Ripped & Fryed - source?

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 06:56 AM

mrgoat wrote:
Jeff Pierce Magic wrote:Yes that was me, it been about 5 years in the making, LOL!

This is the cover of my new book, LMK what you think.

Jeff

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9688063/coveridea.jpg

Jeff


It's not bad for an intern!

Doesn't look like a professional book though. Looks self published.


Wow, not sure if this is a joke or not but it sure is mean. Mr. Goat critisism is always welcome, feel free to actually add some.

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Postby mrgoat » 04/18/12 07:30 AM

Jeff Pierce Magic wrote:Wow, not sure if this is a joke or not but it sure is mean. Mr. Goat critisism is always welcome, feel free to actually add some.

Jeff


Don't ask for criticism if you then moan about it if you don't like it Mr Pierce!

If you want more details:

1) It looks like you did it yourself.

2) You use 3 different fonts, just because you CAN use multiple fonts, doesn't mean you should

3) The illustration (added since last night) is bad, looks like it was taken from something else and had the folded card crudely photoshopped in

4) The additions since last night make no sense. 3 people holding a zippo and one holding a folded card. Why? I know it is meant to be like a big gig, but why would someone hold up a card at a gig?

5) The gradient yellow in the sign make it look like it is just a badly compressed gif.

I hope you didn't pay anyone for it. It's OK for an amateur.

I'll have a think and come up with what I consider better ideas later.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/18/12 08:29 AM

Just to give you some ideas of what good looks like

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

etc
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Postby Steve Bryant » 04/18/12 08:45 AM

The Non-Designer's Design Book by Robin Williams (not the comic) is an excellent book on the subject.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/18/12 09:20 AM

Goat/Damian's expert (and rather rudely conveyed and not particularly constructive) opinion notwithstanding, I still think the cover is quite nice.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/18/12 09:32 AM

Chris Aguilar wrote:Goat/Damian's expert (and rather rudely conveyed and not particularly constructive) opinion notwithstanding, I still think the cover is quite nice.


What do you like about it? Saying it's "nice" isn't very constructive and is banal to the point of useless.

I said, in detail, what I thought made it look cheap and home made, then I linked to some good designs so he knows what experts think.

Your post seems almost worthless.
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 10:05 AM

mrgoat wrote:
Jeff Pierce Magic wrote:Wow, not sure if this is a joke or not but it sure is mean. Mr. Goat critisism is always welcome, feel free to actually add some.

Jeff


Don't ask for criticism if you then moan about it if you don't like it Mr Pierce!

If you want more details:

1) It looks like you did it yourself.

2) You use 3 different fonts, just because you CAN use multiple fonts, doesn't mean you should

3) The illustration (added since last night) is bad, looks like it was taken from something else and had the folded card crudely photoshopped in

4) The additions since last night make no sense. 3 people holding a zippo and one holding a folded card. Why? I know it is meant to be like a big gig, but why would someone hold up a card at a gig?

5) The gradient yellow in the sign make it look like it is just a badly compressed gif.

I hope you didn't pay anyone for it. It's OK for an amateur. Sort of thing I would imagine seeing on a Glenn Bishop lecture note.

I'll have a think and come up with what I consider better ideas later.


Mr. Goat, Richard's comment was that it was not deserving of the classic effect of Cardwarp, that is a useful criticism, why would you think I'd moan about yours. I did ask for criticism and you gave it, so thank you for your comments. I'll will think about your comments and take them for what they are worth. If you don't like it I can respect that, but no need to be an [censored] about it, and I refer to the Glenn Bishop comment in particular.

BTW, while not a professional illustrator for print this is not my first book, DVD or film. I am a professional in the TV industry and have been for 30 years. I spent 20 years working for FOX and one of my duties among other things was as a graphic designer creating image packages for stations.

I'm curious as to what your background is. Picking out book covers on the internet isn't exactly my idea of better ideas, although I do like the last cover.

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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 10:06 AM

Steve and Edward, thank you for your comments, that were constructive.
Edward I really enjoyed that link to TED, very informative.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/18/12 10:23 AM

mrgoat wrote:
Chris Aguilar wrote:Goat/Damian's expert (and rather rudely conveyed and not particularly constructive) opinion notwithstanding, I still think the cover is quite nice.


What do you like about it? Saying it's "nice" isn't very constructive and is banal to the point of useless.

Your "expert" opinion doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the cover design. It's tough to take your "constructive" criticism seriously when you insist upon imparting it in the most unnecessarily rude fashion (A Glenn Bishop comparison? Really?)

I wasn't aware that simply opining that I like something required justification of that opinion to the satisfaction of Damian (Goat) Jennings.

I said, in detail, what I thought made it look cheap and home made, then I linked to some good designs so he knows what experts think.

I think that most of the designs you linked to are pretty ugly. I certainly hope that Jeff doesn't go in that direction.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/18/12 11:26 AM

Taking a cue from the TED talk and the Michael Crichton story- how about sending covers to Roy Walton till you get that kind of response?

What's the effect?
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 11:36 AM

Roy loves the cover.

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/18/12 11:55 AM

There you go- it speaks to the "author" of the effect so maybe it's right for the readership as well.
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 01:04 PM

Jonathan I don't know about you but I don't buy a book solely for its cover, but for what's inside. Magic book covers have been historically on the boring side.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/18/12 02:30 PM

Unlike in the real world, the cover of a magic book is not related to sales. In the real world, a good book cover will help sell the book, while a poor book cover will hinder sales.

In our world, magicians don't give a crap, as evidenced by the lousy covers on so many books over the past 100 years.

Jeff asked for opinions, and he got them. I don't like the cover; Goat doesn't like the cover. I deleted Goat's Glenn Bishop comment because it needlessly weakened his argument. His comments are valid, no matter how offensively he sometimes makes them.

I think a dark photo of people holding up lighters at a sporting event is a complete non-sequitor for a book about Card Warp. The trick is a magical and intellectual exercise, not a sporting event or game.

The book covers that Goat has displayed here are all prime examples of commercial graphic design and put the covers of most magic books to shame.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/18/12 02:30 PM

? you asked about your cover. I followed up on the theme from the TED talk.

Funny us having this chat here seeing as how we've been discussing items inside that book off and on almost since you announced the project. If the refolding swindle is already in the book - great - if not I'll get it working on its own schedule and try it out when circumstances permit.

Looking forward to enjoying your book when it comes out

J
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Postby El Mystico » 04/18/12 02:42 PM

mrgoat -

Wwhy would someone replace their head with a tyre? It makes no sense.
Why would someone pour a drink upside down, so the water flowed away from the glass? It makes no sense.
why would someone replace their eyes with a cog? It makes no sense.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/18/12 03:00 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I think a dark photo of people holding up lighters at a sporting event is a complete non-sequitor for a book about Card Warp. The trick is a magical and intellectual exercise, not a sporting event or game.

I can't imagine that anyone with an interest in this book wouldn't understand the cover. The cover fits neatly with the name of the book (i.e. "Tour") while clearly indicating the contents (i.e. "Card Warp".)

I prefer Jeff's cover to most of the samples that Damian (Goat) Jennings posted.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/18/12 03:02 PM

One: Art doesn't have to make sense.

Two: I have an interest in the book and the cover has no meaning to me.
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 03:05 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Unlike in the real world, the cover of a magic book is not related to sales. In the real world, a good book cover will help sell the book, while a poor book cover will hinder sales.

In our world, magicians don't give a crap, as evidenced by the lousy covers on so many books over the past 100 years.

Jeff asked for opinions, and he got them. I don't like the cover; Goat doesn't like the cover. I deleted Goat's Glenn Bishop comment because it needlessly weakened his argument. His comments are valid, no matter how offensively he sometimes makes them.

I think a dark photo of people holding up lighters at a sporting event is a complete non-sequitor for a book about Card Warp. The trick is a magical and intellectual exercise, not a sporting event or game.

The book covers that Goat has displayed here are all prime examples of commercial graphic design and put the covers of most magic books to shame.


Richard I'm not the least bit upset over his comments, except the Bishop one. Everyone has their opinions. I guess I sometimes forget that we are magicians and for the most part we are just un-hip.

Let me explain to those who don't get it about the cover. First off it's an image from a rock concert, not a sporting event. To be more precise it's a take off on Van's Warped Tour, which is a music festival those youngsters like to go to. So, a non-sequitor, I don't agree at all, but maybe I'm just more hip than some,LOL! I and many others like it and think it's an imaginative idea for a cover. While the image is not 100% finished, I think the buying public will get it. It's supposed to look like it has a comic or graphic novel look to it.
I thank everyone for their comments, including Richard and Mr. Goat but that does not mean you are right.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/18/12 03:07 PM

There is no right or wrong where art is concerned.
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 03:08 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:? you asked about your cover. I followed up on the theme from the TED talk.

Funny us having this chat here seeing as how we've been discussing items inside that book off and on almost since you announced the project. If the refolding swindle is already in the book - great - if not I'll get it working on its own schedule and try it out when circumstances permit.

Looking forward to enjoying your book when it comes out

J


Jonathan email me direct as i have no idea what you are talking about, LOL!

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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 03:09 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:There is no right or wrong where art is concerned.


But if you don't like it it must be wrong in your eyes.

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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/18/12 03:16 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:One: Art doesn't have to make sense.

Two: I have an interest in the book and the cover has no meaning to me.

Is it important that the cover has some special meaning to you? Is having "Card Warp" in the title not explanatory enough?

If I used your criteria (i.e. the cover must have meaning to me), I'd probably have to discard half the books on my shelf. What's the deep meaning of (for instance) of Sankey Pankey (a very good book)? I'm a fan of your work and have many of Kaufman penned books on my shelf, but I can't say that I get any special meaning or "classiness" from each and every single one of them. And that's OK with me, because the material is generally excellent.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/18/12 03:24 PM

The cover of Sankey Pankey has no meaning at all. It's abstract, created with a Colorforms set put out by the Museum of Modern Art in New York. Often my covers were prepared at the last minute when the rest of the book was done and I was rushing to go to press.

When I say that the cover of the Card Warp book has no meaning to me, I say that in the sense that it is obviously not a piece of art, but a selling point, and since I don't go to sporting events or concerts, I have no point of reference for a bunch of people holding cigarette lighters in the air. And that doesn't seem to have any connection to a book about Card Warp from my point of view.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/18/12 03:39 PM

I get what you're saying Richard, but I'm pretty confident that having the word "Cardwarp" so prominently in the title, would quite clearly convey a pretty strong idea of the contents to potential buyers of this book even if they didn't get the added subtext ("tour").

As someone with a lot of experience publishing, I'm interested in how you would have marketed this book. For instance, what constitutes a "classy" title? I really like the punny/clever title "Secrets Draun from the Underground" and wonder how Jeff's title "The Card Warp Tour" is any less clear than that.

What kind of cover/title is "correct" for a book like this?

Image
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Postby Edward Pungot » 04/18/12 03:42 PM

[img:left]http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/_images/ISBNCovers/Covers_Enlarged/9780316074230_388X586.jpg[/img]

I saw this book a while back and it caught my eye because of the interesting use of the playing card. Just throwing it out there. The image below is a close-up of the playing card used.


[img:left]http://media.avclub.com/images/articles/article/54901/PALE-KING_M_jpg_627x325_crop_upscale_q85.jpg[/img]
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/18/12 03:44 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote: I deleted Goat's Glenn Bishop comment because it needlessly weakened his argument. His comments are valid, no matter how offensively he sometimes makes them.


It was just another sad attempt at the goat trying to be funny and amusing at someone elses expense. (My Opinion).

Jeff Pierce Magic wrote:
I thank everyone for their comments, including Richard and Mr. Goat but that does not mean you are right.

Jeff Pierce


Good luck on your book Jeff here is my opinion - take advice or not - however make and package your book the way you want and in the way that your skills, resources (funds) can get the job done. I feel that in magic if there is good stuff in it - I think word will get around and I hope your venture brings you success!

I have always thought that there are two kinds of book publishing in magic - books for collectors and books for "workers"...

Good luck.
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 04/18/12 03:47 PM

Thank you Glenn, good advise, I think I'll take it if it's alright with Mr. Goat. My last book was for collectors so I think I'll go the other way this time.

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Postby Ross Welford » 04/18/12 05:59 PM

In case anyone was wondering ("unhip" me included) this is what Jeff's cover is referencing:

http://vanswarpedtouruk.com/
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Postby luigimar » 04/18/12 06:22 PM

Remember the old saying: don't judge a book by its cover...
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Postby Doc Dixon » 04/18/12 07:45 PM

Re: commercially challenged magic book covers, let alone magic book titles ...

[img:center]http://www.dixonmagic.com/page2/files/-everything_is_funnier_with_monkeys_cover.jpg[/img]
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Postby Jeff Haas » 04/19/12 01:50 AM

Just thinking out loud...but for the cover of a book on Card Warp, I would've played on the nature of the effect, and come up with something that recalled old science fiction books. The ones with a sparse, modernistic feel. The card going through a portal in space or something similar.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/19/12 10:15 AM

Chris Aguilar wrote:Your "expert" opinion doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the cover design.


I'm really "pleased" about that.

Chris Aguilar wrote: It's tough to take your "constructive" criticism seriously when you insist upon imparting it in the most unnecessarily rude fashion


Ignore it then. It's not written for you, nor does it concern you in "any" way at all.

Chris Aguilar wrote:I wasn't aware that simply opining that I like something required justification of that opinion to the satisfaction of Damian (Goat) Jennings.


Who said it does? Just that "nice" is such an pointless word, and to preface it with "quite" seems like you are damning it with faint praise.

Chris Aguilar wrote:I think that most of the designs you linked to are pretty ugly.

I would would "defend" to the death your right to think those classic covers are ugly.

Art is subjective after all.

Chris Aguilar wrote: I certainly hope that Jeff doesn't go in that direction.


"Good."
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/19/12 10:41 AM

Ah, the expected (and tiresome) "point by point" snark dump from Damian (Goat) Jennings.

I'm in no way "damning with faint praise" Jeff's efforts. I enjoy the cover, find it esthetically pleasing, etc without reservation. Hope that clears it up for you.

By the way, you misquote me in your last post. I never said

I would would "defend" to the death your right to think those classic covers are ugly.

Art is subjective after all.


I'm guessing that in your haste to be "right on the internet" via the "point by bloody point" method, you likely had an internet posting failure.


@ Jeff Pierce

Good work on the cover, and I expect the contents will be of the same high quality. I look forward to the finished product.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/19/12 10:45 AM

Anyone want to discuss the contents of that TED talk as it applies to Jeff's book cover?

The card warp plot may have some practical life left even with the extensive online exposure of the basic method... maybe starting with business cards and an out to lunch boost to get the trick started.

The Britland/Frye restore is impressive. Kudos to all involved in getting that item the recognition it deserves.

Okay, gonna ask - has anyone found the item workable and worth performing using a borrowed dollar bill?
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/19/12 11:20 AM

Oh, and Damian/Goat, one more thing.

I'm sure there will be some snide reply to my last post (as you obviously cannot help yourself.)

Please be aware that I won't be able to enjoy your doubtless witty rejoinder as I've added you to my forums "ignore list".


I never felt the need for that in the past as (not unlike the blind squirrel who occasionally finds a nut) you sometimes had something interesting to say. These days all I'm seeing is snark, nastiness, and point by point post bombing of any subjective opinion contrary to your own.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/19/12 11:25 AM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Anyone want to discuss the contents of that TED talk as it applies to Jeff's book cover?

The card warp plot may have some practical life left even with the extensive online exposure of the basic method... maybe starting with business cards and an out to lunch boost to get the trick started.

The Britland/Frye restore is impressive. Kudos to all involved in getting that item the recognition it deserves.

Okay, gonna ask - has anyone found the item workable and worth performing using a borrowed dollar bill?



Jon,

Wouldn't you agree that using something like Cervon's off center tear (which leads to the card ending up in three pieces) might mitigate some of the online exposure of the basic method?

And in terms of a "borrowed bill", since the bill isn't gaffed at all, why wouldn't it be workable that way?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/19/12 11:42 AM

IMHO the slight improvements to be had using a flap card gaff or simply moving the tear a few millimeters are not going to throw off an informed lay audience. They think they know what's there inside the tunnel card and they are right, even if not exactly on center or simply.

have you tried the Brtland/Frye torn and restored item using a borrowed bill? IE you tear and restore their bill using a bill of your own as the tunnel/cover.

Since playing with Giles's Contortionist...since this is public I'll leave it at being a more robust approach with more dramatic options available that is consistent with your line of thinking about the Cervon alteration of the method to be more deceptive ;)
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 04/19/12 11:50 AM

Hey Jon,

One other plus in the Cervon column is the additional conviction one receives by the way his routine allows the bill to be opened at various times showing that the card truly is (along the whole length) turned inside out. You just don't get that with versions that use only two cards.
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