Name of This Effect?

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Martin Kaplan » 08/25/11 03:11 PM

I am trying to track down the origin or the inventor of a card effect that was taught to me by Dean Dill many years ago and that appears to be well known in Spain. Neither Dean nor the Spanish magicians with whom I have spoken know anything about the creator of the effect.

It is an effect in which the spectator finds his selected card by a series of eliminations. The deck consists of any 12 odd cards, followed by 36 cards of the same value and four more odd cards below them to make up the 52 card deck.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Marty
Martin Kaplan
 
Posts: 148
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Los Angeles

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/25/11 04:00 PM

Something like the trick in Ponsin where cards are dealt into a circle around a bottle?
Mundus vult decipi
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6664
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/26/11 03:32 AM

Or the trick in which you can spell any name to find the card ?
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/26/11 10:02 AM

I sent Martin the data from the pertinent pages of Ponsin on Conjuring about the pointer trick.

What do you think, another Marlo sighting?
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6664
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Martin Kaplan » 08/26/11 11:42 AM

Thank you very much, Jonathan. The effect you sent seems to be the genesis of the effect. Any other ideas or suggestions will be very much appreciated!
Last edited by Martin Kaplan on 08/26/11 11:43 AM, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: Corrected spelling.
Martin Kaplan
 
Posts: 148
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Los Angeles

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/26/11 12:19 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote: What do you think, another Marlo sighting?


Another proof that Marlo was a temporal traveler.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Paul Green » 08/26/11 01:34 PM

Marty,

This is a trick developed by Hans Trixer and sold by Ken Brooke. Ask Pete Biro for the name.

Card selected and returned to the pack. Six piles of cards are dealt out. Excess cards are shown to be normal. A Blank Die (or Invisible Die) is tossed and the matching pile is selected. The other five piles are "shown" to have random cards. The selected pile is dealt into a row of six cards. The remaining two cards are flashed to show random cards. The die is tossed once more and the matching card is separated from the rest. The other five cards are removed. The selected card is shown to the original selection!

I used this trick/routine quite a bit. The only downside is the reset. Takes a minute or two. But the trick itself is quite strong.

Respectfully,

Paul Green
Paul Green
 
Posts: 288
Joined: 03/15/08 08:29 PM
Location: California

Postby Roy McIlwee » 08/26/11 09:03 PM

See Bill Wisch and Claud Rix.
Roy McIlwee
 
Posts: 47
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Scranton, Pa.

Postby Martin Kaplan » 08/27/11 05:37 PM

Roy:

Are you saying they might know the origin of the trick or that they have an effect that is either the self-same trick or something similar?
Martin Kaplan
 
Posts: 148
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Los Angeles

Postby Roy McIlwee » 08/27/11 06:33 PM

Martin,
Claude Rix is the originator. Bill Wisch saw him perform this trick in NYC in July of 1971. In 1978 Wisch added the fitting name "Killer" and the use of an invisible die. Thank you, Roy McIlwee, Scranton, Penna.
Roy McIlwee
 
Posts: 47
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Scranton, Pa.

Postby Paul Green » 08/27/11 09:20 PM

Claude Rix might be correct!? I know that I purchased the routine from Ken Brooke's Magic Place.

Again, respectfully,

Paul Green
Paul Green
 
Posts: 288
Joined: 03/15/08 08:29 PM
Location: California

Postby Peter Vanspauwen » 08/28/11 07:46 AM

In addition, Aldo Colombini had his own version with a regular deck, called "Car-Dice Miracle". This version was described by Lewis Ganson in Magigram, Vol. 11. There the trick was credited to Pavel, who also used 36 duplicate cards. No mention of Claude Rix though.

Regards
Peter Vanspauwen
Peter Vanspauwen
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 02/05/08 01:00 PM
Location: Belgium

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/28/11 11:45 AM

Right! In number 4, december 1978.

What is the date for Claude Rix reference?
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Peter Vanspauwen » 08/28/11 04:30 PM

The routine is described in Claude Rix's lecture notes "Original Close Up Routines" and is titled "The Magic Die".
In his French book "Livre Correspondance et Manigances" Rix calls this trick "Le d de Claude Rix" ;).
Marc de Souza has a similar routine called "Die of Destiny". The description includes credit to Claude Rix.

Regards
Peter Vanspauwen
Peter Vanspauwen
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 02/05/08 01:00 PM
Location: Belgium

Postby Martin Kaplan » 08/28/11 07:53 PM

A heartfelt thanks to all who responded to my query. I now have all the information I need.

-Marty
Martin Kaplan
 
Posts: 148
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Los Angeles

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/29/11 03:05 AM

Peter Vanspauwen wrote:The routine is described in Claude Rix's lecture notes "Original Close Up Routines" and is titled "The Magic Die".
In his French book "Livre Correspondance et Manigances" Rix calls this trick "Le d de Claude Rix" ;).
Marc de Souza has a similar routine called "Die of Destiny". The description includes credit to Claude Rix.

Regards
Peter Vanspauwen


Thanks Peter.

Bad luck for me.

There is no date for his lecture notes and his book was published in 2008.
I have to look for his contributions in french magazines.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/29/11 08:24 AM

In french magazine Arcane no. 87, july 1997, I found a trick by Claude Rix named Localisation which needs only nine duplicates and two gaffed-dice and you reveal two cards with a choice of six packets but it seems to be another trick because you refer to a trick named THE MAGIC DIE, not THE MAGIC DICES.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/29/11 10:41 AM

Actually, Jack Hugues seems to be the precursor.

See here :

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... &7&start=0
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/29/11 10:55 AM

What's the difference between laying out a circle of cards and letting them spin a pointer to select/eliminate and letting them role an invisible die to select/eliminate cards till they arrive a one card, their selection?

or is Rix the guy Ponsin cited?
Mundus vult decipi
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6664
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/29/11 11:57 AM

In fact, reveal a card with a dice is older than the trick described by Ponsin in 1853.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/29/11 12:19 PM

Philippe, who was using an imaginary die that a vounteer rolls?
Mundus vult decipi
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6664
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/29/11 12:32 PM

I know this approach exists but I don't remember who is the creator. Sorry.

May be we can find something in Martin Gardner or Bob Hummer's work.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Peter Vanspauwen » 08/29/11 01:38 PM

The blank die as used by de Souza doesn't count as imaginary, I presume? :)

Regards
Peter Vanspauwen
Peter Vanspauwen
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 02/05/08 01:00 PM
Location: Belgium

Postby Peter Vanspauwen » 08/29/11 01:42 PM

I searched Nouvelles rcrations physiques et mathmatiques, Guyot, 1786, in order to find more of such a trick preceding Poncin's, but without success.
Peter Vanspauwen
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 02/05/08 01:00 PM
Location: Belgium

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/29/11 02:16 PM

This appears to be the inverse of Vernon's Trick that Can't be Explained.

Peter Vanspauwen wrote:The blank die as used by de Souza doesn't count as imaginary, I presume? :)


I'd have to ask Marc how he came to the blank die where a volunteer claims to see spots.

IMHO it's all about the same as spelling the name of ones favorite flavor, drink, pet or counting down the number of five dollar bills in ones pocket - palaver to serve the audience in context. The base methodolgy is designed to permit great freedom in structuring the ultimate isolation of one card.
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6664
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/29/11 02:40 PM

Here is a trick by Nick Trost in 1977 :

U N CARDS Nick Trost - This is a nice mathematical close-up effect.

Nine blank-faced cards are shown front and back and dealt in
a row. Spectator throws an imaginary die and doubles the result.

The one odd card (a different back or a printed face) is shown at the exact position in the tabled row.

Price $2.50. Nick Trost, 1382 Virginia Ave., Columbus, OH 43212.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/29/11 02:55 PM

Hmmm - isn't there a Marlo move in there to show the backs of the cards? ;)
Mundus vult decipi
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6664
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/29/11 04:15 PM

If you accept that Trost was the real creator of Eight Card Brainwave, not Garcia (I can prove it), may be the same Marlo move was used.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Max Maven » 08/30/11 08:11 AM

So far as I know, the earliest use of blank cubes to represent dice (i.e., so that the spectator rolls them but makes up the resulting total) is in "Ice Dice," which I published in lecture notes in 1974, and marketed the following year.

I'm certainly not assuming that there are no prior references, just noting that this is the earliest I know of. For the record, the trick itself was based on a Stewart James effect, and the "blank dice" presentation was based on a gag in the Broadway musical "Guys & Dolls" from 1950. That, in turn, was based on the short stories of Damon Runyon, so the gag probably started there.
Max Maven
 
Posts: 362
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollywood, CA

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/30/11 10:46 AM

Isn't it in ''Card Tricks for People Who Don't Do Card Tricks'' (1974), page 6 and reprint in Shuffled Lecture (1981)?
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/31/11 05:45 AM

I find your marketed trick in Linking Ring August 1975, reviewed by John Braun like this :

"Phil Goldstein's Ice-Dice $1.50

Numbers thrown with two "invisibly spotted dice" locate a selected card. A variation on "a Nick Trost variation on a Stewart James origination." You get the dice, neatly printed instructions; you supply the cards and learn the handling."

Also I find in The James File, vol. 1 (2000), page 1330, your commentaries about the "invisible die" and you give this reference : The Die Is Cast by Bruce Elliott in The Phoenix no. 292, October 23rd, 1953, inspired by G.W. Hunter and Tom Sellers.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby Max Maven » 08/31/11 08:03 AM

To clarify: The tricks by Elliott, Hunter and Sellers used an imaginary die (and a different plot, using a matchbox to predict an outcome of one to six). "Ice Dice" used a physical prop -- two cubes made of transparent acrylic.

In the write-up, I also suggested that you could use blank solid-color cubes (not difficult to find in various children's game sets), or sugar cubes, or actual ice cubes, or imaginary dice.

I'm not claiming any great conceptual breakthroughs here, just noting that, so far as I know, the visual gag of spotless dice was first put into print by me. The only real advantage of this idea over an imaginary set is that you get an extra moment of amusement when you initially bring out the dice in your fist, and rattle them. The audience hears the sound, envisions normal dice, and is thus surprised when they turn out to be transparent.
Max Maven
 
Posts: 362
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollywood, CA

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/31/11 08:59 AM

Thanks for these informations.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE

Postby El Mystico » 08/31/11 09:13 AM

For obvious reasons, i suspect Max is right....

...but I wanted to mention Vernon's Dai's Mental Die. I have two pages of poorly photocopied instructions, undated, which refer to a non-existent die, but when I bought it, it came with a perspex die.
As I say, this is undated, but from the quality of the instructions, I suspect it may be from around the 70s....
El Mystico
 
Posts: 879
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Leamington Spa

Postby Philippe Billot » 08/31/11 10:59 AM

Ad in Genii November 1963

DAI'S MENTAL DIE DAI VERNON

Performer displays six cards, alternately face up and face down on the table. Performer writes a prediction and seals it in an envelope.

Spectator tosses an invisible die. Before spectator mentions the number he is supposed to have rolled, Magician lets him read the prediction and it is 100 per cent right.

As are all of Dai's items this is good - anyone can do it, and it works. All you get is two pages of instructions six ungimmicked cards, and an idea.

If you like close up work (and who doesn't) this is something to stick in your coat pocket. $2.00. The Elders, P.O. Box 3900, Dallas 8, Texas.
Philippe Billot
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: PARIS - FRANCE


Return to Close-Up Magic