The juiced deck.

All beginners in magic should address their questions here.

Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/26/12 08:10 PM

Hey everyone!
I was reading Darwin Ortiz' gambling scams and I came across a gimmicked deck called a juiced deck, now I have been across the Internet researching this particular type of deck but to no avail. I have however come across some less than reputable sites purporting to sell this juice or pre juiced cards from $25 up to $600++!
Please If anyone can point me in the right direction to aquiring said deck without being ripped off I would appreciate it greatly.
I understand that this topic may be elsewhere on this forum and may have been discussed already. If it has I apologise tho I did use the search function it turned a lot of posts with the word deck in them.
Regards
Neil
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Postby erdnasephile » 01/26/12 08:29 PM

See the book, Card Finesse I by Jon Racherbaumer, for more information relevant to your question.

More importantly though--why do you wish to acquire one of these? If you're aim is to perform magic with it, there are a number of excellent practical marked decks out there which you can easily find or make yourself.

Bob Farmer also has some great work on this (BOV).
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/26/12 10:28 PM

The main reason is the mystery of the thing.
All other marked decks I can picture in my head, blockout and cutout or shade work is self explanatory despite the fact they can fool many many people but the juice deck has sparked my imagination and interest because I can't imagine what it is like to read a juiced deck.
The reason why I wish to acquire/construct a juice deck is to (apart from having a powerful tool to amaze at my fingertips) is to understand how it works, how juice itself is made and how to apply it. I would also like to know if there is any literature on marking systems to get me started.
I realise the marked deck can be used as a tool to cheat at card games but I can assure you this is not the reason why I wish to acquire this deck.
I am currently studying classic card magic and I am trying to keep as many tricks as I can gimmick free but i see no reason to limit the scope of my study of cards and the limits to which they can be used.
Kind regards
Neil
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Postby erdnasephile » 01/26/12 10:46 PM

If you want specific information on the Juiced Deck, the Racherbaumer reference above is not a bad place to start.

As far as introductory material on the use of a marked deck and marking systems, Kirk Charles' book "Marked for Life" is excellent.

BTW, I concur that there is no reason to limit your studies. The point I meant to make was that I'm not sure the juiced deck offers a quantum leap over other marked decks when it comes to magic applications (I'm sure the other more expert souls on this board will correct me if I'm dreadfully wrong on this :) ). However, if you're intriguied by the deck, go for it, I say!
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/27/12 04:33 AM

Thank you for the encouragement.
I think the main difference between the juiced deck and other marked decks, as far as my studies on the subject has taken me, is the juiced decks innate ability to stand up to scrutiny.
The riffle test will show up a block out deck, shining a light on the back of a card will invariably scupper a cut out deck. Shade decks I'm unsure about in fact I think the juiced deck comes into this catagory?
To paraphrase Darwin Ortiz in his book gambling scams he shows a juiced deck to a gambling executive who cannot see the markings even when the markings are specifically pointed out to him, that is to say this is the advantage the juiced deck has over other types of mark.
In magic the applications are endless but if I were to use them in an act it would be as an out mainly, I can imagine it would put a heckler in his place in such a manner as to keep it within the confines of a trick and even go as far as to amaze the heckler thus turning him to your side.
Thank you for the leads I will get onto them as soon as possible.
Neil
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Postby mrgoat » 01/27/12 06:30 AM

I'll tell you one thing, you'll be disappointed when you find out what a juiced deck actually is.

If you want to do magic, as stated, get one of the 'standard' marked decks. No one ever spots them anyway.

If you want to gamble with it, you could, but you might get your legs broken if they find out.

If you just want to know what it is and how it works, see my first sentence.

Good luck!
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Postby El Mystico » 01/27/12 06:30 AM

Another difference is that in the marking systems I've seen, a juiced deck will not allow you to identify specific cards; a disadvantage for magicians in many situations.
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/27/12 08:54 AM

I'm never disappointed when I learn something new.

El mystico.
I'll have to research up on marking systems to comment as I am by no means an expert on the subject but surely the more intricate the mark the easier to discern the card?
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Postby mrgoat » 01/27/12 09:09 AM

Corneilius Jay wrote:I'm never disappointed when I learn something new.


I bet you a tenner you'll be disappointed with juice work. It's used for gambling really.

:)
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/27/12 09:40 AM

I understand that the juice deck is a technique for gambling but the interest on my part isn't purely technical it's also academic due to my interest in cards, gaff cards, gimmicked cards, history of cards and their uses.
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Postby mrgoat » 01/27/12 09:51 AM

So the bet is on then?

:)
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/27/12 10:44 AM

It's hard to read juice. I was never able to acquire the knack. You're much better off with any of the printed versions of the Ted Lesley deck.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 01/27/12 10:46 AM

"the more intricate the mark the easier to discern the card?"

That is _so_ not how juice works. I think you are going to owe Damian a tenner...
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/27/12 11:26 AM

Ian Kendall wrote:"the more intricate the mark the easier to discern the card?"

That is _so_ not how juice works. I think you are going to owe Damian a tenner...


Im unaware how a juice deck works that's why the sentence you quoted me was in the form of a question and why I started this post.

Mr Kaufman.
As you can see from this forum I'm more interested in the inner workings of the juice deck specifically, not because I wish to incorporate it into an act but to study the effect based on it's merits as opposed to other more widely available styles of marked decks.
Unfortunately I cannot do this until I can get some reliable documentation on the juice deck or I acquire a deck myself or both.
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Neil.
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Postby Denis Behr » 01/27/12 11:32 AM

I don't see where the disappointment should come from. The Juice Method is very different and that's almost reason enough why it is interesting. Keep researching, Neil.
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/27/12 11:44 AM

Thank you, I will.
I can't see how anyone can be disappointed with the pursuit of knowledge whether the knowledge acquired was found to be different than expected.
Rest assured I shall continue my research.
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Postby mrgoat » 01/27/12 01:20 PM

Corneilius Jay wrote:I can't see how anyone can be disappointed with the pursuit of knowledge


You've never bought a Ben Harris effect then

;)
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Postby mrgoat » 01/27/12 01:23 PM

Seriously, though, I'm not busting your balls. I remember being very intrigued about the deck, it sounds so miraculous. Then when I encountered it, I couldn't even get it to work, like Mr K. I think it might be like a seeing eye picture thing, and I can't ever see those either ("it's a schooner").

Carry on looking, enjoy the journey, just (imho) prepare to feel a little bit meh when you find what it is.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/27/12 01:30 PM

Remember that old m&m's commercial?
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Ian Kendall » 01/27/12 03:02 PM

Probably not, he's Irish. As in in Ireland, where the M&M commercial probably never saw the light of day...

...just in case anyone thought I was being rude to the Irish.
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Postby erdnasephile » 01/27/12 03:50 PM

Corneilius:

Another reference for you: "Casino Game Protection" by Steve Forte also has an interesting section on Juice as well as a picture of juice markings.

(Incidentally, Mr. Forte states: "...most people can't see the marks on a stationary card after you show them where they are.")
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Postby AJM » 01/27/12 04:17 PM

Neil

I have to say that, as 'a (very) amateur aspiring magician' and someone who feels not quite ready to audition to join a Magic Society, you seem to be fairly racing through your studies.

Good for you.

Cheers

Andrew
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/27/12 05:19 PM

Mr Kendall.
We do have M&Ms over here and have ejoyed many of their commercials, i find their chocolaty goodness to be quite satisfying :)

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Remember that old m&m's commercial?


which commercial were you speaking of?

AJM wrote:Neil
I have to say that, as 'a (very) amateur aspiring magician' and someone who feels not quite ready to audition to join a Magic Society, you seem to be fairly racing through your studies.


Thank you, I like to study. :)

mrgoat wrote:Seriously, though, I'm not busting your balls. I remember being very intrigued about the deck, it sounds so miraculous. Then when I encountered it, I couldn't even get it to work, like Mr K. I think it might be like a seeing eye picture thing, and I can't ever see those either ("it's a schooner").

Carry on looking, enjoy the journey, just (imho) prepare to feel a little bit meh when you find what it is.


I appreciate what your saying and you may be right about the magic eye effect ( i could never see them either ) but i wont be happy till i find out whether or not its worthwhile.
I suspect it will be. :)
Regards.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 01/27/12 06:33 PM

I know there are M&Ms over here, we even have them in Scotland. However, when Jon references something with the phrase 'remember the...' it's a good bet that it was something that aired in the US, and the adverts rarely translate over here.
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Postby Mark Collier » 01/27/12 06:35 PM

Oftentimes, Jon will say something and it won't translate anywhere :)
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/27/12 09:27 PM

Mark Collier wrote:Oftentimes, Jon will say something and it won't translate anywhere :)


"These cards are marked!..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo_vyTNhHXY
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Postby Eoin O'hare » 01/27/12 10:32 PM

Neil,
Go pick up a copy of "52 ways to cheat at Poker" by Kronzek, it'll cost you about 5 euro at Amazon.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/27/12 10:53 PM

Eoin, he pretty much only needs one sentence in there. The one before the sentence about a top secret going public after it got noticed by the magic community.
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Postby Eoin O'hare » 01/27/12 11:13 PM

Jon,
True, but in my experience the more alcohol you add, the more invisible they become!
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Postby Brad Jeffers » 01/28/12 04:37 AM

Corneilius Jay wrote:Please If anyone can point me in the right direction to aquiring said deck without being ripped off I would appreciate it greatly.


Try here http://cardshark.us/shop_frs.shtml
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/28/12 05:31 AM

Eureka!
I have finally found a good starting point for some experimentation! thanks guys for all your advice was extremely helpful.
It will probably still take alot of time,practice and experimentation but the breakthrough has been made!
many thanks to you all
Neil
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Postby El Mystico » 01/28/12 02:31 PM

It's interesting; you asked for a non-rip-off source.
The guys here gave you the most cost effective source almost immediately - Card Finesse. But, you didn't want to buy a book: someone gives you a link to a site which sells the deck - at a higher price than the book - and you feel this is your eureka moment.
As a consequence I have a feeling you are going too struggle with this...but - please keep us posted: I love being wrong - that's when I learn.
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/28/12 03:37 PM

El Mystico wrote:It's interesting; you asked for a non-rip-off source.
The guys here gave you the most cost effective source almost immediately - Card Finesse. But, you didn't want to buy a book: someone gives you a link to a site which sells the deck - at a higher price than the book - and you feel this is your eureka moment.
As a consequence I have a feeling you are going too struggle with this...but - please keep us posted: I love being wrong - that's when I learn.


I believe you have misjudged me.

Eoin O'Hare wrote:Neil,
Go pick up a copy of "52 ways to cheat at Poker" by Kronzek, it'll cost you about 5 euro at Amazon.


This is the advice I took.
It had the information I needed to continue with my studies.
Regards
Neil
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Postby El Mystico » 01/28/12 03:45 PM

Cornelius: thanms for this. I'll be really happy to find I'd misjudged you! I look forward to your reports on your experiences!
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/28/12 04:32 PM

No problem El Mystico.
I don't like taking shortcuts. I prefer to learn from the ground up, which incidentally is how I think all magicians should learn.
As far as I can see the sale of marketed effects in conjunction with the Internet along with YouTube is hurting the art of magic by magicians taking the quick and easy route of using gimmicks gaffs and prepacked effects as a whole act without a good grounding in the basics of technique and theory, I am not at all saying that gaffs gimmicks and suchlike shouldn't be used and are bad, all I'm saying is the magician who knows only how to use gimmicks is scuppered when asked to do something impromptu or if their "props" fail.
Neil
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/28/12 04:49 PM

"These cards are marked!..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo_vyTNhHXY


That's a funny commercial no I hadn't seen that one before. Tho my wife has as she is American. :)
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Postby Corneilius Jay » 01/29/12 12:46 PM

Hello all.
I had a bit of a go with surprisingly good results despite the fact that I had to use some less than ideal ingredients.
I juiced some spare BCG cards I had lying around with a couple of different concoctions one which went straight through the card (I kid you not) to one that was deceptive enough for me to not see the mark I had just made without any blemishes on the card!
I have got a lot of things to work out and as soon as payday comes round I'll be going downtown to purchase some proper engredients.
I'll keep you posted.
Neil
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Postby BrianB2 » 01/31/12 12:56 PM

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Postby Donhdunn » 01/31/12 01:31 PM

Not all magic societies require an audition. For most, a sincere interest is enough to earn a membership card.
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Postby mrgoat » 01/31/12 01:34 PM

Dondunn wrote:Not all magic societies require an audition. For most, a sincere interest is enough to earn a membership card.


Equally as relevant to the thread, perfect boiled eggs are made by putting eggs in a pan of cold water, wait until you get a rolling boil, then cover and remove from the heat for exactly 2:45 seconds.
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