Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

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Postby Darren Gregory » 02/06/12 07:39 PM

Hello all,
I wanted to ask you all what you thought of handshake inductions and hypnotism as used by the likes of Derren Brown in his shows.
Are they real or do you think it's just "window dressing"?
At one of Derren Browns shows last year, I was lucky enough to be picked to go on stage. He grabbed my hand as he took it and put it to my face and went into the speech about being relaxed and not asleep but in a heightened state of awareness etc. The thing is- I was completely fully aware of what he was doing. i KNOW I was stood there with my eyes shut and head down because that's what he wanted me to do and I didnt want to spoil the show. But I was in NO WAY hypnotised at all. I was completely awake.
Do you think that this is what always happens during stage shows? Is it all just playinfg along with the magician because we are too embarrassed to say "hang on, this hasnt worked, mate".
I am beginning to question the validity of so-called instant inductions. Any thoughts??
T
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Postby mrgoat » 02/07/12 06:15 AM

I think all hypnosis is a load of bollocks and it is all people, like you, playing along because of social conditioning.

Brown even says as much in one of his books.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 02/07/12 01:41 PM

Hypnotism is bollocks depending on what you claim hypnotism to be.

In any endeavor where one believes they can profit from offering short cut solutions to desperate people one will find outrageous claims and pseudoscientific explanations.

I feel that it is the "hypnotists" that have given hypnosis a bad name.
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Postby Simone M » 02/07/12 03:35 PM

I agree with what the goat and some of what Brad Henderson said.
Hypnosis is just another concept that has been studied by western doctors and psychologists for 150 years, found of little to no value and discarded, only to be recycled later by entertainers and pseudo-healers alike.

Hypnosis has, however, a very strong historical meaning in our culture, and that's a big part of what makes people "playing along".

Although it must be told that at some point in the early 900 people who used it as a therapeutical tool (Erickson and for a little while even Freud) have achieved a few positive results, the way we inherited hypnosis ("...mysterious man shakes your hand, touches your shoulder and you fall in a deep trance where you can't help but..." etc etc) is total bollocks, and as you could experience youself, just people playing along.

It does prove though, how people are suggestible, but not into thinking they are chickens or whatever, but in not admitting that they were playing along.
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Postby Modern Maximus » 03/17/12 06:18 PM

Everyone has their beliefs and is entitled to them just as in religion or politics. Mine is that all hypnosis is suggestion, sometimes it takes hold sometimes it doesn't depending on different factors.

It seems to me hypnosis can be seen to be made up of many psychological activities that occur every day, so if one doesn't believe in hypnosis they can rightfully attribute the phenomena to one of the psychological principles.

If they do believe in hypnosis, then it's perceived magic-like and it's hypnosis. I believe the truth is in both ends of that spectrum. It's using normal, known methods of suggestion and learning, in a certain context giving it the name of hypnosis, and that's fine with me. Much of the time the hypnotists don't know why it works (the specific psychological principles etc.) they just reduce it to belief in hypnosis... and that's ... OK I guess... religious people reduce it to "God" etc. too but IMHO it's all suggestion.

Placebo is a suggestion in which once imagined a cure is given, the brain starts processes to heal. It's not that the person was tricked into thinking he/she has a 'real' pill that heals, it's the anticipation and imagining of it occurring so vividly. No one knows why or how the brain can do this, just that it does.

There is a whole spectrum, from placebos, faith healers, hypnosis, meditations , prayer etc. That can give similar miracle/magic results, but I believe it all lies in the suggestion, which is not to take away anything from it (hypnosis), on the contrary it make me embrace it all the more when I see all of these types of suggestion in action.

There is a spectrum of suggestion, different types of conditioning, advice from a friend, to being told you'll never amount to anything from a parent etc., going into becoming a belief. The spectrum to the whole hypnosis thing is so huge, that most everyone has different definitions and criteria for it and some say it doesn't exist.

Derren suggested that you relax, and you relaxed in the way you know how/have seen others relax in hypnosis. He suggested you to be in a heightened state of awareness, and it sounds like you were! He didn't suggest to feel strange or to be in a "trance" whatever a trance is (there are many many definitions of trance), so I wouldn't expect to feel any different then what he suggested. So you may or may not have been hypnotized, it depends on your definition and criteria. Only you can decide for you.

Either way, the powers of the mind are awesome and fun in a show context.
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Postby Atlas » 09/23/12 11:56 PM

I am very skeptical of hypnotists, and have yet to see a demonstration that has convinced me. A few years ago, Derren did a bit with Simon Pegg that was persuasive at first glance, but on running through it again, I was able to get at the real method. The fact that it wasn't hypnosis seems to lend strength to the question "If hypnosis exists truly, why did he not actually employ it to achieve the results he was seeking?"
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 06:56 AM

Atlas wrote:The fact that it wasn't hypnosis seems to lend strength to the question "If hypnosis exists truly, why did he not actually employ it to achieve the results he was seeking?"


Because hypnosis doesn't exist.

HTH

Damian
:)
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Postby El Mystico » 09/24/12 07:35 AM

Richard Feynman is interesting on this topic - as he is on so much else

http://www.hypnothoughts.com/profiles/b ... e=activity
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 07:50 AM

El Mystico wrote:Richard Feynman is interesting on this topic - as he is on so much else

http://www.hypnothoughts.com/profiles/b ... e=activity


Wonder why the woman that has discovered how to remove pain from painful experiences with a long lasting effect hasn't won any scientific prizes yet?

Surely drug free painless surgery would be lapped up by the medical community?
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Postby El Mystico » 09/24/12 08:41 AM

Apparently the BMA accepted the use of hypnotherapy for the treatment of pain in the 1950s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotherapy
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Postby El Mystico » 09/24/12 08:46 AM

...it shouldn't really be a surprise.
The BMJ published a nice paper showing that if you give someone a pill and tell them it is Anadin, it will cure their headaches faster than if you don't tell them it is Anadin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1505530/

Suggestion is a powerful thing.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 09:07 AM

El Mystico wrote:Suggestion is a powerful thing.


Indeed. And if you tell someone you are giving them a placebo, it STILL works.

http://www.badscience.net/2008/03/all-b ... -medicine/

However, does that mean people should be able to charge huge amounts of money for being Suggestors?

It feels VERY like faith healing to me.

Should the BMA/BMJ be supportive of this pseudo-science?

I'd be fine if they removed all the bollocks from it and said "If I tell you something with authority it is likely you will believe it". But to dress it up as something scientific feels me with ickiness.

And then when people are selling expensive courses/books/DVDs to magicians to make them think they can hypnotise people it gets even worse...
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Postby El Mystico » 09/24/12 09:13 AM

These are good questions and ones I reflect on.

Unlike faith healing, hypnotism/suggestion/placebo works - in a limited sense. So it does have value. Now - do you put that value into the hands of expensive Suggestors? Or do you encourage the BMA to use it, when they understand the limited circumstances in which it is helpful?
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 09:25 AM

"Surely drug free painless surgery would be lapped up by the medical community?"

Hypnotism has been used quite successfully for pain free operations. Feel free to read Dave Elman's Hypnotherapy. Dave Elman only taught to physicians and dentists for specifically in the use of hypnotism for pain relief.

I don't know about stage hypnotism, but hypnotism is quite real, which I know from extensive personal experience.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 09:50 AM

El Mystico wrote:These are good questions and ones I reflect on.

Unlike faith healing, hypnotism/suggestion/placebo works - in a limited sense. So it does have value. Now - do you put that value into the hands of expensive Suggestors? Or do you encourage the BMA to use it, when they understand the limited circumstances in which it is helpful?


But Faith Healing works too. There are thousands of testimonies from people with mild problems that were cured. OK, admittedly, faith healing isn't quite so hot on serious conditions, but with small things it works.

So should the BMA now be promoting Faith Healing?
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 09:52 AM

billmccloskey wrote:"Surely drug free painless surgery would be lapped up by the medical community?"

Hypnotism has been used quite successfully for pain free operations.


As it clearly 'works' as well as a sugar pill works, why aren't more procedures carried out drug free do you think?

Why hasn't the entire world embraced this amazing alternative to traditional pain relief?

Why aren't more people with immense pain given sugar pills instead of morphine?

Are you saying everyone is just stupid?
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 09:59 AM

I don't know Damian. I do know that Dave Elman's work is well documented and there are many case studies of painless childbirth and surgery using hypnosis. As to why it isn't more widely used, I would assume it has to do with it not being taught in medical schools and without someone like Elman around to promote the techniques, it probably died off. I have no idea. I do know from personal first hand experience the powers of hypnosis and have no doubt it could be used for pain free surgery.

A quick google search shows that it is still being used: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500165_162-4033962.html
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/24/12 10:03 AM

efficacy

this pill has a thirty percent chance of helping you.

versus coping with abuse.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 10:10 AM

billmccloskey wrote:I don't know Damian. I do know that Dave Elman's work is well documented and there are many case studies of painless childbirth and surgery using hypnosis.


Well the entire medical community must just be idiots then, there is clearly no other explanation. Elman's work is 'well documented' and you know hypnosis 'exists', so therefore these retarded scientists must just be being stupid.

I can think of no other conclusion.

Unless, of course, hypnosis doesn't exist and doesn't let people have pain free surgery...

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... -hypnosis/
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 10:23 AM

Damian,

Do you have a medical degree? Are you speaking because you have done research in this area? While hardly an expert, I've been studying hypnosis for about 4 months now pretty intently. How do you know hypnosis is not being used currently? Are are you just talking through your hat.

As for hypnosis not existing, that is patently false.
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 10:31 AM

Quick search on the internet reveals many doctors using hypnosis for pain relief. I quick search on hypnothoughts.com have many current videos of doctors using hypnosis for pain relief and painless child birth. so I guess "the entire" medical community are not idiots. :)
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 10:38 AM

billmccloskey wrote:Quick search on the internet reveals many doctors using hypnosis for pain relief. I quick search on hypnothoughts.com have many current videos of doctors using hypnosis for pain relief and painless child birth. so I guess "the entire" medical community are not idiots. :)
\

Well, OK, the majority of doctors are clearly idiots then. It really is the only explanation, isn't it?

And yes, I bet there are loads of youtube clips and unsupported stories with no actual research that claim amazing results. When you look more closely at those stories and see things like local anaesthetic being used and not reported in the stories, you kinda have to think that it's all nonsense though, don't you?

Where are the peer reviewed double blind tests proving it works?

There are youtube clips of people saying fairies exist. I'm not sure a video on a pro hypnosis website is good enough evidence, do you? I imagine there are loads of videos on homeopathy sites from homeopathists claiming their water works. In fact, I bet right now there are videos on religious forums saying they prayed for someone and the next day they were cured.

I'd like to see a peer reviewed, double blind, research paper published in a respected medical journal. But I cannot find one. It must be a cover up, or most doctors are idiots.
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 10:55 AM

"
I'd like to see a peer reviewed, double blind, research paper published in a respected medical journal. But I cannot find one. It must be a cover up, or most doctors are idiots."

Ha.. I can just imagine how much you've researched it.

Believe what you want friend. It is not my job to educate you. This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation.

as for the the original question, handshake inductions are possible but need immediate deepening techniques. In my experience, and I've been practicing hypnotism daily for about 4 months, longer inductions get better results. My initial induction takes about 45-60 minutes (hardly good for stage work), but then I don't do stage work. All my work is one on one.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 10:57 AM

billmccloskey wrote:"
I'd like to see a peer reviewed, double blind, research paper published in a respected medical journal. But I cannot find one. It must be a cover up, or most doctors are idiots."

Ha.. I can just imagine how much you've researched it.

Believe what you want friend. It is not my job to educate you. This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation.


If you can't find a double blind, peer reviewed research paper in a respected medical journal proving your point, just say so, no need to act like a kid about it.

I thought it would be easy for you to find something like that?

Clearly not.

Two possible reasons why:

a) there isn't one
b) there isn't one

PS I found a video clip of someone saying prayer healed their cancer! Amazing! Let's get praying added to the list of things that cure things immediately. After all, there is a video on the internet proving it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88WX7nnyXcU
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/24/12 11:00 AM

billmccloskey wrote:"
...Believe what you want friend. ...This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation...


Bill, it falls upon you to offer evidence for the extraordinarly claim you purport to have experience, faith and confidence in.

Just how sure are you that your local busy dentist could murmer sweet nothings in your loved ones ear so their cavity drilling, or a root canal procedure, would not cause them much pain and hysteria?

Nice to say you believe a thing as online text but what do you have to support that as real-world practice that we could ask for when we go to the dentist?
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 11:01 AM

Jonathan,

Hypnotherapy by Dave Elman is a good source to start if you are really interested in this subject.

If you are looking for validation of Elman's techniques, there is more than enough evidence if you want to search it out. Personally, why would I care if you believe it or not? I don't. Believe, don't believe. I couldn't care less.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/24/12 11:04 AM

Bill, been there - the question is clinical efficacy. The real world. Let's not force a "Saw" type demonstration.

If you do X, you can be 95% sure it will work. What's working in the real world?
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 11:05 AM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
billmccloskey wrote:"
...Believe what you want friend. ...This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation...


Bill, it falls upon you to offer evidence for the extraordinarly claim you purport to have experience, faith and confidence in.


Sadly JT, like most people that have faith in something with no basis in evidence, Bill will be unable to offer any proof aside from the odd book by someone else that believes.

It's how these things go.

Faith is wonderful, it lets you believe in almost anything without any actual evidence, aside from weak anecdotal stories from completely biased sources!
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 11:05 AM

Hardly the odd book. Shows your ignorance.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 11:12 AM

billmccloskey wrote:Hardly the odd book. Shows your ignorance.


Still no links to any peer reviewed double blind published tests?

I can't imagine a single reason why you are still struggling to produce actual scientific evidence. Unless, of course, there isn't any?

Whodathunkit?

Stick with calling me names though, that really helps argue your position and doesn't make it look like you have no counterpoint so are forced to resort to petty name calling.

:)

I love it when people I am debating something with prove my point for me. Makes life so much easier.
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 11:25 AM

For those interested I'd recommend the Handbook of Hypnotic Suggestions and Metaphors by Dr. Corydon Hammond. Many many citations and studies on pain management. I'd also recommend:

Techniques of Hypnotic Pain Management: Dr. Josephy Barber, Ph.d
Altering the Quality of Discomfort: Example of leg Pain, Dr. Erik Wright, M.D, Ph.d
Transformation of Pain, William Golden, E. Thomas Dowd, and Fred Friedberg
Erickson's Suggestions for Pain Control, Dr Milton Erickson, M.D
General Principles for Alleviating Persistent Pain, Dr. Ernest Rossi, Ph.D, Dr. David Cheek, M.D.
Religious Imagery of Universal Healing for Ego-Strengthening and Pain, Dr. Erik Wright, M.D, Ph.d
The "Sympathetic Ear" Technique with Chronic Pain, Dr. Barry S. Fogel, M.D
Reactivation of Pain-Free Memories: An example of Intensifying and Relieving Pain by Dr. Erik Wright, M.D, Ph.d
Chronic Pain Syndrome, Richard Garver, Ed.D
Hypnotically Elicited Mystical States in Treating Physical and Emotional Pain, D.r Paul Sacerdote, M.D , Ph.d
Active Control Strategy for Group Hypnotherapy wiht Chronic Pain, Timothy Toomey, Ph.d and Shirley Sander, Ph.d
Pain Strategies by Hypotizability Level Dr. David Spiegel, M.D and Dr. Herbert Spiegel, M.D
Reinterpreting Pain as Protection, Dr. Charles Mutter, M.D
Splinting Technique for Pain Control: Dr. Charles Mutter, M.D
Setting Sun Pain Metaphor, Dr. Alexander A Levitan, M.D
Mexican Food: Metaphor of the Body Adapting to Pain, Dr. Corydon Hammond Ph.d
Metaphor of Callous Formation, Dr. Coydon Hammond, Ph.d
Suggestions for Patients wiht Chromic Pain, Dr. Lillian Fredericks, M.D
Pain Reduction, Beata Jencks, Ph.d
"Body Lights" Approach to Ameliorating Pain and Inflammation, Dr. Ernest Rossi, Ph.d and David Cheek, M.D
Suggestions with Postherpetic Neuralgia, Diane Roberts Stoler, Ed.d
Suggestions to Reduce Pain following Hemorrhoidectomies, Dr. Ernest Werbel, M.D
Suggestions for Pain Control, Dr. Don Gibbons, Ph.d
Hypnosis for Migraine, Dr. Lillian Fredericks, M.D
Suggestions with Migraine, J.A. D Anderson, M. A. Basker, and R. Dalton
Diminution Rather than Elimination of Headache, Irving Secter, D.D.S, M.A
The progressive Anesthesia Induction-Deepening Technique, Dr. Corydon Hammond, Ph.d

The above are just some of the research papers I've read on this subject that sit on my books shelf.

For those interested.
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 11:42 AM

My guess on why you don't see more of this is that the risks of anesthesiology are not as great as they where back in the 50's and 60's. I'm not a doctor but that is my guess. The Mayo Clinic became famous because they used hypnotic induction with every patient and dramatically reduced the rate of post surgery anesthesilogical issues. I don't have time to look up the source of that info but here is a website that talks about it: http://phoenixtransformational.wordpres ... -hypnosis/
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Postby El Mystico » 09/24/12 11:46 AM

Good news; the NHS says that lots of medical treatments have benefitted from the use of hypnosis; you can get the treatment on the NHS; so doctors aren't idiots after all!

http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/ourservices/serv ... /home.aspx
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 12:02 PM

"the question is clinical efficacy.'

The question isn't clinical efficacy at all. Hypnotism wasn't introduced because it was more effective than standard anesthesiology, it was because is was SAFER. During the 50's and 60's the rate of anesthesialogical complications was quite high. The attempt was to induce painfree surgery that was also complication free. there were many reasons why it WOULDN'T work, including any kind of doubt creeping into the mind of the subject. The subject has to believe it will work, or it won't. That is the nature of hynotism. And so not only were doctors trained, but pinoeers like Elman also recommended nurses and everyone who came in contact with the patient be trained not to raise any kind of doubt in the patient.

Placebs are actually a great demonstration of hypnotism: what the mind believes can be manifested in the body. It is a fascinating subject and having witnessed the dramatic results that occur in hypnotic subjects personally, it is a subject I've decided to devote myself to.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 12:08 PM

billmccloskey wrote:For those interested I'd recommend the Handbook of Hypnotic Suggestions and Metaphors by Dr. Corydon Hammond. Many many citations and studies on pain management. I'd also recommend:

Techniques of Hypnotic Pain Management: Dr. Josephy Barber, Ph.d
Altering the Quality of Discomfort: Example of leg Pain, Dr. Erik Wright, M.D, Ph.d
Transformation of Pain, William Golden, E. Thomas Dowd, and Fred Friedberg
Erickson's Suggestions for Pain Control, Dr Milton Erickson, M.D
General Principles for Alleviating Persistent Pain, Dr. Ernest Rossi, Ph.D, Dr. David Cheek, M.D.
Religious Imagery of Universal Healing for Ego-Strengthening and Pain, Dr. Erik Wright, M.D, Ph.d
The "Sympathetic Ear" Technique with Chronic Pain, Dr. Barry S. Fogel, M.D
Reactivation of Pain-Free Memories: An example of Intensifying and Relieving Pain by Dr. Erik Wright, M.D, Ph.d
Chronic Pain Syndrome, Richard Garver, Ed.D
Hypnotically Elicited Mystical States in Treating Physical and Emotional Pain, D.r Paul Sacerdote, M.D , Ph.d
Active Control Strategy for Group Hypnotherapy wiht Chronic Pain, Timothy Toomey, Ph.d and Shirley Sander, Ph.d
Pain Strategies by Hypotizability Level Dr. David Spiegel, M.D and Dr. Herbert Spiegel, M.D
Reinterpreting Pain as Protection, Dr. Charles Mutter, M.D
Splinting Technique for Pain Control: Dr. Charles Mutter, M.D
Setting Sun Pain Metaphor, Dr. Alexander A Levitan, M.D
Mexican Food: Metaphor of the Body Adapting to Pain, Dr. Corydon Hammond Ph.d
Metaphor of Callous Formation, Dr. Coydon Hammond, Ph.d
Suggestions for Patients wiht Chromic Pain, Dr. Lillian Fredericks, M.D
Pain Reduction, Beata Jencks, Ph.d
"Body Lights" Approach to Ameliorating Pain and Inflammation, Dr. Ernest Rossi, Ph.d and David Cheek, M.D
Suggestions with Postherpetic Neuralgia, Diane Roberts Stoler, Ed.d
Suggestions to Reduce Pain following Hemorrhoidectomies, Dr. Ernest Werbel, M.D
Suggestions for Pain Control, Dr. Don Gibbons, Ph.d
Hypnosis for Migraine, Dr. Lillian Fredericks, M.D
Suggestions with Migraine, J.A. D Anderson, M. A. Basker, and R. Dalton
Diminution Rather than Elimination of Headache, Irving Secter, D.D.S, M.A
The progressive Anesthesia Induction-Deepening Technique, Dr. Corydon Hammond, Ph.d

The above are just some of the research papers I've read on this subject that sit on my books shelf.

For those interested.



Shame, not a single double blind peer reviewed paper amongst them, let alone one published in a respected medical journal.

I wonder why?
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Postby billmccloskey » 09/24/12 12:10 PM

"so doctors aren't idiots after all!"

I think there has been only one idiot identified so far in this thread. :)

"Shame, not a single double blind peer reviewed paper amongst them, let alone one published in a respected medical journal. "

Hahaha...jesus dude, you really are a moron. Made me laugh though.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 12:14 PM

El Mystico wrote:Good news; the NHS says that lots of medical treatments have benefitted from the use of hypnosis; you can get the treatment on the NHS; so doctors aren't idiots after all!

http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/ourservices/serv ... /home.aspx


Astounding! That was written by a hypnotist!

Whodathunkit?!?!!

Odd that there is no mention of it being used as an alternative to actual drugs for surgery though...wonder why?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/24/12 12:17 PM

Damian, the notion of a double blind (or even a blind) study on anesthesia during surgery is frightening.

Presuming one would even start to design such a study - imagine getting to where you read part of the protocol involves saying "neutral inductions" before performing the surgical procedure in full. OMG- that's likely worse than the studies that were done during WWII.

:(

Yes to science. No to such cruelty, please.
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Postby El Mystico » 09/24/12 12:18 PM

Not sure what you mean by your comment, "Astounding! That was written by a hypnotist! Whodathunkit?!?!!"

Are you implying it is a lie and hypnotherapy is not available on the NHS?
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Postby mrgoat » 09/24/12 12:18 PM

billmccloskey wrote:"so doctors aren't idiots after all!"

I think there has been only one idiot identified so far in this thread. :)

"Shame, not a single double blind peer reviewed paper amongst them, let alone one published in a respected medical journal. "

Hahaha...jesus dude, you really are a moron. Made me laugh though.


Brilliant. You are doing a sterling job of proving your side of the argument by calling me names rather than provide any actual evidence. Aside from a long list of biased books by hypnotists.

This is hilarious. I love it when people that believe in something that is completely unproven are backed into a corner. It's interesting what they resort to doing to deflect.
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