Credit for Coin-in-Deck?

Discuss the tricks and sleights which appear in Genii.

Postby David Acer » 10/04/11 01:39 PM

Does anyone know the origin or originator of the plot wherein a coin vanishes and appears inside a deck immediately above a chosen card? All reasonable offers will be considered.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 10/04/11 01:40 PM

Perhaps start with Paul Harris?
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Postby Joe Pecore » 10/04/11 02:00 PM

I believe Paul's version was "Hi Ho Silver", first published in Supermagic (1977).
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/04/11 02:01 PM

The Jennings Coin cut?
Usually done as a spider vanish then a cut where you do the work on the downbeat.
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Postby Joe Pecore » 10/04/11 02:20 PM

From The Gen, June 1967, page 33:
"Coin in Deck" by Larry Jennings":
A card is selected, noted and replaced in the deck. Next a coin is vanished and when the deck is cut, the coin is found next to the selected card. "...based on an idea of Ed Marlos but the method of working is quite different."
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/04/11 03:09 PM

The three methods by Marlo are described in New Tops, Vol. 5, no. 4, april 1965 under the name A Coin and Cards.

Another three methods entitled Impromptu Coin and Cards are described in New Tops, Vol. 5, no. 8, August 1965.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/04/11 03:41 PM

Am I missing something, or isn't this Bob Driebeck's effect "Tosheroon"?

I found this on magicbunny, posted by "Mark Yeager":
"Your credits are the most accurate. ... It was in Frank Garcia's "Million Dollar Card Secrets" in 1972. In Frank's next book " Super Subtle Card Miracles" at the end of the book he credits Bob Driebeck. He also said that it was marketed by Harry Stanley circa 1962."
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/04/11 03:51 PM

If I recall correctly, Tosheroon is where you turn over the pack and put a coin onto the card as your bet, then change the card face up while the coin rests on top undisturbed.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/04/11 04:06 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:If I recall correctly, Tosheroon is where you turn over the pack and put a coin onto the card as your bet, then change the card face up while the coin rests on top undisturbed.


You are correct.

Tosheroon was first a marketed trick in 1962, then explained in The Gen March 1968.

Bernard Bilis has a version in Close-up French Style (1976) and Marlo has an impromptu version in Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 4, 1980.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/04/11 04:10 PM

One could easily imagine a version of the Tosheroon routine where you load the gaff and coin together while the pack is face down. You could then table the pack face up, introduce and then vanish a coin. Cut the pack face up to the wrong card and lose the duplicate coin under what was the top half of the face up pack (guess we need a closup pad for this handling). Then proceed and use a scoop addunder for the gaffus as you pick up the other half of the pack as they stare wide-eyed.

Just thinking,

J
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Reason: probably the n+1 person to "invent" that handling of the trick :)
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Postby JammyT » 10/05/11 07:29 AM

Can't you achieve this with a scotch n' soda / coin unique gimmick?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/05/11 08:39 AM

@JammyT - the card changes. The coin just sets there even though the card underneath it changes. Using the Toscheroon item you can use a marked coin with the mark in full display... and if they go grabbing the coin or looking at the card - both are innocent.
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Postby JammyT » 10/05/11 11:42 AM

@ Jonathan Townsend

Original post doesn't mention a card change

only 'coin vanishes and appears inside a deck immediately above a chosen card'

please be more specific
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/05/11 11:47 AM

@JammyT, congratulations, your posts will be ignored. bye.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/05/11 12:12 PM

Regarding Tosheroon, I forget to mention a Marlo's version in Pallbearers Review, Vol. 1, no. 10, August 1966, named Card Flight.

Now I understand his remark in Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 4, to wit:

"The original "Tosheroon" effect was an idea of Bob Driebeck of Holland and in writting up "Marlo's Tosheroon", re-titled "Card Flight" and now referred to as "Visible Tosheroon", the inspirational source was fully credited but for some devious reason was deleted by the editor of that now finally buried magazine."


Generaly, Karl Fulves gave originals credits in the following issues under the column named Reference Shelf.
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Postby David Acer » 10/05/11 12:25 PM

Thanks folks - I'll look into all of the above. And as a token of my gratitude, here's a video of a squirrel eating a lemon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTxbPXatNMY
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/05/11 12:56 PM

The Card in the Lemmon is a good trick but I think this squirrel takes too long time for the revelation. Tex Avery was not his professor.
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Postby Jim Patton » 10/05/11 12:56 PM

I vaguely recall that the original Driebeck effect "Tosheroon" was a marketed effect here in the US. Also have a recollection that Frank Garcia's name was associated with it.........something about US marketing rights having been acquired as a result of a trade between Garcia and Driebeck...........It was marketed under the name: "Razzle-Dazzle".
It was regularly performed, for many years, by Bruce Cervon in his close-up appearances at the Castle.
The execution utilized the Marlo "Rise, Rise, Rise" cop and has no relation to LJ's Coin Cut........
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/05/11 01:03 PM

There's a listing of a Frank Garcia item in Micky Hades catalog online about tossing a coin into a pack where it is found to have landed on a selected card. Nothing about a face up change in that listing though.

http://www.mickyhades.com/packets03.(N%20to%20Z.htm
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Postby Jim Patton » 10/05/11 03:24 PM

Check an old Tannen's catalog around the mid sixties......Seem to recall that's where I may have seen the ad for "Razzle-Dazzle".
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Postby Brad Henderson » 10/05/11 03:32 PM

I want to say I saw something in the Roy Benson book that made me think of this, but that may have been a printed mini card appearing under a coin.

Also, fwiw, toosheroon appears in a set of Fred Kaps notes - for those interested,
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/05/11 03:45 PM

You're right, Jim

Razzle-Dazzle, first ad in March 1964 and reviewed in April.

Attributed to Frank Garcia in the Ad and...

RAZZLE DAZZLE - Mickey O'Malley.

EFFECT: Spectator selects a card from a shuffled deck and
signs his name across it. (You don't.watch him sign it).

Selected card is lost in shuffled deck. Top and bottom cards are shown and are not the card and are placed in deck.

Borrow 25c or a half dollar, which they mark. Coin is placed on face of cards and you say "Is that your card?" They say "no." The remainder of cards are dropped on and you square the deck.

Ask them to name their card lift up, and marked coin is on their signed card.

A mechanical trick - no sleights. $2.00.

Lou Tannen, 120 W. 42nd St., New York City, N. Y.
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Postby Jim Patton » 10/05/11 04:04 PM

Thanks, Phillippe........Q.: Who gets credit for the Cop of the gimmicked card for the face up revelation? The effect, as marketed by Tannen's would seem, by the description, to be accomplished by other than sleight-of-hand. (A couple of methods come readily to mind). Perhaps JR might offer a suggestion..........
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/06/11 09:37 AM

To our historians -

There's "gotta" be a handling where you essentially do a Hofzinser spread cull in reverse to place a coin on top of a selected card as you have it replaced into the rest of the pack spread between the hands. The next steps, introduce a coin, perform a coin vanish, reveal by cutting the pack, pick up the coin and do a utility switch to return the borrowed coin just seem too "classic" to have gone uncombined since Ponsin or even in Scot's time.

@JP - the Tabled Palm (cop from top) seems a Marlo item.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 10/06/11 10:34 AM

Marlo's Flexible Miracle Spread in "35 Years Later" (1986?). The original Miracle Spread in Ibidem 20 was just for cards, but the with Flexible Miracle Spread you can use a coin or other object after the fashion of a Hofzinser spread cull.

The Fred Kaps lecture notes mentioned above have some alternative handlings of Tosheroon where you slip the card under the coin.

And Marlo's Holee Revelation in Randy Wakeman's "Special Effects" is a Jennings Revelation where the face cards change with coins on top of the four piles. More like Tosheroon than the Coin Cut effect though.
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Postby Jim Patton » 10/06/11 11:43 AM

Jonathan,
Yes, as noted in an earlier post, the change of the face up card beneath the coin was accomplished by employing the Marlo "Rise, Rise, Rise" cop as found in R.C.T. I'm relatively certain that, although using Marlo's cop, the face up change was not Marlo's idea.
The question remains, who gets credit for this method? Bruce C. never claimed credit, although the method and effect became associated with him.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/07/11 08:53 AM

Not sure what you're asking there Jim. The card under the coin change notion using the gaff seems to be Bob Driebeck's.

Anyone have the original instructions for that item?
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Postby Jim Patton » 10/07/11 11:16 AM

Did Driebeck use the Marlo cop to effect the change?
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/07/11 11:28 AM

No!

As written in The Gen, March 1968:

A borrowed coin is marked and place on the face of the pack. PACK IS CUT and when CUT AGAIN, the marked coin is resting on the face of the selected card.


And Marlo in Pallbearers, August 1966:

A card is chosen and shuffled back into the deck. The deck is turned face-up and a coin placed on the face card. The pack is placed on the table face-up. THE MAGICIAN WAVES his hand over the deck and the FACE CARD CHANGES TO THE SELECTED CARD. THE COIN IS STILL ON THE FACE OF THE PACK;

Sleight used: Flat Table Palm Steal (from The Tabled Palm, 1957).
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Postby El Mystico » 10/07/11 12:05 PM

Is there a film anywhere of Bruce Cervon performing it? I understand his performance got a great reaction.
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Postby Jim Patton » 10/07/11 03:54 PM

Well, then........It would appear that the application of the Flat Tabled Palm (aka: Rise, Rise, Rise mechanic)is, in fact, Marlo's Thanks for that Pallbearers citation, Phillippe............
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/08/11 03:30 AM

"Ungaffed Tosheroon" is also a good idea (1980). The sleight used is "The Marlo Card Clip" first published in 1961.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/14/11 03:31 AM

I don't know if it's too late but it seems that U.F. Grant was the orginator of Coin-in-Deck.

You can find this in Ken krenzel's Ingeniuties (1997), page 79. Unfortunately, Stephen Minch (or Ken Krenzel) doesn't give the reference.

If someone knows where Grant published this trick, thanks in advance.
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Postby Joe Pecore » 10/14/11 07:21 AM

There was "Silver Sleuth" by U.F. Grant in MUM January 1970:

"Come forward with a half dollar concealed on the bottom of a deck of cards. Have one selected, returned on top, and give the pack a complete cut, which places the half dollar immediately over the chosen card somewhere in the center. Lay the deck aside for the moment. Remove a duplicate half from your pocket, vanish it, cut the deck at the middle to show the coin, and then turn over the chosen card just below it."
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/14/11 08:42 AM

Thanks Joe.

But if Grant created this trick in 69/70, he can't be the creator of the concept because Marlo published his trick in 1965.

I found a trick by William Larsen, Sr., published in Genii December 1937, page 116, entitled "A Cut with a Coin".

A coin is spun in the air, then drop into the deck which is being riffled, edge upward, with the left thumb. The deck is divided at the point where the coin lies and the number of cards above is the one chosen by a spectator or the card above the coin is the chosen card.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/15/11 05:09 AM

In fact, U.F. Grant's Silver Sleuth is a trick from the 30s or 40s because its explaination in MUM 1970 was J.G. Thompson's Book The Living End, serialized in MUM then published in 1972 by Hades.

This book is a collection of methods for revealing the selected, thought of, or peeked at cards up to 1940.

So U.F. Grant IS the creator of the concept.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 10/30/11 08:13 PM

Better late than never:

In Peter Duffie's "Card Magic USA" there's Easy Coin Cut by Steve Reynolds, the original version of which he says was in U.F. Grant's "50 Kute Koin Tricks" (apparently from 1940, though the copy I have is undated).
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/31/11 04:12 AM

Thanks, Edwin.

First ad for 50 Kute Koin Tricks appeared in The Linking Ring, Vol. 20, No. 2, April 1940. See 2nd cover.
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