Strike Second Deal

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/13/12 08:25 AM

I was practicing my Strike Second Deal and read on a forum that professional cheaters use a brief of 1/64 of an inch (roughly 0.3 mm). I was wondering if it is possible, I have a brief of about half the white border or a little bit more, I have studied the move for just a month, that's why. But what do you think? Oh, I use a small brief just if I have to do fake Center Deals, otherwise I just use the brief of a normal deal and lift the thumb. If you have tips too they are very welcome.
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/13/12 08:55 AM

If you were given knowlege of what works in real cheating ... would you write in public?
Mundus vult decipi
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6784
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Bob Cunningham » 04/13/12 08:57 AM

It's not so much about the brief as it is about the rhythm!

I really like Ian Kendall's teaching on this, you should check it out: http://virtualmagicshow.com/blog/?p=718
User avatar
Bob Cunningham
 
Posts: 339
Joined: 05/25/08 04:11 PM
Location: Texas

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/13/12 08:58 AM

He said I could state that on a public forum and he already talked about that on another public forum, so everything should be fine.
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/13/12 08:59 AM

I completely agree. I just wanted to know if it was possible to do what I stated.
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby Bob Cunningham » 04/13/12 11:07 AM

AlessandroPangia wrote:I completely agree. I just wanted to know if it was possible


Not by me :-)
User avatar
Bob Cunningham
 
Posts: 339
Joined: 05/25/08 04:11 PM
Location: Texas

Postby erdnasephile » 04/13/12 02:38 PM

Jason England writes that with a warmup, he can deal seconds with a brief of about a millimeter "90% of the time". (Second Thoughts, 2006)

You're talking about a third of the size of that breach.

Perhaps somebody out there can do it, but I wonder if they could really do it under fire.
User avatar
erdnasephile
 
Posts: 2167
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM

Postby Pete McCabe » 04/13/12 03:47 PM

Martin Nash could deal seconds with an amazingly small brief. I never got out the calipers, but it was a small fraction of the white border.
Pete McCabe
 
Posts: 2085
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Postby Ian Kendall » 04/13/12 03:51 PM

Since my name was brought up, I'll offer something.

I deal with a mah-hoosive brief. I feel that, for magic purposes anyway, as with the pass or the top change, if you are placing that much attention onto the deck during an innocuous act of dealing cards, then you are doing something wrong.

For demonstration purposes I can see the desire to have a micro brief, but I have found that lay people are just as impressed with a smooth and rhythmic deal, providing certain other precautions are taken.
Ian Kendall
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Edinburgh

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/13/12 04:17 PM

Ian, I totally agree with you, I believe that for most applications in magic a half an inch brief is excellent if it has correct rhythm.

Martin Nash had a very small brief, but we are still talking about 1-2mm. He was very proficient even with a very tiny brief. I got useful tips from his videos.

Jason England is also very good at the move, but that brief seems too small for me. There is a video of Yiannis where he demonstrates a pure Walter Scott Second Deal: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IsdfXb0Aq4)
It seems very very small, maybe what I am looking for.
And Jean-Jacques Sanvert:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QogtLNt ... apOChZM%3D) minute 2:00, where he has the Tally Ho Circle Back Blue.



I am still not fully convinced about the truth about real cheats using it, because I don't think it will be 100% reliable, but it came from one of them...
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby Gary Plants » 04/13/12 04:36 PM

Dai Vernon stated that the small brief was a rumor that was started by gamblers. They didn't want the second deal to become common, so by saying that you had to use the extremely small brief, most people gave up because of the difficulty level of dealing the small brief. Just too much practice for most people.
Timing and rhythm are the real secrets.
Gary Plants
 
Posts: 378
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Texas

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/13/12 04:45 PM

"The greatest lie that was ever started by gamblers is the fact that the Strike Deal must be done with a narrowest possible margin". If my memory serves me right it should be an approximate quote. That's absolutely true, but for some instances you need to have it small, but normally I use almost half an inch and lift my thumb, that's a point that is missed, I believe that to be fully deceptive lifting the thumb is a good addition.

P.S. Mr.Plants,you've got a PM.
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby erdnasephile » 04/13/12 04:53 PM

Jack Carpenter has some relevant thoughts on this on his Seattle Sessions DVD's
User avatar
erdnasephile
 
Posts: 2167
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/13/12 05:10 PM

erdnasephile wrote:Jack Carpenter has some relevant thoughts on this on his Seattle Sessions DVD's


It is on by "To Buy" list. Without revealing too much, does he go over the brief and rhythm?
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby erdnasephile » 04/13/12 05:38 PM

Yes, he does--it's on Volume 2. Be advised that Mr. Carpenter is of the school that the size of the brief really doesn't matter--so if you are looking for ways to decrease the breach size, he's not your guy. However, I find his tips extremely helpful--he dashes several myths. (I do wish Brooks, et al had used at couple more cameras during this shoot).

(FWIW, the best second deal I've ever seen demonstrated is Steve Forte's on his Gambling Protection Series DVD's. The brief he uses in that set appears to be larger than 1 mm (looking in Slo-Mo), yet at real speed it is completely invisible. It's amazing someone can deal so deceptively so fast.)
User avatar
erdnasephile
 
Posts: 2167
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM

Postby Eric Fry » 04/13/12 06:48 PM

Wouldn't the brief depend on what honest deal you are imitating?

If the honest deal is to draw off the top card with your right thumb without first pushing the card to the right with your left thumb, I'd think you'd want a tiny brief.

But if the honest deal is to push the top card to the right at an angle before taking it with the right hand, then you don't need to hide that fact, in which case you have a ready-made large brief.

Isn't there some history about this deal that relates to the fact that it was originally intended to make sure the dealer wasn't able to glimpse the second card from the top? Then, after a time, didn't it morph into something very similar to the usual deal of pushing a card to the right before taking it with the right hand?
Eric Fry
 
Posts: 110
Joined: 03/17/08 08:45 PM

Postby Chas Nigh » 04/13/12 07:34 PM

Jack McMillen had the finest 2 I've ever seen. Also the finest brief. It didn't look possible with that tiny brief.
User avatar
Chas Nigh
 
Posts: 116
Joined: 03/24/08 10:45 PM
Location: California

Postby Leonard Hevia » 04/13/12 08:20 PM

One of the best descriptions of the Strike Second is found on page 47 of Arthur Buckley's Card Control.

Andy Greget of Arizona has a number of reasonably priced early hardcover editions of this text if anyone is interested.
Leonard Hevia
 
Posts: 932
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Gaithersburg, Md.

Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/14/12 02:41 AM

Gene Maze learned the Second Deal out of Buckley's Card Control and he did it to perfection.

The real secret to the timing of the second deal is Charlie Miller's and appears in Expert Card Technique.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 21050
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/15/12 03:12 AM

Yes, I've seen a video of him doing it and was basically flawless, it looks like the top card never moves, but it moves. I've realized that timing is crucial.
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby AlessandroPangia » 04/23/12 10:52 AM

On a quick note, I got my hands on Walter Scott's tecnique and I must say it does help making the brief smaller. I have a question for you: do you think lifting the thumb is an element that can be added?
AlessandroPangia
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 02/08/12 06:02 AM
Location: Italy

Postby Welles » 06/13/12 08:56 PM

If you want to promote a tiny brief that is your prerogative.
But don't use Jack's name to do it. I knew him for a decade and was privy to all his methods. He never in his life used a small brief and took great pride in the fact. And yes he was very good indeed.
Welles
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 03/08/12 04:05 PM

Postby Jason England » 06/13/12 11:19 PM

I'm careful to stress in my Second Thoughts notes that my microscopic brief second deal is a "show-off" move only for other magicians who enjoy seeing work that fine. I used to love to sit and watch Martin Nash deal seconds that were that impressive (from a brief-size point of view), so why not do the same for the guys watching me?

But, I can tell you that I don't consider those ultra-fine seconds to be the most visually deceptive by a long shot. They're the most "impossible" looking from the standpoint of another deuce dealer, but you can tell I'm doing them from across the room if you know what to look for.

The most deceptive seconds combine timing, rhythm, wrist and hand movement, body-language and a reasonable, but not microscopic brief.

This is true regardless of whether the situation is a card game or a magic effect, although some points may be more or less important depending on the venue.

Jason
Jason England
 
Posts: 248
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/14/12 01:29 AM

Charlie Miller taught me his Second Deal. Not a tiny brief--he wasn't concerned about that because if the timing was right, the brief was never seen.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 21050
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Gary Plants » 06/14/12 01:36 AM

This would be a nice item for Magicana..... :grin: :grin:
Gary Plants
 
Posts: 378
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Texas

Postby Thomas Van Aken » 06/14/12 04:01 AM

Harry Riser describes (one of) Charlie Miller second deal in his second book; it is a strike method from a four fingers grip. Harry mentions that Charlie agreed on the fact that a very small brief does not really add to the deceptiveness but that when working for magician's, he choosed for a small brief.

Thomas
Thomas Van Aken
 
Posts: 94
Joined: 03/13/08 10:41 AM
Location: Brussels, Belgium


Return to Close-Up Magic