What you would like to find in Foundations 3 ?

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Philippe Noël » 12/25/11 08:52 AM

Hi guys,
I really like the Foundations DVDs.
They really are a pleasure to watch.
Jason gives you the history of the moves and some sources for further study.
He is also a very good teacher.
Jason has already covered The Diagonal Palm Shift, The Bottom Deal, The Center Deal, The Strike Second Deal, The Greek Deal, The Push Through False Shuffle, Palming Fundamentals and The Mac Millan Switch in Volume 1.
He has covered The Double Lift, The Classic Pass, Riffle Stacking, The Pinky Count, The Gambler's Cop, The Push Off Second Deal and the Zarrow Shuffle in Volume 3.
What are the subjects that you would like him to cover on Volume 3?
Personnaly, I would love him to cover The Stevens Control, The Stevens Cull, The Strip Out False Shuffle...
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/25/11 06:13 PM

While I am always interested in what Jason has to say about any move, I am curious how many of these topics qualify as 'foundational'. What is the mission statement of the series?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/25/11 10:28 PM

They are the sleights required to build the foundation required for a good sleight of hand artist. Did I have to explain that?
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/25/11 11:40 PM

Richard, do you think a center deal, Greek deal and the McMillan switch are 'foundation' sleights? These moves, along with riffle stacking, would seem to me to be more advanced skills one would explore in a sleight of hand pedagogy. I found it odd that a double lift is not covered until volume two - after a Greek deal and diagonal palm shift, and I see nothing about over hand shuffle controls, various card changes, or any counts to speak of. (again, my sum total knowledge of this series comes from this post)

So yea, I think it is worthy of explanation. I'll ask Jason. I'll get an answer free from personal invective you condemned others for in the other thread

Merry Christmas to you, too
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/26/11 12:39 AM

I know cardmen who absolutely avoid the Double Lift, so--yes--I could see that coming in volume 2.

False deals are far undervalued by most cardmen because they eliminate the need to learn many other sleights. This I know from spending decades watching Gene Maze. And I would say that the MacMillan Switch (difficult it may be) belongs in the arsenal of any self-respecting sleight of hand artist.

So, while this is Jason's take on "foundation" sleights, it certainly is a valid one (not the only one, but a valid one nonetheless).
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/26/11 01:29 AM

And is this series meant to be jason's take on what he considers foundational sleights for a card man? That's all I was asking.

I agree about the importance of false dealing skills (and I too leanred a lot from the few times I had the priveledge of sitting with maze) - and palming. However I still don't know if I would consider a Greek or center 'foundational'. It would depend on what that foundation is meant to be of.

Having said that, looking at the published ouevre of card magic, how many tricks call for Greeks, centers, and riffle stacking? Is the goal of this series to train those interested in performance, those interested in working their way through the literature, or those who have other goals?

I dont know - which is why i asked - and got the snarky reply

I think one needs to know the answer to that question before they can help
phillippe with his. Sorry I tried to participate in the forum
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/26/11 12:31 PM

Don't be oversensative, Brad. I greatly appreciate your participation in the Forum. But considering Jason's background and known interests, I would say his view of a "foundation" is not going to be the common one. That might be good or bad, helpful or not, depending upon what the student wants to learn.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/26/11 12:56 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:They are the sleights required to build the foundation required for a good sleight of hand artist. Did I have to explain that?


Odd that - as in our craft the idea is for the audience not to know we are using sleight of hand.

And those items mentioned on the list are not usually the items that go into a foundation - perhaps more like the hearth and heating system of the house but not, IMHO the foundation.

Getting back to the "sleight of hand artist" problem - why not add "gaffed prop artist" to the list as well? If they think they know how you're doing it (audience) - you've lost the magic and are now just seeming to show off your toys or skill. :( for magic and a cheat for real jugglers and technologists.
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Postby Terry » 12/26/11 01:32 PM

Properly executed Jonathan, sleights are hidden from the audience.

I agree with Richard in that this constitutes what Jason finds to be foundational sleights that sleight of hand workers should know.

The double undercut to place a card on top/bottom replaced the work needed to learn the pass. It didn't improve the move as much as made it easier to move the card. Not better, just different.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/26/11 02:28 PM

Terry wrote:Properly executed Jonathan, sleights are hidden from the audience...


With sleights hidden just means they know what, where and when but did not actually see the thing happen. If they think you're doing sleights you may as well take up juggling... unless you're attempting to demonstrate skill - but that's also juggling.
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Postby Edward Pungot » 12/26/11 04:01 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:a good sleight of hand artist

Getting back to the "sleight of hand artist" problem


Some circles I circumnavigate called this masturbating in front of a mirror, but sleight-of-hand artist is a nicer way of saying it.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/26/11 04:05 PM

Derek Dingle always called himself a "sleight of hand artist" on his business card. I don't think he is to be considered a mirror masturbator.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 12/26/11 04:28 PM

Jon,

You're being, as you often are, literal to the point of absurdity.

Hidden, it's a simple word. If we make the sleights completely contextual and as part of actions that are occurring anyway, we're hiding them. Truly effective sleight-of-hand is the furthest thing from juggling.

Why are we discussing what another magician should or should not do, anyway. I don't know Mr. England all that well, but I'm smart enough to know he follows his own muse. He picked a great title for two DVDs. If he wanted our inputs on sleights to include in his next DVD, that presupposes two things.

1. He actually gives a crap about what we think.
2. He has plans for another DVD.

I say, "let's be happy that he chose to explain the sleights he did, for us." There's a lifetime of practice in either of those DVDs". Let's not worry about what Jason has in store for the future.

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Postby Q. Kumber » 12/26/11 06:07 PM

Sounds to me that it should be called "Foundations to Advanced Card Magic".

Pity you guys never saw Johnny Hoffman who died in Ireland in 1975. He mostly worked carnivals and halls and could easily do forty minutes of stand-up (not close-up) magic with just a pack of cards. As far as I know he only used the classic force, the bottom change and the palm.

He had numerous routines where he classic forced cards on a row of spectators.

I'm pretty sure Pat Page used the same basic three sleights in his own professional work.
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Postby Edward Pungot » 12/26/11 06:57 PM

In your opinion, based on the comments above, would you say "advanced" card work is misguided? Or am I misinterpreting the message?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/26/11 07:02 PM

IMHO the audience not supposed to be admiring the tools or their usage but what the tools got done i.e. the magical effects accomplished.
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on 12/26/11 07:08 PM, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: put the what not before the what to
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Postby Edward Pungot » 12/26/11 07:06 PM

But who doesn't want to show these off?

[img:left]http://www.searchrobot.net/power-tools-1.jpg[/img]
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/26/11 07:13 PM

Yes, good time to mention miss direction
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Edward Pungot » 12/26/11 07:17 PM

But back to the topic. Take Dan and Dave Buck. Here are two brothers who have managed to create a niche for themselves and are quite popular with the younger crowd of magicians. You have to admit a certain art and style to what they do. They appear to accomplish BOTH the desired effect as well as the flashy sleight-of-hand with a tension and a balance that works.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/26/11 07:26 PM

I would have picked Armando Lucero as an example of someone who uses some advanced sleight of hand yet does not let the method get in the way of the effect.

Getting back to the Foundation Trilogy ... anyone who learns to do that stuff well enough to use as a foundation for their entertainment, ie the sleights just get the work done without attracting focus or diverting attention, will have one heck of a lot of options for building the rest of their effects and scripts.
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Postby Edward Pungot » 12/26/11 08:08 PM

I guess that answers my question Jon, thanks. It really is expanding one's options as to where one can go next. The answer was staring right at me, but sometimes the concept doesn't gel until one dialogues it through. It's one of those "DUH" moments for me, pardon the dust.
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Postby Q. Kumber » 12/26/11 08:14 PM

sprongshift wrote:In your opinion, based on the comments above, would you say "advanced" card work is misguided? Or am I misinterpreting the message?


It all depends on your interest, context and goals. I know quite a number of magicians who have exceptional sleight-of-hand skills, especially with cards. Most of them are amateurs (in the sense they have a love and passion for their art). Nothing makes them happier than working on moves. I also know a number of professionals who can do moves with the best of them, but when it comes to paid performances for the public use no more than the basics.

I think people should go where the magic takes them and follow what makes them happy.

Having said all that I've seen Michael Vincent perform routines containing more "advanced" moves that would fill a Harry Lorayne book, yet the effect was direct and clear.
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Postby Doc Dixon » 12/27/11 09:08 AM

I think it's pathetic when a magic book or dvd is not accurately described by its title.

Sincerely,

Doc Dixon
author of Everything is Funnier with Monkeys
Available at www.dixonmagic.com
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Postby mrgoat » 12/27/11 11:33 AM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:I would have picked Armando Lucero as an example of someone who uses some advanced sleight of hand yet does not let the method get in the way of the effect.


No, instead he uses a really misguided sense of 'theatre' and 'art' to get in the way of the magic. Saw him lecture 2 or 3 years ago. Never witnessed such pretentiousness in magic before!
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 12/27/11 01:18 PM

Doc Dixon wrote:I think it's pathetic when a magic book or dvd is not accurately described by its title.

Sincerely,

Doc Dixon

author of Everything is Funnier with Monkeys


+1
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Postby AlessandroPangia » 02/09/12 07:20 AM

Replying to Philippe, I think that all of the Steven's control and shuffle and maybe the Strip Ou will never be published by Jason, at least for now, because many young "magicians" that watch online tutorials on youtube and are not serious about card magic, will buy them, like the others downloads and easily put them in download for free...
Imagine seeing the internet flooded by young "magicians" doing the move, it would be crazy, they are very difficult moves (especially the first two), they will take years to get down perfectly. If people want to learn moves such as those, should track down sources like Revelations and Down Under Deals and study them carefully, but all if they are serious about card magic. Otherwise, let them do flourishes...
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/09/12 04:08 PM

I've asked the previous poster to stop using Vernon's image for his avatar and nickname for his Display Name. Same thing goes for everyone else: don't use the identity of a famous person--living or dead--in our field. Unless it's S.W. Erdnase, and then you're all welcome to go nuts.
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Postby AlessandroPangia » 02/09/12 05:44 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I've asked the previous poster to stop using Vernon's image for his avatar and nickname for his Display Name. Same thing goes for everyone else: don't use the identity of a famous person--living or dead--in our field. Unless it's S.W. Erdnase, and then you're all welcome to go nuts.


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that I will change the image and the nickname, thank you for letting me know Mr. Kaufman.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/09/12 05:57 PM

Thank you! What is the image hidden in your avatar?
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Postby AlessandroPangia » 02/09/12 06:39 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Thank you! What is the image hidden in your avatar?


Thank you for the interest, it is a Bee Back No.35 (Worm Back) rivisited by CARC, instead of the little squiggles of the original back it has miniaturised images of "Expert at The Card Table" moves, pretty interesting. It is one way too of course.
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