Three Fly?

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Michael Edwards » 06/06/04 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
The Genii issue with Scottish Fly is the one with Ricky Dunn on the cover. Can't remember the year, though.
That would have been Genii, Volume 62, Number 7, July 15, 1999, pages 44-48
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Postby Guest » 06/24/04 04:27 PM

Why no gimmicks? Can you explain your need to look beyond the routines you are already familiar with?
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Postby Guest » 06/24/04 09:06 PM

Having played with several versions including Bob Kohler's U3F, I actually have come to prefer the no-gimmick visual coins across. I've been using a slight variation on Curtis Kam's routine (in the Deceptions in Paradise video). I think the main reason I've settled on it is that it's got a nice pace to it and I like the little joke to get the 2nd coin across. Guess it's just a matter of personal taste.

-- Frank
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Postby Guest » 06/25/04 02:07 PM

Dan Watkins...

THANK YOU for contributing the awesome bibliography. YOURE THE MAN!
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Postby SIX » 06/28/04 12:44 PM

I have finally setteled on one three fly Paul Wilson crowded coins.I also started doing three fly does any one know a good source to learn how to turn three silver coins into three chinese coinse without a table?
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Postby SIX » 06/28/04 12:45 PM

I have finally setteled on one three fly Paul Wilson crowded coins.I also started doing Chinese charming challenge does any one know a good source to learn how to turn three silver coins into three chinese coinse without a table?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/28/04 02:42 PM

Have you considered doing the 'fly' onto the ribbon ... ie using the chinese coins?
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Postby Guest » 06/29/04 07:57 AM

does any one know a good source to learn how to turn three silver coins into three chinese coinse without a table?
Check out Gary Kurtz' Creating Magic Video...

In addition to a wonderful "VCA" routine, you'll find a few methods for the (chinese coin) transformation and some other wonderful 3 coin moments (his glitter finale is beautiful.)

His "Full Frontal Assualt" manuscript also has some 'work' on the subject.
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Postby Pepka » 06/29/04 02:00 PM

I'm not sure of the name of routine, or magician, but there was a version in Genii a few years ago utilizing the muscle-pass. Jet coins something? This looked and read incredible. RK can probably shed some light on this.
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 06/29/04 03:41 PM

Originally posted by pepka:
I'm not sure of the name of routine, or magician, but there was a version in Genii a few years ago utilizing the muscle-pass. Jet coins something? This looked and read incredible. RK can probably shed some light on this.
Pepka
Jet Coins is correct, I believe, but from what I remember it wasn't a visual coins across, but rather a standard one with the hands closed.

-Jim
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/29/04 06:24 PM

Is the Jet the thing from 5x5 japan where a coin goes FLYING from hand to hand? If so, It's a utility move and came here before my VCA stuff got popular.

I'm starting to like the idea of doing the 'Fly' onto the ribbon. If I had a way to make the knots appear around the coins... might try the trick.
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Postby Raj Madhok » 06/29/04 08:26 PM

Rumor has it that Akira Fuji's "Jet Coins" as published in Genii was originally titled, "Coins Akiras". Say it with me out loud...

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Postby Guest » 07/01/04 08:47 AM

I often use Reed McClintock's version called "Scream Fly" from his DVD "Coin Ovations"...Although the original routine used gaffs, i just use an extra coin and sleeve it at the end...
Also check out Kainoa's trick mentioned above, this is brilliant but will take a long time to learn. From my experience this is the most technically demanding Three Fly routine i have used...This is partly because no gaffs are used and the coin only ever goes into edge grip. The book it is in "Coin On Edge" is really worth the money.
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Postby John Bodine » 07/01/04 09:39 AM

Keep in mind that Kenner's handling of Townsend's effect was never meant to be a standalone piece. Although most people now perform 3Fly (and its variations) as a single effect, it works much better in the course of a full routine. I have put together a larger routine that involves the production, some backfire/whiplash elements, 3 fly, and a vanish to impossible location as a full routine which plays at about 4 minutes (I think).

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Postby Steve Mills » 07/13/04 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Find a copy of Chris Kenner's book Out of Control.
Believe me - MUCH easier said than done.

I'll keep looking, though. I'm told it's worth the hunt.

Steve
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Postby Guest » 07/13/04 07:09 PM

You can also check with Dan Garret and see if he still sells the Kenner 3 fly manuscript.

Mike
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/13/04 10:04 PM

Dan Garrett had some of the Kenner booklets on his dealer table at the IBM convention recently.
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Postby Frank Starsinic » 07/14/04 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Steve Mills:
Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
[b] Find a copy of Chris Kenner's book Out of Control.
Believe me - MUCH easier said than done.

I'll keep looking, though. I'm told it's worth the hunt.

Steve [/b]
I got mine right off ebay for cheap. Something like $25 just last year. Maybe I lucked out. I got the kurtz book right about the same time for about the same price.

I'm going over to the bookshelf right now just to smell them.

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/14/04 04:58 AM

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
...I'm going over to the bookshelf right now just to smell them...
A properly annotated version of TOOC, where the material is properly credited and the sources and inventors cited might be interesting.

As it stands, the book can probably be found on the shelf by smell.

On the visual side, the book is quite impressive. Kudos to the design team.
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Postby Guest » 07/14/04 01:13 PM

IMO: TOOC has PLENTY of credits... plenty.
Most of the routines open with prefatory comments crediting inspirations. There's many credits throughout each effect (regarding sleights, etc.) and at the end of many effects, there are more credits. By 'reasonable' standards, I think he did a good job (a great job, considering the 'tone' of this book.)

Alas; whether or not these routines should have seen print is another story ('the never-ending story' apparently.)

As it stands, the book can probably be found on the shelf by smell.
Ouch.

Joking/Jabs aside, my copy probably could be located by smell... it's one of the most well worn books on my shelf. Over the last decade, I've consistently (& professionally) performed eleven routines from TOOC (by my standards, that's an amazing amount of useable material.)

2 cents spent.

Getting back to topic (kinda/sorta) If anyone wants to see the hottest version of "V.C.A" extant head over to www.sleightgeek.com and check out Spoontang's submission in the 3 Fly contest:

Andy Gordon (Spoontang) doing his 3 coin stuff on <a href="http://http://http://www.sleightgeek.com " target="_blank">www.sleightgeek.com</a>
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/14/04 02:12 PM

Originally posted by D. Conn:
IMO: TOOC has PLENTY of credits
Please find the credit for Geoff Latta's move 'French Pop' therein.

The history on that packet switch and the cannibal cards routine itself is a bit lacking as well.

Good thing we have folks like JonR and Wesley James around to catch some of these things...

We can discuss why such things are published another time.

I will look at the latest offering on the VCA. Who knows, this one might look more magical than clever. Heres hoping for the best... opening new browser window. :cool: Thanks for the link.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/14/04 04:55 PM

I don't know about any missing credit for a Latta move in Out of Control, but we did screw things up royally by missing the credit in Sybil to Troy Hooser (and this was my fault as much as Chris's).
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Postby Guest » 07/15/04 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Originally posted by D. Conn:
[b] IMO: TOOC has PLENTY of credits
[...]
I will look at the latest offering on the VCA. Who knows, this one might look more magical than clever. [...][/b]
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so - regarding revisionist history - here's mine...

I think the ongoing (to the point of annoyance) effort to name/rename "3Fly" as "V.C.A. may be a little off track. Jonathan, it's my understanding - from those who long ago witnessed your original routine first hand - that your VCA used open palms and back clips and other various things that make it VERY different from Kenner's hands-up coins-at-fingertips "3Fly" - and most of the ensuing offspring (naturally, since your original VCA is not yet published I must rely on the opinions of early eye-witnesses for my information).

Of course if my understanding in this matter is correct, then perhaps it would be more accurate to create yet ANOTHER name for 3Fly (et al), such as F.C.A. (Fingertip Coins Across). Reasonably, any offspring of your VCA that actually resemble that original routine could fall under the "VCA" moniker.

As for "FCA" (and its descendents) we could just call it "3Fly", which I think is probably the most sensible thing to do.

Regards,
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/15/04 04:46 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Wayne:
Everyone is entitled to a... revisionist history - here's mine...
I'm sure everyone has both a perspective on history and some ability to delete, distort and generalize from their perceptions to suit their interests.

Curtis Kam suggested the term VCA for the generic effect. This way, variations of Three Fly and some open handed coins across routines have a subcategory of coins across for further exploration.

As it happens, the first coin transit in my routine looks like what Chris published. Which is understandable as I showed him both the trick and its mechanics. The one handed vanish at the end of the trick also has its origins there. I use a sleight of my own development and not the Geoff Latta move, which IMHO is more appropriate to 'hanging a coin on a skyhook' which is how he showed it to me in '77.

History aside, and moving ahead into the present... the videos posted on the site show folks are working on the VCA in one form or another. So far, the Kurtz presentation from his 'Misty...' is the best I've heard about. I hold the opinion that presentation is fundamental and more important than specific sleights in a performance.

Going back to Six's question. The original trick, and the Kenner version as published do not use any gaffs. Chris wrote up his version of the trick (minus the mechanics for the last vanish) in his magazine Magic Man Examiner and the book Totally Out Of Control under the title Menage et Trois. I'm told there are several more non-gaffed routines available, including work by Daryl Martinez, Reed McClintock and R. Paul Wilson.
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Postby Guest » 07/15/04 08:09 AM

The history on that packet switch and the cannibal cards routine itself is a bit lacking as well.
If you're speaking of "for 4 for" Kenner dates the switch back to Charles Jordan (is there a problem there?)

Regarding Cannibals... The last paragraph of that description states; "The original Cannibal Cards was devised by Lin Searles in the 1950's and the "eights" comes to us courtesy of Don England."

If there's something wrong with those credits, please enlighten me.

Granted the Latta ("french pop") move isn't mentioned...

Speaking of which: I disagree with your skyhook statement. I think the vanish works great with the tossing action. The extra "space" makes the vanish more effective as does using it in a transition context.
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Postby Guest » 07/15/04 11:37 AM

1) Picky Picky...

I stand by my original statement on this:

By 'reasonable'standards, I think he did a good job (a great job, considering the 'tone' of this book.)

2)I was agreeing with you... While I appreciate the clever repartee (& with all due respect to Latta) there's no need to bring this up everytime someone discusses "3 Fly."

3) To date, when performed by others it pretty much looks like a cramped hand moving oddly and suddenly into an awkward position. Again... my perception.

3) Theoretically, that's true... alas... A magician's perception is the lowest denomiator of what 'counts.' To make this vanish work (or any palming/tossing vanish for that matter) If you simply follow the tossing motion with your eyes... you'll naturally lead the spex away from the guilty hand (at least that's what those-thar misdirection books say.) Regardless, it's certainly no worse than drawing attention to the move in the one foot radius of a "Skyhook" effect.)

Note: I think there's (plenty of) room for an improved vanish for the last coin. Kenner apparently has a good solution & the formentioned Andy Gordon (Spoontang) clip (on sleightgeek.com) also has a nice final vanish (an oldie, but a goodie.)

On more postitive note:
Has anyone here seen the forementioned Spoontang/Gordon clip? If not... you should... it's one of the best net-clips... ever.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/15/04 12:17 PM

I also liked the gag clip someone posted where they do the trick with their fingers.
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Postby Bill Duncan » 07/15/04 10:57 PM

It will be very interesting to see what people think when they see the original handling in print.
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Postby Steve Vaught » 07/31/04 08:30 PM

I am enjoying reading this thread, so I have a question. The only "3fly" that I know is what I learned off of Greg Wilson's video "On The Spot". I perform this at the restaurant and it works well. All of the other references, are those better?...and in what way? The routine that I am currently doing doesn't have angle problems, no gimmicks, instant reset, seems very visual and direct. Are there advantages to some of the other routines...like Chris,Paul, or Troy's routines?

Steve V (the other one)
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Postby Adam Brooks » 08/01/04 09:16 AM

The only "3fly" that I know is what I learned off of Greg Wilson's video "On The Spot". I perform this at the restaurant and it works well.
I think the routine you are refering to is 3/4 Across. This is not a 3-fly routine per se, more of your standard, "closed-fist" coins across. An excellent one, no doubt, though I personally prefer Sankey's Mr. Clean Coins Across. The two routines are markedly similar, but I think Sankey's touches make it better.

Refer to Dan Watkin's post earlier in the thread for the major published handling of 3-fly.
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Postby Brian Marks » 08/02/04 06:20 PM

The Wilson Routine is based on the Sankey routine and is not 3 fly.

Jonathon's routine is the real deal.
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Postby Guest » 08/03/04 03:10 PM

How hard would it be for each and everyone of us to ask Jonathan Townsend for permission to perform his visual coins across, in any variation, and if we receieved the answer no, not perform it. Perform something of our own? Would that be so terrible? And what if he'd said yes?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/01/04 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Mithrandir:
How hard ...to ask ...for permission ??
To do so could spoil the delusion of that one can steal fire from the gods...that one has some divine right to take what one will and do as one pleases. In short, to believe oneself creative while acting like the mice and roaches one calls vermin.

Not a good thing to take what was shown in secret and publish from faulty memory. It is most unseemly to be inspired by unpublished works, and to publish upon those works. A foundation built upon sand. Our community deserves better, even if some of its members deserve much worse.

Till we choose to think better of themselves as people, and from that self respect find the ability to honor others with our actions, there will be values issues to discuss.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/01/04 02:34 PM

Don't you think the premise of coins going from one hand to the other is older than the soil we walk on? Whether you hold the coins up, down, sideways, or? makes much difference in the eyes of the audience?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/01/04 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Don't you think the premise of coins going from one hand to the other is older than the soil we walk on? Whether you hold the coins up, down, sideways, or? makes much difference in the eyes of the audience?
Okay Pete, let's take that road for a few steps, and follow that premise to where it leads.

Since our notion of numbers is also thousands of years old, and according to our commonly held notion, numbers are ideals anyway, even the ones 10-16 digits long... someone who believes as Pete suggests won't mind if folks use their credit card numbers, their bank account number, their bank's routing number, their phone number for whatever purposes themselves, and sell the information....so others can enjoy variations?

Don't you all feel just like Pete suggests and want to offer your numbers to whomever wants, so they can do as they please? After all, they are just numbers and numbers are as old as the hills.

I for one do not. And I suggest that the argument Pete offered was specious at best. However, if Pete wishes to make good his premise... he can offer his numbers and we can proceed to test his argument that they are not so personal or important.

There are a few things I detest more than vermin. One is sophistry.
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Postby Bill Hallahan » 09/01/04 04:06 PM

The coins being visible and at the fingertips does take the effect of Coins Across to an entirely new level. Surely we all agree with that. And I have seen Jonathan Townsend credited with that idea in print.

Magicians often hide effects with the hands, handkerchiefs, and boxes, usually because they have to. Seeing a magical effect happen right in front of your eyes is qualitatively more amazing than a hidden effect.

This was an original idea.
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Postby Pepka » 09/06/04 06:28 PM

This is definatly not my area of expertise, but I just love to chime in. I have 2 coin routines in my regular repitoire, and 3fly is definatly not one of them. I don't really know one handling from the other. But one of the highlights of MAGIC live 2 weeks ago was at the ending party witnessing Chris Kenner perform a (the original?) version. It was one of the most magical things I've ever seen. Maybe because I'm not that familar with the trick, though I have seen it before. Or it may be that this is one of those tricks that Al Baker was speaking of when he said most tricks are killed by improvements.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/06/04 07:10 PM

I'm glad you liked the trick.

I'm told Chris does a good job performing it.

It may see print soon.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/06/04 08:48 PM

specious sophistry

Not being a "learned" person, how about a definition of the above words. :confused:
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/07/04 04:18 AM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
specious sophistry

Not being a "learned" person, how about a definition of the above words. :confused:
Not being a plagiarist nor desiring to take credit for another's work, I will instead provide you with citations to the material you requested:

For "specious" : http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/specious

For "sophistry": http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/sophistry

A good dictionary has its place on the shelf with Greater Magic, Modern Coin Magic, Expert at the Card Table, The Tarbell Course...
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