Ammar's Complete Cups and Balls Collector's Edition available

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/17/12 04:13 PM

I would say that if Louis allowed someone to see all those books, he did so in confidence (even if no direct words to the effect "Please don't say anything about this" were mentioned), not thinking that someday someone would post that information on the internet while questioning his business motives.

When you visit someone's home or office, you don't write about what you've seen on the internet. It's rude.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/17/12 04:31 PM

If you feel you need to sell off your books, then no one is stopping you. If you want to know what Louis is doing, call Louis.

It's not an accurate statement that putting 20 books, of the original limited edition, up for sale is going to kill the secondary market. These books will be gone very soon. Show me the "secondary market" prices from a couple of days ago, before this was announced and where are they today?

Brad, in case you weren't looking for an argument, maybe you should stop and think before you post. Your original post in this thread had a negative tone and you know it did. "Hoarding" is hardly a positive or polite word and there were certainly better ways you could have phrased your post.

(And for anyone who is interested, this user name is not just used by one person. There are several of us who have access to it. I'm sure that Richard or some of the moderators can tell who is who by the IP address.

It was set up because in the past it could get confusing when either me (Steve) or Jim Sisti posted to an L&L related thread. But Louis also has access to this account as well.

This was also set up at The Cafe to be able to respond to L&L posts there. On my own I no longer post on magic forums and this account will only be used to announce L&L items or respond to L&L related topics.)
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 04:54 PM

L&L,

Are you really suggesting that the law of supply and demand will see effect in one day? Really?

L&L, have you never seen how an auction which realizes a high price for a "rare" item manages to pull out other copies of that "rare" item from nowhere and that EVENTUALLY results in lower prices?

The reason the secondary market increases is because people are fighting over a limited number of available items. When that number increases, once more people acquire copies, the competition slows down and the prices come down.

I can appreciate loyalty to those paying you, but please don't try to convince us that basic economics ceases to hold. Likewise, how many times have we seen the reprint of a book kill the secondary market value of an item. Heck, when The Dance went into paperback, you saw sale prices of the first, hardback edition drop dramatically. It was a different binding and the numbers of the first edition didn't change. But more copies - in any form - lowers market value until those copies cease to circulate again.

L and L, As to the word "hoard", I ask - what word is the better one? We can happily use it from now on. What do you suggest?

Since I am speaking to no one in particular, but L and L in general, I think it is reasonable to ask where these 20 copies come from. Are they copies that just never sold, or were they copies that were never on the market to be sold. As someone who is a collector, and how does occasionally sell books, I have a real interest.

As you are L and L and not someone in particular I assume you are in a position to answer that. Emailing you personally seems to serve no purpose - you're L and L, this account is used to respond to L and L topics - so, here we go.



RK - I apologize if what I did came off as rude. Had I not been accused of being a liar (aka not a "truth teller") I would not have felt any need to defend my reputation. Some of us sign our own names here. If Louis feels I betrayed a confidence, I will happily apologize to him next time our paths cross. Having said that, I can't imagine any book publisher NOT keeping a hoard of their own works. Nothing nefarious about that at all. And NO WHERE did I question his business motives. NO WHERE! I have no idea why "L and L" got so upset. Projection, maybe?
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Postby mrgoat » 05/17/12 05:00 PM

Whoever L&L is needs some PR training, I'd say. Unless alienating customers is part of L&L's business plan.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/17/12 05:39 PM

mrgoat wrote:Whoever L&L is needs some PR training, I'd say. Unless alienating customers is part of L&L's business plan.


Damien,

Your concern is touching. We appreciate it. It's a better magic world knowing you and Brad are looking out for everyone.

Brad,

All of your questions can be answered if you call Louis directly. If you don't have the number, send a pm and we'll get it to you. You're asking about a private and possibly confidential conversation between the two of you, so the two of you should discuss your concerns one on one and not on a public forum.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 05:48 PM

"L & L":

I am asking about the books which THE COMPANY is selling to the public. There is nothing confidential about that.

Were these collector's editions copies which were on the market and never sold (you just happen to have 20 of them, all low numbers of the limited edition), or were they held back from the sales stream? Or - was it a box of them that was misplaced and recently uncovered? That happens, too.

If these books were Louis's being offered through a private sale, then yes, you would have a point. But as per your advertisement, these are being sold through L&L. I am asking about these books, the one's L&L are publicly advertising.

So, Are you here to answer L&L related questions, or not?
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 05:51 PM

BTW - this is what Ammar had to say about it:

SOLD OUT
Do not worry. We will be pushing for L&L to re-print more copies! Please let them know you would like to see it re-published.

"Long thought to be completely out-of-print - we have located a box of the original Deluxe Collectors Edition of the Complete Cups and Balls! These are rare Author's copies.

Authors copies from the First Printing. Signed and numbered by Michael Ammar and Adam Fleischer.

Gold foil embossed, Leather-bound, with leather slipcase. 180 pages."

http://www.ammarmagic.com/cocubadeed.html

This from Denny:

This copy is the Deluxe Collectors Edition bound in black leather and in a black slipcase. This was a very limited release and each copy is personally signed and numbered by Michael Ammar in Gold Ink.
This out of print book is highly sought after in todays magic market even in the regular edition.

http://www.dennymagic.com/products/rare ... ael-ammar/

Bill Palmer was under this impression:

I have a copy of Michael Ammar's Complete Cups and Balls book, a deluxe edition, that has been unwrapped, but has not been opened more than slightly. The book is out of print.

http://themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopi ... &forum=135


Was this product ever designated as being "sold out" by L and L? Fair question, yes?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/17/12 06:27 PM

I have never kept more than a few copies of any of my books (usually 2 or 3) and in some case don't even have a deluxe edition. Ditto for Stephen Minch (though he may have been smarter than me and kept a deluxe edition of each of his publications).

We're both pretty eager to sell as much of them as possible as soon as possible in order to break even and pay the bills as soon as possible.

Since I've moved so many times, I have come across a box of books once in a while that I didn't know was in my basement, attic, storage room, or garage, and those have been sold here. But those weren't purposefully kept so they would increase in value.

If Louis had the foresight to hold back some copies of each book, he has more self control (and evidentally fewer bills to pay) than me! :)
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 06:36 PM

Nothing wrong with saving a couple for yourself. But when a COMPANY begins selling books apparently thought to be 'long sold out' - especially a book whose value is intrinsically related to it's restricted rarity, a book whose secondary market value HAS increased because of said unavailability, I think it is reasonable to ask where they come from.

The increased availability of volumes 'on the market' will impact current price valuation. As someone who bought deluxe editions because of their potential secondary market value, concern is warranted and reasonable.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/17/12 07:17 PM

Brad,

I couldn't tell you the history of these books(just being honest with you). I just found out about them yesterday via email. Louis can tell you. I've taken the liberty to pm you his contact info.

Regarding the Ammar website, to me it looks like they (Ammar) had found a box of them, not L&L. The page you're linking to is from his shopping cart. It doesn't look like a recent post from his blog, so he is not addressing these 20 books as you suggested in your post. And just because it says they are pushing or encouraging L&L to reprint them doesn't make it a fact. Louis could elaborate on that when you speak with him. I doubt there's a market to reprint these books. If someone just wanted the information, the ebook is available for sale.

Denny doesn't specify how many he has in stock. It may only be that one or he may have a dozen. He may have original stock from when they first came out and never sold them or he went around buying used copies and is reselling them.

I can tell you that on L&L's site you could not order the books until yesterday. This product wasn't in the database.

Here's how we operate the online cart - When we do run out of some products,a DVD for example that is out of stock, it may be a little while until more are ordered. In that case we can turn the product off in the database so it doesn't show up in the shopping cart. We don't delete it, it's just off. When more are in stock, we turn the product back on.

In this case the product wasn't in the database and had to be entered as if it were a new product. The book had been deleted years ago. In fact if you look at this page, which shows the new products: http://www.llpub.com/zenshop/index.php?main_page=products_new, it shows it was added to the database yesterday.

So from us, yes the product was sold out and has been most likely for several years. If other dealers still have it in stock, that's not our inventory and we don't control dealers. There were a limited amount printed. That amount hasn't changed.

Because more are still being sold at retail whether it's from us or other dealers doesn't impact the value of the book. I understand your point about supply and demand, but no collectible product is guaranteed to increase in value or is there a time frame for when the value may increase.

If there are a number of dealers out there still selling their inventory, what is our responsibility to that? Maybe you want to sell yours on ebay for $300, but you can't because Denny has it for $175 on his site. That's not our fault.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 07:23 PM

You miss the point. All of these sites I link to affirm that the book was sold out. That's the point.

The fact the l and l site did not list it also suggests that the book was sold out.

Now there are 20 appearing on the market and being sold by L and L.

It was sold out. Now it's not.

That is worthy of an explanation and all I am asking. As l and l sold these books originally, led others (including noted and respected names in magic) to believe they are no longer available, and are now selling a other 20 from their stock (stock which was apparently sold out), I believe that is worth an explanation.

Not to me personally, but to the public that seems to have been misled.

I look forward to the explanation. Thanks.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/17/12 07:27 PM

Brad Henderson wrote:
I look forward to the explanation. Thanks.


Let us know how your conversation with Louis goes.

Thanks!
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 07:38 PM

Why should I call Louis? You are 'L&L", it says so right there in your name. You yourself said this account is for answering questions about 'l&l' products.

Years ago You (you are L&L, yes) released a limited edition book. According to your post it was 'sold out'. According to several knowledgeable magicians, including the author of the book, it was sold out. Now, magically, you have 20 more copies to sell

How did that happen?

(that's a fair question for a public forum, yes? No need for secret calls and clandestine
conversations. Your company is selling these long out of print books publicly, not secretly. Why won't you answer the question publicly? After all you are a member of this forum - by your own words - to announce product and answer questions about them. Or are you here just to advertise products and answer only the questions which are convienant?)

Brad Henderson. (not ashamed to sign my name)
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/17/12 07:51 PM

Brad,

I've given you all the information I know. I apologize if it wasn't enough, but I can't tell you things I have no knowledge of.

It's become obvious to me (and others) that you have a personal issue with L&L Publishing. That's fine, but this isn't the venue to resolve that.

You've been given Louis' contact information and he is really the only one who can answer your questions.

Since there's nothing else I can do, there's no reason for me to continue posting in this thread.

If anyone is interested in buying the book, there are still a few left.
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Postby erdnasephile » 05/17/12 07:51 PM

Only 5 more left as of now!
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 07:55 PM

Please do not accuse me of Negative motivations. You have no idea what I feel about l and l. If this is Steve, I recall you becoming incensed by Alain nu's tv special because he failed to use a disclaimer. Someone who doesn't believe in mind reading should not act as if they are a skilled psychic.

You claim, whomever you are, to be a spokesman for l and l. You will not/can not answer the question regarding the magically appearing copies of a long sold out book.

That's cool

But it does not give you the right to impugn my integrity nor speak of my motivations, of which you know nothing.

Understood?

Brad Henderson.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/17/12 08:35 PM

Brad Henderson wrote:But it does not give you the right to impugn my integrity nor speak of my motivations, of which you know nothing.

Understood?



Brad,

Based on your past comments on this site towards L&L (products and people) you haven't come across as a supporter. When the obvious path to your answers have gone untraveled there's only so much we can do for you.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/17/12 08:40 PM

Brad, just let it go. Take it up with Louis in a private phone call if you must, but don't post again in this thread.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 05/17/12 08:52 PM

Rk, I am happy to drop the matter, however I hope you will understand if I am again attacked personally or accused, by nameless entities, of having nefarious motivations. I appreciate your understanding should that again become the issue. Otherwise this will be the last I will post on this perplexing puzzle
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/17/12 09:10 PM

There are no "nameless entities" in this thread. You were contradicted by an official spokesperson for L&L Publishing.
End of story.
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Postby Roger M. » 05/17/12 11:00 PM

Brad's core question was completely legitimate, and was repeatedly obfuscated by L&L.

This has nothing to do with "personal" anything.

L&L dumped 20 expensive, limited edition books on the market long after declaring them " sold out".

The optics are clearly that, prior to the flood of cheap ebooks, L&L thought it a good idea to get rid of stock that they'd previously held back........as they too obviously feel the market is about to tank once they release everything in ebook format.

We're not idiots, and that Brad's question was intentionally, and repeatedly misrepresented did not go unnoticed by users of the Genii forum.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/18/12 12:03 AM

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the comments.

Nothing was obfuscated. All of Brad's questions were answered to the best of my ability. He specifically asked if these books were known to exist and held back or just found. He received an honest answer, which is "I don't know". But I didn't ignore Brad and gave him contact information to the person who does know. At this point, that's the best I can do. Whether Brad follows up or not is out of my hands.

I misunderstood the point of one post where he had links to Ammar's site, Denny's site and a Cafe post. I thought he was bringing up that some dealers may have it in stock or we may be reprinting it. I didn't know he was pointing out that everyone was under the impression it was sold out. My mistake.

Then I addressed that, that yes, it's been sold out. You haven't been able to buy it from us for several years. It wasn't even in our database. But now that brings us back full circle to whether 20 copies were held back on purpose or not. And I've answered that.

20 copies are hardly going to disrupt the whole secondary market. They've been on sale for just over 24 hours and are probably sold out by now. If they are sold out, that brought in only $3,000. But it's actually less than that when you factor in shipping cost, which we pay for in the US and Canada and shipping materials. Hardly anything to retire on.

If 40 people wanted it, then 20 of them are out of luck and now need to find another source for this edition. Enter the secondary market where you can sell it for whatever the market will bear.

If a collector wants the book then an ebook isn't going to change that. People looking for information aren't the same customer looking to collect. There was a lesser priced version of the book on the market for years and that didn't hurt the value of the deluxe edition.

Thanks again for the comments.I appreciate you taking the time to write your post.
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Postby Roger M. » 05/18/12 12:22 AM

Thanks for your response to my post.

It was perhaps being unfair to press you to answer a question for which you didn't have the answer.

For whoever might have the answer at L&L, my experiences over 55 years have taught me that the only difficult question to answer is one for which a 100% honest answer isn't perceived by the "answerer" as one that's in their best interest to give.

In this case, perhaps something like "Yeah, we decided to get rid of our cache of books before they lost value as a result of the ebooks release" would probably be greeted by a grudging "well that makes perfect sense" by the majority of readers of this forum.

Ebooks by their very nature will impact the cash value of the hardcover books they duplicate.
I don't expect it will be devastating, but it will be noticeable.

I also don't see any point in anybody vilifying the release of ebooks, be they of Collectors Editions or not........as long as everybody is being completely forthcoming in the process, and as this somewhat unknown and potentially disruptive (to the hard and softcover market) ebook transition becomes more entrenched in the publishing world.

There are a lot of folks that are, or will be, choked that their collectable book is devalued in any way, and by whatever means.
IMO, that's OK........it's human nature.
I have the L&L Collectors Editon of the Vernon collection. I paid close to $300.00 for it......and although I have no intention of ever selling it (I love it), I'd be choked if the publisher put 30 more "undiscovered" ones on the market suddenly and were selling for $150.00 each.......again, just human nature.

Anyway, thanks for your polite answer to my post.
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Postby mrgoat » 05/18/12 04:45 AM

Anyone thinking of going into online PR and Marketing can use this thread as a perfect example of how people should never engage with customers.

It's quite obvious L&L are in a phase where they are essentially milking the market. They are totally entitled to do this. It is capitalism at its best (sic). It's also obvious they don't like people pointing this out, and because they are advertisers, RK quashes threads bashing them. Again, this is a private forum and it is his right to do so.

But, if L&L leave permanent records of their attitude that are like this thread, it may well put off potential new marks from donating cash.

Something for them to consider.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/18/12 07:27 AM

These 20 books are now sold out!

Thank you to everyone who made a purchase.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/18/12 08:51 AM

mrgoat wrote:
Something for them to consider.


Damien,

Thanks again for posting a comment. It's obvious you care about what we're doing to take the time and comment in almost every L&L Publishing thread.

Like a lot of other businesses we have customers who love what we do and others who do not. With the thousands of customers we have it's impossible to please everyone.

And like other magic producers we get criticized with almost every product we produce. As an example, the "Easy To Master" series. A lot of people felt the title was misleading, that no magic worth doing is easy to master. Yet it's one of the most popular series in our catalog. Despite being on file sharing sites for years it still continues to sell very well on DVD, but also streaming on some dealer sites and now in downloadable files on Michael Ammar's site.

We still get criticized for our audiences who appear on the DVDs. But for everyone who thinks they are a joke, there are others who love them and like that there are regulars who appear on almost every DVD. A few years ago at MAGIC Live some of the regulars were there at our booth and people were thrilled to meet them.

We are never going to please everyone with all of our responses online. A few people on this forum didn't like our response to Brad. But there are others who have emailed to give their support.

The sales we run get criticized. The newsletter we send out gets criticized. Who we follow or unfollow on Twitter gets criticized. Yet people still respond to our sales with purchases, continue to receive our newsletter and follow us on Twitter. Our customers are very supportive of us and our critics typically aren't our customers.

We can't make everyone happy. Like any business we try the best we can every day. Some of those days we're going to miss. If you're hitting a bullseye every time, you're probably standing too close to the target. We take chances at times and occasionally it doesn't work out like we planned. That's life.

There are always going to be people who have something against L&L Publishing. Whether it's personal or otherwise, they will always be the first ones to launch a criticism without asking us directly about their concern.

Damien, thanks again for your concern. As a thank you gesture from us, the next time you place an order with L&L directly, drop me an email: support@llpub.com and I'll make sure you're taken care of with a thank you gift from us.
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Postby mrgoat » 05/18/12 09:03 AM

LL Publishing wrote:We are never going to please everyone with all of our responses online. A few people on this forum didn't like our response to Brad.


I actually think you really don't get it.

Steve, when you are the face of a company, posting somewhere that is recorded forever as public record, if you are patronising, aggressive, sarcastic and snide it reflects badly on your company's brand image, imho.

If you'd answered Brad's question, and if you didn't know the answer, you should have gone and found out, rather than try and be snide and sarcastic you would have looked much better.

I know I am rarely anything but snide, but I'm not here selling anything. In my job I am always grovelingly grateful to anyone that posts any feedback. I tend to find you get more with a carrot than a stick.

Thanks for the offer of a gift, but I don't really see myself buying anything from you. Your attitude, as well as the obvious milking methods employed by your company of late doesn't make me want to support you. Nice gesture though. Should have done that to Brad yesterday and you would have won a lot more.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/18/12 09:14 AM

Again, it's nice to know you care about what we are doing to invest the time to write a response.

Thanks again Damien!
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Postby Roger M. » 05/18/12 09:37 AM

Just an observation.

Customer service becomes intensely counter-intuitive (and exceedingly difficult) when a business is 100% sure that their customer is 100% wrong.

I always try to find at least a little bit of truth in what my customers are either saying, or asking.........which tends to make what can seem to be a bitter pill (for business) easier to swallow.

BTW, the comment that your critics aren't usually your customers wisely included "typically" in the sentence............glancing over my own shelves indicate $4500.00+ worth of L&L DVD's and books.
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Postby mrgoat » 05/18/12 09:49 AM

Roger M. wrote:Just an observation.

Customer service becomes intensely counter-intuitive (and exceedingly difficult) when a business is 100% sure that their customer is 100% wrong.


I get that a lot. People swearing and shouting because something wasn't working on a site, and I know it is their fault as 1000s of other people are using it fine.

What do I do? Smile, thank them for bringing to my attention, issue a full refund and give them extra credits on the service, then I apologise. Seems to work well.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/18/12 10:17 AM

mrgoat wrote, "... because they are advertisers, RK quashes threads bashing them. Again, this is a private forum and it is his right to do so."

This is not true. I lock threads and delete posts and ask people to stop posting when things become a rude free-for-all, or the conversation simply has no further purpose and just becomes a repetitious back and forth that is incredibly tedious.

Kind of like this thread. It has no further purpose. L&L made an announcement, sold its books, and several people have criticized them for doing it. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. At this late date, I don't think L&L is going to change the way it conducts its business, so the advice given to them, while perhaps worthwhile, is not something they seem interested in.

The ultimate barometer of a business's success is whether customers buy or do not buy its product, not people complaining about it on the internet.
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Postby magicam » 05/20/12 02:26 PM

L&L wrote:What difference does it make if the limited editions are sold years ago or today? It's still the same amount on the market, still being sold at the same price.

For starters, I have no ax to grind with L & L. I think the only time I ever interacted with L & L, I found the staff to be courteous and responsive.

Whatever criticism may be leveled at L & L (correctly or not), it seems only fair to note that L & L is selling these 20 copies at the same price as 13+ years ago. In fact, after taking inflation into account, the $150 price tag is cheaper in real dollars than in 1998. So L & Ls gross profit in real dollars from these 20 books is less than it would have been had these books been sold years ago. IMO, that undercuts the argument that L & L has engaged in some sort of scheme to manipulate the market for greater profit.

L&L wrote:No company selling collectible items ever promises the value will go up.

If promise means an express warranty that collectible prices will increase, there is probably a lot of truth to that literal claim, so far as it goes. But in my experience nearly all companies engaged in the sale of so-called collectibles do imply, or do allow the very strong inference, that collectibles prices will go up. Thats simply part of marketing get it now or pay more for it later! and no company should be faulted for engaging in such typical marketing hyperbole.

L&L wrote:Selling these remaining 20 books does not hurt the secondary market because it's not another edition, it's the same edition that was sold when the book was first released.

Assuming the secondary market price for the deluxe issue of Ammars book exceeded $150 at the time L & L released the 20 additional copies, I will have to disagree with its claim, because it fails both as a matter of logic and the laws of microeconomics. This has nothing to do with whether or not a reprint was published and everything to do with the total number of copies of this book in circulation. If the secondary market price of this book was, say, $175, then it stands to reason that L & Ls release of 20 copies of this book will, at least in the short run, depress the market price of this book and deprive any sellers of receiving $175 for their copies. Why? Because those who might have been willing to pay $175 for copies could instead purchase copies direct from L & L for $150. So, contrary to L & Ls claim, the release of these 20 copies does indeed hurt the secondary market, at least for the near future (and again, assuming that the secondary market price for this book was more than $150).
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/20/12 08:19 PM

Repeating what we posted earlier, these sold in just about 24 hours and only brought $3,000, less considering we pay for postage in the USA & Canada and the cost of packing materials.

This is significant for a couple of reasons. The first reason is it's hardly the retirement plan Brad referred to earlier.

The second reason is they weren't on the market for weeks, months or years to affect any secondary market. Denny has this the book for sale on his site. It was on his site prior to the announcement we made to our mailing list (we never announced it here or The Cafe). It's selling for $175.00. If the "secondary market" was so hot for this title at above original retail price, he would have sold it by now. Is every book collector on our mailing list? It's doubtful. There were/are thousands of people who never knew this book was for sale.

It would interesting to see proof that selling these 20 books affected anything. Theory is one thing, proof is another. Where are the ebay auctions that show the price of the book before we sold these 20 books and where are the ebay auctions that show the decreased prices after they sold out? Were auctions pulled once we announced the sale? How about on other sites, like The Cafe's buy & sell section? Or this site?

Denny is still selling the book for $175. His price hasn't decreased. What was this selling for elsewhere prior to us announcing these 20 books? Where were they selling? What are they selling for now?

In about 24 hours these books sold out so that means the secondary market should be thriving just as it was last week at this time. You can't buy it retail for $150 anymore. You can buy it for $175. Are collectors looking to profit from their collectible book getting upset over $25?
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/20/12 09:16 PM

One more point to add to this is that we had more requests for books than we had books. So there are still customers out there wanting to buy the book. If they're willing to spend $150 for the book, they're probably willing to spend $175. If all they wanted was the information, they would have purchased the ebook which was available for a couple of weeks prior to the release of these 20 books.
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Postby mrgoat » 05/21/12 03:37 AM

Now watch Steve try and get the last word, thus alienating even more customers.
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Postby LL Publishing » 05/21/12 09:28 AM

If there are any collectors who want to sell their Complete Cups & Balls book, this is an ideal time to do so. Repeating what we posted earlier, we had more requests for the book than we had inventory, so there are potential customers ready to buy now.

As of this morning, the only place we could find the deluxe version for sale is at Denny & Lee's:

http://goo.gl/nV02x

At $175.00, this is an excellent deal considering we found the standard edition selling for almost $300!

There is a demand for the product and virtually no supply. Denny's copy wont last long.

Our announcement of the 20 copies isn't the only source of renewed interest for this title. Several weeks ago Michael Ammar released an excellent Cups & Balls download "4 Minutes of Fame" and in the demo video he references the book and shows the deluxe edition. http://goo.gl/tQJmZ

If you have the standard edition, you have a chance of selling it for more than your purchase price. There are several sources for the standard edition, which based on current prices, seem to also have become a collector's item.

ebay has one:
http://goo.gl/7v4dq

Amazon has three:
http://goo.gl/6Ph5l

Magic Inc has one:
http://goo.gl/a4pH4

If you are not a collector and just want the information, we sell the ebook http://goo.gl/jfaIE
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Postby Roger M. » 05/21/12 10:49 AM

When compared to L&L....... Richard Kaufman, Todd Karr, and Mike Caveney all seem to be the torch-bearers of credibility when it comes to the integrity of their limited editions and the overall respect they hold for customers who have already purchased their product.

Like Brad, I note that it seems painfully obvious that L&L has decided to hawk the entire farm, and not worry about their customers who've previously purchased limited edition items (or regular editions for that matter).

The Nick Trost book seems another prime example among many these days at L&L.
This is a book that 5 years ago was selling for $100.00, then the 2nd L&L release brought it back to $45.00, and now the ebook is a few bucks.......AND L&L have done all the leg work for the torrent kiddies, and the Trost book will be up on the file sharing sites in a matter of days, and available free to anybody who bothers to look for it.

The Trost book has essentially gone from semi-precious to near-worthless in terms of cash value. (of course it remains absolutely priceless in terms of material)........all as a result of how L&L have handled it.

Of course this last "cash grab" will ultimately render the L&L crown jewels completely valueless, so one wonders what the L&L end game is in all of this.

L&L fancies itself as giving "good forum", but their actions clearly indicate it as lip service, and that they're out to squeeze the last few bucks they can possibly squeeze out of everything they have previously published.

Anybody who declares that releasing additional inventory into the stream, or publishing a previously published hardcover as an ebook doesn't destroy that books cash value is at best clueless, and at worst a damn liar.

The assumption that the readers of this forum can't clearly see what's going on is a dangerous one to make.
The assumption that a few childish posts to links offering books for sale can make it "all good" again is an assumption made in error..........and a clear demonstration that (intentionally of unintentionally) L&L completely misses the point under discussion.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/21/12 11:44 AM

Whether anyone likes it or not, most books will be available as an epub in some form in the future, with many appearing sooner rather than later.

L&L is to be congratulated for migrating most of its titles to ebooks sooner rather than later: I bought the Classic Magic of Larry Jennings the day it was available.

All of everyone's books and DVDs are available on torrent sites now and have been for years. By not making official versions available from the publisher, we are ceding the entire digital business to pirates. Many people will, if given the opportunity, buy an ebook from the publisher if it's available.

So I'm sure that anyone who wants to remain in business as a publisher in a time when there is not enough market for a physical printed book to justify reprinting (Berglas a lucky exception--all my other books will sell out of their existing stock and that will be the end of that) MUST start offering digital versions of the titles. Minch will do it, and I will do it.

Brad, I deleted your most recent post because I asked you not to post in this thread again.
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Postby Roger M. » 05/21/12 12:35 PM

I don't entirely disagree with you Richard.

That ebooks target future customers at the expense of existing customers is a given........and un-stoppable.

That past customers, or the existing customer base is irrelevant is largely me complaining (whining if you will), and not something that's going to change anything.

I'm not sure folks will be able to read ebooks 10 or 15 years from now (how much software still runs from 15 years ago?)........but publishers exist largely to make money, and ebooks are definitely a profit center that will be seriously exploited by those in a position to exploit them.

The only remaining "grind" for me is when this is all hyped as making magic accessible.........when it's really all about maximizing profit at all costs.
It has nothing to do with helping people.
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Postby mrgoat » 05/21/12 12:41 PM

Roger M. wrote:I'm not sure folks will be able to read ebooks 10 or 15 years from now (how much software still runs from 15 years ago?)


What you should ask is how many file formats used 10 or 15 years ago are accessible now. And it's pretty much all of them, isn't it? Heck most people are still using XP and that is 11 years old or thereabouts.
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