for credit cards and so on. That makes it more likely to be of real-world use.

The fact that it fits into your pants pocket is also a plus.

But I don't care for the fact that the wallet is placed on the deck (ala Mullica). Never cared for that. And I really don't like the fact that the card appears loose in the center of the wallet in a place that was seen empty a moment earlier, just before the wallet is openly closed, opened, and fiddle with.

But I like the wallet itself and it could probably be used in a better way. I think it's obvious that the routine which is demonstrated is designed to be simple and require no palming to increase sales. Would love to examine one of the wallets and see if more could be done with it.

Nephilim is still the wallet to beat.


Lots of hip wallets have the requisite credit card slots etc.

The no palm bit is dreadful, but all no palm wallets are, although Bizarro showed me a cool one in Miami.

The Nephilim looks like the most unnatural looking thing I've seen for some time!
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Postby JHostler » 12/30/12 05:34 PM

At this point in magical history, it seems wallets are designed more for magicians to collect and "play with" than as essential utility devices. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that - many are extraordinarily clever. But when it gets right down to it, loading an ungimmicked wallet can be more practical (and nearly as easy) - just not as fun. :grin: In that spirit, I could see myself happily toying with Shawn's loading concept - at the right price.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/30/12 06:04 PM

The Magicical Industrial Complex?
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Postby Smurf » 12/30/12 06:07 PM

As Shawn explained it on the Cafe, the main idea behind the wallet is to be able to show it empty before the card (or other item) appears in it. The main idea with other wallets is to open it and show the item already in it or perhaps in an envelope which is already in the wallet.

Any item of reasonable size can be loaded into the wallet right in front of people even though they have just seen the wallet empty. Is it good? I don't know ... but I think most magic performed by skilled pros is actually very much enjoyed by your average muggle even though we of the wizarding world find many reasons why we don't like something. (Looks in mirror and sees self.)
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/30/12 06:23 PM

Smurf wrote:The main idea with other wallets is to open it and show the item already in it or perhaps in an envelope which is already in the wallet.

And that's why the Card to Wallet is so powerful. The audience wonders how the card (or ringany small item) gets into the wallet while it was out of sight the entire time. With this version, logic says that the item was somehow secreted into the wallet after it came from the pocket. And, of course, logic is correct.
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Postby Smurf » 12/30/12 06:50 PM

I don't see where there is a compelling strength to the traditional CTW method in regards to the "logic" which might satisfy a spectator that they have figured out the effect.

Brute force spectator logic says the magician put the card in the wallet before the wallet was opened/given to me...even if I can't figure out how exactly the magician did it.

In such a case, the "magic" of the moment is lost regardless of how the load was accomplished.

How can you best steer the spectator from that? With a hand that is perhaps hidden as it goes into your jacket/pants to bring out an item that was hidden as well? Opening the previously hidden item reveals a card! How did it get there? What does logic say?

It has been a traditional scenario in magic to show a container empty before "magically" producing an item (or items) from it. I can't imagine that to most people having the container hidden and not showing it empty before the production helps the illusion in any way.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/30/12 07:07 PM

The Nephilim is a great wallet. You can get a card in there so many different ways, and it functions very nicely as a real wallet for your trousers pocket. I never wear a jacket, so any wallet that needs to go in a jacket pocket just isn't going to work for me at this point in my life.

Also, personally, I feel that if you don't palm the card in order to do Card to Wallet, you might as well not do the trick.
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Postby Asser Andersen » 12/30/12 07:26 PM

In response to an above post from Mr. Goat (sorry, can''t find a way to paste it)

Excuse me - But why are all no palm wallets horrible? Have you tried Eugene Burgers presentation for the Mullica wallet? The load is perfectly covered and it truly mystifies the audience how the signed card can be produced from the wallet.
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Postby Smurf » 12/30/12 07:49 PM

Now that the cafe is back up, you can read Shawn's own thinking about the wallet on this page. The wallet is NOT a slam bang hit there either.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... 3&start=30
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/30/12 08:04 PM

The Cafe thread is interesting, though Shawn's response is weakened by Merc Man rebutting it point for point a few posts later.

I suppose that if you like the idea of having a card appear when you open, close, and then open the wallet again you might like this. But it's not mysterious or truly magical ... it's just surprising. It's much better to palm the card into the wallet, then slowly open a zippered compartment and bring out the signed card. That's one of the most miraculous goddam things you can do as a magician.
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Postby Smurf » 12/30/12 08:38 PM

I don't know if Alexander Klle was having a bad day when he filmed the Nephelim wallet, but he sured fiddled around alot when he had to remove it from his back pocket. And unless my eyes were deceiving me, he has to start out with a another gimmick in his hands. Of course muggles probably don't notice any of that.

Whatever Himber was doing before hasn't stayed on the market or it has been well hidden. (probably published in a magazine)

Houdin's routine of pulling out the card on his own from the wallet is quite different from Shawn's.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/30/12 09:54 PM

Smurf, you're missing the points of Merc Man's statements.
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Postby Shaun » 12/30/12 10:16 PM

I think it's a g great wallet personally.

Having going through showing the wallet to the spectator then handing them the wallet and proceeding finishing a routine etc, having them open the wallet to find their card lying there sounds pretty darn magical to me!!

I think there's plenty of possibilities with this.
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Postby Q. Kumber » 12/31/12 01:00 AM

Harry Robson showed me his new card to wallet yesterday. It is hip style and includes his instant reset feature. It's big advantage is that after you have done the necessary, you hand the wallet to your participant and they keep it in their possession.

It is a simple fold in half hip-style wallet with slots for credit cards and a pocket for bills, with a snap fastener tab.

For the big finish, your helper opens the wallet, opens an inner compartment, and they remove the sealed envelope and open it. All in their hands.

I was impressed.

Incidentally, for an exceptionally well constructed C2W routine, check out Francis Carlyle's from his book by Roger Pierre, now available from Todd Karr's Miracle Factory on CD-ROM.
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Postby erdnasephile » 12/31/12 03:31 AM

RE: The Carlyle C2W

Is the routine described in the book the actual way Mr. Carlyle performed it?

The reason I ask is that I've always been rather disappointed with that book in the way it was written and designed. It seemed like a lot of really fine details were missing in many of the write ups compared to the Stars of Magic writeups of his effects and his self-written lecture notes.

I never saw Mr. Carlyle perform nor did I know him, so I'd love to know what the more knowledgeable folks of the forum think please.

(Maybe Mr. Carlyle is the subject of RK's secret project? If so, that'd send me over the moon! :) )
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Postby Ian Kendall » 12/31/12 05:39 AM

For ease of use and practicality you just need one of the early Jerry O'Connell wallets (the ones with the stiffer leather). Instant reset, easy load and very practical. I've used one as my main wallet (either jacket or hip pocket) for twenty years now.

In the past I've echoes Richard's comment; if you cannot palm, you should not be doing card to wallet. If you want to do the effect, learn to palm.

As to showing the wallet empty first, this is running without being chased. If you are using your everyday wallet (which you should be doing) it should be inferred that it is unloaded already. After two decades of doing this effect, I've never once been asked about this.
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Postby Q. Kumber » 12/31/12 05:40 AM

I agree the book could have been better written.

As to Richard's secret project, didn't he emphasise the last quarter of the twentieth century? Francis Carlyle died in 1975.
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Postby Matthew Field » 12/31/12 06:00 AM

I use an O'Connell hip pocket wallet as my everyday wallet. The problem to me about Shawn's loading method is that you've got to go through the rigmarole of showing the wallet's sides and money compartment, to bring the necessary side of the wallet to the rear. I don't think you can convincingly repeat that action if you want to repeat the trick.

Not for me.

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Postby Matthew Field » 12/31/12 06:08 AM

Having read Shawn's Caf post, I realize that his goal was the "card appears in previously shown empty wallet" and, as such, it would make sense to show the wallet empty again (and thus have the cover for the load).

Still not for me.

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Postby erdnasephile » 12/31/12 06:28 AM

Q. Kumber wrote:I agree the book could have been better written.

As to Richard's secret project, didn't he emphasise the last quarter of the twentieth century? Francis Carlyle died in 1975.


Yes, I believe you are right. (Rats!)

Nevertheless, a Francis Carlyle issue of Genii would be great to see. He's one of the legends I'd love to know more about.
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Postby Jonathan Pendragon » 12/31/12 06:49 AM

I didn't read all the posts, so if I am being redundant, I apologize. It's only momentary, but placing the wallet on the deck diminishes the effect even with the covering actions. The wallet looks busy, it's nature is ill defined, which also weakens the impact. I was impressed with the card to mouth.
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Postby mrgoat » 12/31/12 07:06 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:The Nephilim is a great wallet. You can get a card in there so many different ways, and it functions very nicely as a real wallet for your trousers pocket.


Maybe things are different over there, but I've never seen a wallet you zip up all the way around, nor one that takes 5 minutes to load a card into.
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Postby mrgoat » 12/31/12 07:07 AM

Asser Andersen wrote:In response to an above post from Mr. Goat (sorry, can''t find a way to paste it)

Excuse me - But why are all no palm wallets horrible?


I feel the same as RK, if you can't palm a card don't bother with the trick.
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Postby Asser Andersen » 12/31/12 08:12 AM

Well I bow to all the expertise stating this, and I'm working on getting my load in the Balducci wallet flow smoothly using the method described in the Derek Dingle manuscript included in the terrific gift bag from the Genii Birthday Bash.
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Postby Charles Hsu » 12/31/12 10:08 AM

I see the Bendix Bombshell/Pimpernel Notecase as great alternatives to the types of wallets we commonly see. It is the latter that I now use.
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Postby JHostler » 12/31/12 12:02 PM

mrgoat wrote:I feel the same as RK, if you can't palm a card don't bother with the trick.


And don't dare bother with any ambitious card sans pass, yes? Rubbish! I've seen just as many magi kill with no-palm methods as butcher their beloved palms. There are SOOOO many clever and deceptive options with both gimmicked (Bombshell-style) and ungimmicked wallets. Why cut yourself off at the knees?
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Postby mrgoat » 12/31/12 12:05 PM

JHostler wrote:
mrgoat wrote:I feel the same as RK, if you can't palm a card don't bother with the trick.


And don't dare bother with any ambitious card sans pass, yes? Rubbish! I've seen just as many magi kill with no-palm methods as butcher their beloved palms. There are SOOOO many clever and deceptive options with both gimmicked (Bombshell-style) and ungimmicked wallets. Why cut yourself off at the knees?


I only do one turnover pass right at the start of my ambitious routine!

Can you link to a video of someone doing a good no palm card to wallet? I've never seen one, as stated earlier by a few people, the wallet having to touch the deck just ruins the trick for me, but I am totally willing to be educated about it if there's a good routine you can show?

Thanks
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Postby JHostler » 12/31/12 12:19 PM

Two quick examples: John Mendoza's Bombshell routine (on one of his DVD sets) employs a strategy wherein the wallet never touches the deck. Alan Alan also developed an absolutely devious tactic for secretly transporting a selected card to jacket pocket - one that I retrofitted for card-to-wallet a few years ago. I'll email you a copy.
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Postby Doomo » 12/31/12 12:31 PM

Funny you should mention Mendoza's routine. He now uses my HipPocket Bombshell wallet to do it with...
RFA Productions yeah... It is cool stuff.

www.rfaproductions.com
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Postby JHostler » 12/31/12 12:40 PM

Doomo wrote:Funny you should mention Mendoza's routine. He now uses my HipPocket Bombshell wallet to do it with...


Mendoza was one of the first guys to blow me away behind a demo counter - roughly three decades ago at Gene Devoe's Magic Den, if I remember correctly. Good guy with a strangely polarized reputation amongst magicians, who seem to either love or hate his style. (Lay folk dig it, so fooey on the rest of us!)
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Postby Ian Kendall » 12/31/12 01:11 PM

And don't dare bother with any ambitious card sans pass, yes? Rubbish!


That's apples and oranges, and I think you know that (and for the record, I don't use a pass for Ambitious card either, just three or four top changes. But I digress...)

The _point_ of a card to wallet (or any object to impossible location, for that matter) is that the final destination should be in play for as little time as possible. If you change this around, you are just providing more possible solutions, often to the dilution of the effect.

For example, the ideal (and certainly my target) is to show that a selection is missing from wherever, show (subliminally if possible) an empty hand as you go to the pocket to remove the wallet, and then show the card in the wallet. Anything else is diluting the effect.

A tip for people who want to learn this; if you are concerned about the time it takes to load your wallet, use a two step process. On the first trip to the pocket (to replace a pen, or get a wand or whatever) half load the card. This way you can show an empty hand and load the card much more quickly.
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Postby erdnasephile » 12/31/12 01:17 PM

JHostler wrote:Two quick examples: John Mendoza's Bombshell routine (on one of his DVD sets) employs a strategy wherein the wallet never touches the deck...


I just looked up that routine in John: Verse Two. It is very clever, but while techinically a card to wallet, it's more like a transposiiton routine with 4 distinct cards.

I sort of categorize it with Scotty York's Escape from Bulgaria, which is another transposition that is also a card to wallet.

I think the Mendoza routine sans palms that is more in line with the spirit of the other C2Ws in this thread is "The Card in the Wallet" in "The Book of John", page 101.
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Postby erdnasephile » 12/31/12 01:20 PM

I have a Card to Wallet (dumb) question:

Do you prefer withdraw the card from the zippered pocket/envelope face down or face up?

Sometimes I think coming out with it face down just causes the climax to drag. OTOH, I've heard it argued that the face down card gives the audience time to think: "Oh, man, there is no way that's my card!", thus strengthening the climax.
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Postby JHostler » 12/31/12 01:21 PM

Ian Kendall wrote:
And don't dare bother with any ambitious card sans pass, yes? Rubbish!


That's apples and oranges, and I think you know that (and for the record, I don't use a pass for Ambitious card either, just three or four top changes. But I digress...)

The _point_ of a card to wallet (or any object to impossible location, for that matter) is that the final destination should be in play for as little time as possible. If you change this around, you are just providing more possible solutions, often to the dilution of the effect.


Actually, I would argue apples and apples (in that the disputed assertions both put method before effect)! But my biggest point of contention involves your statement that the "final destination should be in play for as little time as possible." This is highly dependent on the routine, and whether or not additional magic (i.e., something other than the card-to-impossible-place) is embedded. I'd again reference the Mendoza routine, in which a double card-to-wallet serves as a kicker ending to an observation test. The fact that the wallet is out in the open from the start adds significantly to the effect.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 12/31/12 01:30 PM

Doomo's wallets . . .

I've got more than a couple.

1. Learn to effectively palm.
2. Call RFA productions up and ask Rosie what wallets are in stock.
3. If you're not a jerk, you can ask Doomo some questions about which wallet will work for you.
4. Send RFA the dough and you're all set.

I suspect Tony Miller knows more about card to wallet than any other ugly man on the planet.

KG
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