November 2008 Genii - Ramsay's Coins and Cylinder

Discuss the tricks and sleights which appear in Genii.

Postby DAH » 08/29/12 02:25 PM

Hi all,

Been using Ask Alexander to do Inform myself further about a magician that completely intrigues me, John Ramsay.

I eventually came across the November 2008 Genii which contained a great amount of Ramsay info by Edwin Dawes as well as reprint of the Farelli account of the Coins and Cylinder. Figure 22a of the photos has me a bit puzzled though as it shows Ramsay withdrawing the wand as per vanishing the first coin. According to my interpretation of the text, it seems counter to the picture where Ramsay's pinky and ring finger look extended as he grips the wand.

Perhaps Mr. Kaufman can comment since he was integral to this reprint as the article and addendums.

Thanks,
Dave
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/29/12 02:55 PM

I've edited and published well over 4000 pages of Genii content since then, so I really can't remember. Sorry! The issue came with a DVD of Ramsay performing the routine, and if you can locate that, it might help. Frankly, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't put it on YouTube by now.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/29/12 03:07 PM

DAH, have a close look at figure 38.
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Postby DAH » 08/29/12 04:11 PM

Thanks Richard, figured it was a little specific.

Hey Jonathan, thanks for the response. I have viewed figure 38 and it seems exactly as 22a. I'm guessing that the limitations of pictures makes it seem like those last two fingers of the right hand are more fully extended than I think they can or should be. They do seems more in line with fig. 37 though and perhaps his smaller hands leads to a more "natural" unflexed look with regards to the fingers.


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Postby DAH » 08/29/12 05:23 PM

It was brought to my attention that Andrew Galloway may, time and again, post on this forum. I'd be delighted and honored if he'd endeavor to weigh in if he sees fit.


Sincerely,
Dave
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Postby Andy Galloway » 08/29/12 05:58 PM

Hi Dave,

In Fig. 22 the first coin has just been vanished and is in the right hand finger palm which is why the fingers cannnot separate. In figs. 37 & 38, four coins are in the right hand thumb clip position which now allows the fingers to separate. I hope this is of help.

Regards, Andy Galloway.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/29/12 06:16 PM

Hi Andy, thanks very much. Was hoping you would chime in!
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Postby DAH » 08/29/12 06:57 PM

Man, knew I should've read this thread before private messaging. Thanks for responding Mr. Galloway, I think the picture to me just seemed as though the fingers weren't curled, and that just seems to be the angle of the photo and perhaps the size of Mr. Ramsay's hand as I have rather large hands.

I've sent you a PM in any event Mr. Galloway and it would be a pleasure to correspond.

Sincerely,
Dave
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Postby DAH » 08/29/12 07:10 PM

I should've added that my email is:

Sevenofhearts@live.ca

In case the private messages here at the forum continue to flounder.

Dave
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/29/12 09:47 PM

If you can get the back issue, I Recommend studying the video that came with the Ramsay issue of Genii. There may also be a precursor to the "spider vanish" on that film. It's like the mid-air vanish but then his other hand is empty as well. :)

FWIW figure 22a is not in the Farelli booklet. Its addition helps explain the wand handling in the first coin vanish. You can see the trick performed on both of Andrew Galloway's videos (one VHS and the other a two DVD set).
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/29/12 10:41 PM

The Spider Vanish was published by Walter Gibson in The Sphinx in 1918.
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Postby DAH » 08/30/12 02:47 AM

You don't happen to know the issue Richard do you? Or direct me to where that reference might be located?

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/30/12 10:39 AM

Sorry, I can't remember.
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Postby Evan Shuster » 08/30/12 10:52 AM

DAH wrote:You don't happen to know the issue Richard do you? Or direct me to where that reference might be located?

Dave


Check volume 35, issue 6, page 157 for Ramsay's "Slow Motion Coin Vanish."
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Postby DAH » 08/30/12 04:55 PM

Thanks Evan, much obliged!

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Postby Andy Galloway » 08/30/12 06:22 PM

Jonathan,

I have seen a number of copies of the Farelli booklet and not one of them has Fig. 22a and it could have been an uncorrected proof. I`m not sure which vanish you are refering to in the Genii video, but the Slow Motion Vanish in the August 1936 issue of the Sphinx does not look like anything in the DVD.

Andy.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/30/12 07:50 PM

I believe that in order to fill in one or two important photos that didn't exist, we actually created a few "new" photos to help with the description by manipulating existing photos. I hope that clears up the confusion.
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Postby John Lovick » 08/30/12 08:21 PM

Gibson's name for the Spider Vanish was the misdirection drop and it is in the February 1919 issue of The Sphinx.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/30/12 09:12 PM

Yes, and it was pointed out to me by John Moehring.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/31/12 11:11 AM

RK makes mention of "the wizardry of Photoshop" and adding images in his column on page 10 earlier in the Genii issue. One might surmise that the lettered illustrations 22a, 44a, 44b were made from other photos, 38+cork, 14, 10-cork, in the booklet.

Any feelings about using a second lid (and going for a magnetic gaff with a magnet in the lid) for the cylinder to ease the carry issues?

Getting back to the mid-air vanish 0:34-0:36 - the coin was caught in his left hand as per the Farelli writeup. What I was seeing on my monitor in low light looked like an empty left hand when he opened it.

What I was imagining seeing was that he did the catch with his right hand and fingerpalmed it there, pretending to have done the catch with his left hand as a feint - then doing the tossing action with his right hand as per what we know as the sucker/spider vanish. Probably symptomatic of my troubles with the catching action and search for a feint that might help cover the moment later. IE toss, catch (with feint). Toss (wise acres surprised to see it come from right hand) and do the drop-catch. Then proceed with the hesitatation before the third toss as written in the cups book.

Andrew, did you learn to toss a ball over your head and catch it behind your back? Would learning that juggler's trick help a student learn to toss a ball directly along ones center line in preparation for the catch in that vanish?
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Postby Andy Galloway » 08/31/12 05:44 PM

Jonathan,

The coin vanish in the Genii video is explained on pages 97 & 98 in The Ramsay Classics and is essentially the same as the ball vanish on pages 21, 22 & 23 in the book. It was first described in John Ramsay`s Routine For The Cups & Balls by Victor Farelli on pages 65 to 70 and the juggling skill you mention would be a great help in this sleight. No did not learn to catch the ball behind my back, I had enough problems trying to catch it in front of me. This is not an easy move to aquire, but is worth the effort.

Andy.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 05/30/13 12:28 PM

This time it's about the feint with the lid.

Since many magician audiences know about the Goshman salt shaker routine...

How would it play for your audiences if you set the lid closer to the audience at the start and sliding it backwards by about three inches a few moments after each vanish in the routine? IE feinting dropping a coin from classic palm then covering with the lid. The intent here is to take the heat off ones hands and set up greater surprises later on.

What do you think?

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Postby Andy Galloway » 05/31/13 01:38 PM

Hi Jonathan,

I feel that the initial feint with the lid is quite adequate. Any more would tend to confuse the effect and interrupt the sequence of vanishes.

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