a question of ethics for the Genii forum

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby walkinoats » 04/09/02 05:23 AM

Jay Sankey has a presentation where he states at the beginning of the trick to burn in the spectators memory the replacing of a chosen card. He attempts to find the card but fails. He then asks the spectator to hold the indifferent card and then he says he will go back in time to when the card was first selected. When the spectator now looks at the card, it has changed into the selection. I love this presentation but I don't include into my own presentation because it belongs to Jay. Thus forcing me to create a different presentation. Would it be unethical if I combined Jay's back in time presentation to my own presentation.

Thanks,
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 04/09/02 06:47 AM

My personal belief is that if the presentation has been published - whether in a book or on video - you are free to use it. You have bought the book/video, so you are entitled to use what's in/on it.

HOWEVER - I would always recommend that you come up with you own, original scripts. They will fit your personality much better than something that was written for someone else. If you are going to use someone else's presentation at the very least, adapt it to your own personality. This sounds like what you want to do. You're creating your own presentation based on Jay Sankey's idea. I don't see anything wrong with that.

-Jim
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Postby Guest » 04/09/02 08:34 AM

Jay Sankey's presentation is unique to him, but the theme of time travel applied to close up magic can be found in effects by Steve Freeman and Darwin Ortiz for starters. I think it's OK to use the theme as long as you modify the presentation to fit your performing style.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 04/09/02 12:12 PM

Jay's presentation is unique to him but it is very similar to a Roy Walton plot ("Time Travelers" from Cardboard Charades, 1971), which, I think, predates Jay's effect. Paul Cummins has a version of Roy's plot in his FASDIU lecture notes called "The trick that never happened." Jennings did one called "Morlocks Revenge" and Ortiz has "Time and Again" in Cardshark.

I hope this doesn't come across as a criticism of Jay, who is a genius and extremely generous to boot. The point is that the basic idea of traveling backwards in time during a card trick is not new, and you can use it freely.

Of course, you'll probably want to use your own variation of that basic theme, which will then be sufficiently different from Jay's (and everybody elses) to preclude ethical worries, especially if you're just using it for yourself. If you want to publish it, you should probably research the above examples to make sure you haven't recreated any of them.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/09/02 01:32 PM

walkinaots, feel free to use any form of this type of presentation you want. It's been published numerous times: Steve Freeman was, I think, one of the first--and in an issue of Genii from the 1960s, no less.
Jay is simply following in the footsteps of those before him in adapting the plot to his own handling.
I happen to have a STAND-UP handling of "Morlock's Revenge" from Larry Jennings for the third book in the trilogy.
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 04/09/02 02:29 PM

Yes, Steve Freeman DID publish an effect apparently about Time Travel; however, Ed Marlo published a three-part routine in IBIDEM titled "The Time Machine." I think it is in issue #8 (I don't have the pubs near me.)

Speaking of time travel, RK FORCED me to go to The Star Trek Experience...which can cause heart attacks, back injuries, and a host of other mishaps (which RK would not permit me to read on the warning sign); however, it proved to be quite a "trip" and, alas, the old deck in my pocket returned to New Deck order when I left the "experience."

Go figure.

Vegas, BTW, is a lot like Ames, Iowa...
if you are on heavy-duty acid...and haven't slept in a week.

Onward...
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Postby pduffie » 04/09/02 03:07 PM

The Freeman trick in Genii was a minor variation on Roy Walton's "Back into Time."

In a previous time travel trick, "Travellers in Time" (Cardboard Charades), Roy cites Marlo's "Time Machine" (see Jon's post above) as "well worth studying."

Peter
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Postby Guest » 04/09/02 04:14 PM

Speaking of time travel, RK FORCED me to go to The Star Trek Experience...however, it proved to be quite a "trip" and, alas, the old deck in my pocket returned to New Deck order when I left the "experience."

Go figure.

Vegas, BTW, is a lot like Ames, Iowa...
if you are on heavy-duty acid...and haven't slept in a week.

Onward...[/QB]
As always Jon, your descriptions put a smile on my face. Star Trek the experience is a blast. We especially enjoyed sitting in Quark's having drinks and singing drinking songs with Kilingons (who told us to drink hearty, the floor was soft).
Thanks again for the "flashback"!
:D :D
as always,
PSIncerely Yours,
Paul
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Postby Guest » 04/09/02 05:46 PM

May I submit my handling of a “Back in Time” routine? When I first read Roy Walton's routine, I liked the effect – but I wanted a simpler handling. In no way am I claiming it's better than Mr. Walton's. It just suits me better.

1. Separate the reds and blacks and place both halves on the table – blacks face down to the left – reds face up to the right.

2. “Triumph shuffle” the halves letting the last black card fall on top and push together until about an inch is left protruding.

3. Spread the cards so the audience sees face up face down – all the blacks.

4. Roll over once more and square up a la Triumph. The top black card moves to the right over the red face up cards.

5. Strip out and cut the reds with the top black card to the table. Complete the cut by placing the face down blacks on the other half and hold a thumb break between the halves.

6. Cut the lower half of the bottom portion to the top – then the rest of the lower half to the top.

7. Cut some cards from the top and show a red card. Still holding these cards, cut into the lower half and turn to show a black – turn these cards back and forth showing a red facing one way – a black the other way. Which is as it should be.

8. Assemble the deck and pick it up. Turn it over so the top half is all face up blacks. But don't show that.

9. Separate the cards at the natural break and take the lower half in your right hand, but leave the bottom face up black in your left palm. A sort of upside down slip cut.

10. Place both halves on the table and spread, showing once again reds and blacks separate.

It's a simple handling and easy for the audience to follow - but it takes longer to read – and a lot longer for me to write it up.

If I did not make something clear – please ask me to try again.

Thanks for your patience.

BTW, it can also be done with 2 selected cards – then found each one in the half of the opposite color.
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Postby Tom Dobrowolski » 04/10/02 09:15 AM

Thanks for posting this handling Joe. I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and routines.
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Postby pduffie » 04/10/02 10:27 AM

Thanks for posting that Joe. It's a nice handling. BTW - your variation is on "Travellers in Time," not "Back into Time."

I think I'll publish a further variation called "Travelling Back into Time" just to confuse things totally :-)

Regards

Peter
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Postby pduffie » 04/10/02 10:28 AM

Thanks for posting that Joe. It's a nice handling. BTW - your variation is on "Travellers in Time," not "Back into Time."

I think I'll publish a further variation called "Travelling Back into Time" just to confuse things totally :-)

Regards

Peter
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Postby Guest » 04/10/02 11:24 AM

I like the "HYPOTHETICAL POSSIBILITIES" from Gary Kurtz written in "Unexplainable Acts" by R. Kaufman. Really different in presentation and effect to the classic time traveller effect.
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Postby walkinoats » 04/10/02 04:53 PM

Thanks everyone for your replys.
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