raise rise

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Guest » 02/16/03 07:15 PM

Hi I was wondering if anyone here can do ray kosby's raise rise. It looks really good, but it is hard as hell to due (for me at least) because of the ambitious riser move.

thanks
Amir
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/16/03 07:44 PM

I think I've only seen one person beside Ray Kosby who can do "Raise Rise" well--but can't recall who. Everyone else that I've seen attempt it simply cannot get it to look good. Too many misses, or the cards don't come out far enough, or at all.
It has to be one the most difficult card sleights ever invented.
I recommend you buy Ray Kosby's card video from Meir Yedid so you can see, in detail, how to do it properly. I shot the tape, so I know it's taught properly.
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Postby Guest » 02/16/03 08:09 PM

I saw Earl Nelson do a beautiful rising card effect at the Castle a short while ago. A friend of mine said that it was Raise Rise, but I'm not familiar enough with Kosby's routine to say for sure; maybe it was a "variation." I wonder if Nelson's rising card will be in his book that just came out. In any event it's always a pleasure to watch Earl Nelson perform!
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/16/03 08:10 PM

Earl Nelson was probably performing his version of "On the Up and Up," which is based on the same move as "Raise Rise" (Fred Robinson's "Ambitious Riser" from Pabular). Earl Nelson's handling appears in "Richard's Almanac." :)
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Postby Pete McCabe » 02/16/03 11:24 PM

I've seen Chad Long do Raise Rise and it's a thing of beauty.

I've also seen Paul Wilson do it extremely well.

Counting Ray that's either three or four, depending on who Richard was referring to.
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Postby Guest » 02/17/03 12:36 AM

When I saw Earl Nelson lecture in Buffalo he was using Futagawa's move to cause the card to visibly rise up the deck.

Cheers,
Rich
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Postby Ian Kendall » 02/17/03 03:10 AM

I remember sitting with Wilson a few years ago and he showed me several routines based on the move.

I seem to remember he used it to follow up Elevator from the Kenner book.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Bill Mullins » 02/17/03 11:40 AM

Alain Nu does Raise Rise extremely well.
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Postby Guest » 02/17/03 12:52 PM

Hi I have seen a chap in Glasgow do the raise rise
very well maybe Richard Knows him Marc Caplan?
LENNIE
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Postby Guest » 02/19/03 10:58 AM

I do Raise Rise Pretty good. Maybe it helps to be left handed, and do magic right handed. hehe

^_^

Tony
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Postby Pete McCabe » 02/19/03 12:04 PM

Rich Kameda:

Futagawa's move? I'm not familiar with this. Any further info or references will be appreciated.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/19/03 03:08 PM

The move is not Futagawa's--it is Chris Kenner's "Shifty," which Gary Oulette published in his book "The Pass." Kenner's published method for "Shifty" held the deck in the same grip as used for the SWE Shift, which Kenner used to have an outjogged card rise to the top by repeatedly shifting small groups of cards from the top of the deck to the bottom ala Geoff Latta's work. The deck, when held in this sideways position, is more visible when working stand-up venues. "Shifty" fakes this because you do NOT do any Passes. The card itself is slipped out of the deck and then back in, only at a higher point. Kenner also worked out a method where the deck was held in the same direction as normal dealing position, but he did not publish it.
Shigeo Futagawa reinvented Kenner's unpublished method on his own. It's an obvious idea when you read "Shifty": hold the deck in normal position. So, that's the history of this sleight.
"Raise Rise" is similar to its antecedants in effect only. Its method, aside from the fact that it's done with one hand, is entirely different from anything anyone did before.
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Postby Raj Madhok » 02/19/03 03:19 PM

Futagawa's "Elevator Card" can be found in The Lecture Notes of Shigeo Futagawa, dated 1997.
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Postby Guest » 02/25/03 07:50 PM

The Futagawa/shifty from dealing grip move is really stunning. The raise rise also looks fabulous, but for the effort to effect, I think that shifty is the way to go. Also, what about Aarons Fishers version which was in Genii recently, and the ripple, which I think was in Genii a year or so ago?

DJM
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Postby Guest » 02/26/03 12:52 PM

I've been using Aaron Fisher's handling of the visible ambitious card, Ambitious Graduate, for about a month now. While it's not something that I do for everybody, as it is so subtle the audience has be attentive and sober to appreciate it, when the conditions are right it brings some seriously cross-eyed looks from people. Jaws open, head tilted, Cant believe Im seeing this reactions. And, unlike Raise Rise, I didn't have to develop carpal tunnel syndrome to perform it.

Zech Johnson
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Postby Pete Biro » 02/26/03 05:37 PM

Would someone please describe Raise Rise? Somehow I seem to have missed it...
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Postby Guest » 02/26/03 06:58 PM

If you go to Magicsmith.com then go to video demos you can see raise rise under R.

Noah Levine
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 02/26/03 07:45 PM

Originally posted by NoahLevine:
... video demo[]...raise rise
Can this one handed card rise be done with the selection face up?
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Postby Guest » 02/26/03 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Originally posted by NoahLevine:
[b]... video demo[]...raise rise
Can this one handed card rise be done with the selection face up?[/b]
Ok, I hadda pipe in on this one eventually....(warning, rant follows)....

I don't know the method (although I have a pretty good guess), but I'd bet that you can't do raise rise with a face up card unless you have dupes. Signed card? Forget it. And without a signed card, I wouldn't bother doing an ambitious routine.

Shifty et al, are solutions that are exactly what the spectator thinks you might be doing (i.e., yanking it out and shoving it back in higher up). It may look good from the right angle, but even if they can't see it happening, they'll think they know what you're doing, and worse, they'll be right. No one can think that with the original method. It's simply not possible, and easy to make sure they know that.

Finally, Fisher's method is different from the original only in technical minutiae until the end (this cover pass vs that cover pass; the same thing is essentially happening) but he loses the the strongest part of the trick, the finale. The last rise happens with the card pushed in square with the deck, and he has to do a double to show it on top. How is this different from a thousand other ambitious card sequences?

In the original version, the spectator holds the signed, face-up card as it visibly melts up through the pack to the top. You pause a beat, lower the deck away from the card, and they are left holding their face-up card, signature staring them in the face. You can't do that with any of these methods.

Pardon the proud poppa, but I still think the original is the best. So far, anyway.

End rant.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/26/03 09:42 PM

Geoff, that really doesn't qualify as a rant.
"Raise Rise" consists of doing Fred Robinson's "Ambitious Riser" move repeatedly with cards you've angled jogged for the purpose. Once the next card up has been outjogged, the lower card is pulled flush with the left first finger. Of course it must be done face down.
The fact that it isn't signed isn't an issue when Ray Kosby does it because it looks so absolutely, perfectly clean. For HIM it is the perfect method.
For YOU, your original method with the Pass is the perfect method.
I don't know what the perfect method would be for me, since I couldn't do "Raise Rise" if you put a gun to my head, and even though I can do lots of different passes, I have never been able to master one while a card is sticking out the front end of the damn deck!
THAT is the end of MY rant!
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Postby Guest » 02/26/03 10:14 PM

Ok Richard, I'll try ranting again. (I must be out of practice.)

You don't think that the ability to do the effect with a signed, face-up card is better than with an unknown, face-down card? I mean, if you could do either with the same amount of effort, which would you choose?

And what about the rest of my points, particularly about the spectator's perception of the method, as well as the ending?

I think these methods, while they may be ingenious, fix what isn't broke. And from what I hear, raise rise is harder than doing a pass with a card sticking out of the deck.

The point is, my original method (for, dare I say it, my original effect) has advantages that none of the later methods has, and has none of their disadvantages. so far, I haven't seen or heard anything that would dissuade me from that point of view.

If only you could see me stamping my feet as steam spewed out of my ears as I wrote that.

Oh well.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Bill Duncan » 02/26/03 11:28 PM

Originally posted by Geoff Latta:
...I'd bet that you can't do raise rise with a face up card unless you have dupes. Signed card? Forget it. And without a signed card, I wouldn't bother doing an ambitious routine.
It is possible to use a signed card and a duplicate. I do it all the time.

When handling a card the signature needn't be visible at all times and since the card is signed an audience (even an audience of magicians) will not suspect a duplicate card is used.

Now if I could only do Raise Rise...
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Postby Kevin Baker » 02/27/03 04:36 AM

Originally posted by Geoff Latta:

If only you could see me stamping my feet as steam spewed out of my ears as I wrote that.

[/QB]
Mr Latta,

Perhaps while you are in rant mode, I might persuade you to explicate on your methods a little more...

For example, referring to the effect "Deadlier Than The Male", what prompted your choice of pass for each the various phases?

Regards

Kevin
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Postby Guest » 02/27/03 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:
It is possible to use a signed card and a duplicate. I do it all the time.
But not face-up, right? The first two rises (rises?) could be face up, but what about the last one? No way I know of.

You see my point? Each of these methods has some kind of compromise or disadvantage that the original doesn't have. Whether these are deal-killers or not is a matter of personal taste. Whether they exist is not.

Ok, I think I'm all done now.

Maybe.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Charlie Chang » 02/27/03 06:24 AM

It might be interesting to note that I have done Raise Rise on and off since the early nineties and have discovered several interesting facts about this move.

First of all, it is extremely elusive. even when I am working with a good deck and am on top of the move it still goes wrong from time to time (although usually someone asks me to do it out of the blue without a moments practise).

Secondly, lay people just don't dig it as much as magicians. Perform Raise Rise then do the bent card - I know which one they will remember.

In actual fact, Ray Kosby's ingenious rising card opens up many more practical ideas which I now use regularly. Most of these ideas are unpublished as yet but a couple of the ideas I stumbled upon independently were much the same as Ray's applications. One of the best of these can be found in Ray's notes.

For example, I have an effect called the Imagination Card which is one of the strongest things I do plus I use the move for a colour change regularly.

Another point - I have always placed the card directly to the bottom of the deck rather than near the bottom. If the card is on the bottom the first rise is absolutley clear - if it starts somewhere in the deck the rise is difficult to perceive until the next one occurs.

It is interesting that Geoff Latta is involved in this discussion. I also have a variation of his excellent effect "Deadlier Than The Male" from "Spectacle". I use his final phase but changed the other two. In fact the opening phase in my handling is a super-clear application of Raise Rise (this handling is not in print but a video of it is on The Second Deal).

I would like to contest one point made by Mr Latta regarding shifty. Shifty is an absolutely invisible (done correctly) way of making a card rise visibly to the top with a small, natural, cover. Mr Latta contests that the audience may guess what you are doing, even if they can't see it. This is true but - how does that differ from the audience making the same assumption with a different method? Even if their theory is wrong, if they accept it you are doomed.

Incidentally the last rise for shifty uses a different method and may be performed slowly and in a such a manner that it dismisses the idea that the card is being removed and re-inserted.

I think Raise Rise is an excellent effect for the right audience. More importantly it sets you up with a utility sleight that has many other applications.

It only takes a year or two to learn....
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Postby Guest » 02/27/03 07:05 AM

Originally posted by R P Wilson:
....I would like to contest one point made by Mr Latta regarding shifty. Shifty is an absolutely invisible (done correctly) way of making a card rise visibly to the top with a small, natural, cover. Mr Latta contests that the audience may guess what you are doing, even if they can't see it. This is true but - how does that differ from the audience making the same assumption with a different method? Even if their theory is wrong, if they accept it you are doomed.
As I pointed out earlier, it is not only possible, but easy to prove to the audience that you are not removing and reinserting the card. They can, for instance, stare directly at the left side of the deck, right at the juncture of the card and the deck while the card rises and see that it is not removed and reinserted. I haven't seen Shifty, but I cannot imagine that this is the case with it, i.e., that that method can be disproven and eliminated from the spectator's mind.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/27/03 09:03 AM

Shifty requires that both hands be raised and then lowered for cover. It is impossible to do with hands motionless.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 02/27/03 11:25 AM

Geoff Latta:

In the original version, the spectator holds the signed, face-up card as it visibly melts up through the pack to the top. You pause a beat, lower the deck away from the card, and they are left holding their face-up card, signature staring them in the face.
Forgive me for not keeping up, but this is the original version of what?

Pete
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Postby Guest » 02/27/03 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:
Forgive me for not keeping up, but this is the original version of what?

Pete
Having a card visibly rise to the top of the deck while protruding from it.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Guest » 02/27/03 07:21 PM

Regarding the signed last card making the rise to the top. Is having the signed card palmed, and doing a colorchange a solution? It does leave the deck dirty ( full of signed duplicates) and it takes away from the one handed aspect, but in practice, it may work. Just a pipe dream

DJM
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Postby Guest » 02/27/03 10:31 PM

Mr. Latta,

Do you have any thoughts on the difference between doing the rise one-handed (ie. Raise Rise) or with two-hands (ie. your original technique)?

Personally, I use your method.

~Jason
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Postby Guest » 02/27/03 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Baker:
For example, referring to the effect "Deadlier Than The Male", what prompted your choice of pass for each the various phases?

Regards

Kevin
A variety of reasons. One, the first (cover pass) rise can be done well ahead of the apparent rise effect, giving plenty of time to set the stage for the first bit of magic. Two, the second rise (wrist turn) happens on the offbeat, while you are apparently still in display mode and just before they think you are ready to do anything. It also helps the first rise by showing how far from the bottom the card has moved. Three, the last one (fast pass) only has to move a few cards, making a fast pass very easy to do.

These things make it less daunting for those whose pass technique isn't dead solid perfect.

I also published it that way to establish to establish in print the different ways to handle it, so I wouldn't have to read "Fred Mertz has discovered you can do this with a cover pass! Hooray!" the next day.

Personally, I vary the passes I use for the effect to suit the performing conditions.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Guest » 02/28/03 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Jason Tang:
Mr. Latta,

Do you have any thoughts on the difference between doing the rise one-handed (ie. Raise Rise) or with two-hands (ie. your original technique)?

Personally, I use your method.

~Jason
Frankly, I don't know if it matters. The audience has likely never seen the effect before. They're not going to go "why did he use two hands instead of one", or whatever. They aren't aware of conditions in the same way we are.

That doesn't mean conditions don't affect them. But we need to make choices regarding which conditions are important and which are either not important, or are less important.

It is possible to use a one handed pass for the effect, but the shade required would probably cancel the benefits.

For most of the effect, the deck is held in one hand. That they come together now and then may or may not have any meaning for the spectators. Unless, of course, you give it meaning. Say, with a riffle. But then laymen are as likely to ascribe the rise to the riffle as they are to having your hands together.

But there are some things that definite do affect their perception of the effect. One of those things is that they are dead sure, all the way through, that that rising card is singular, unique. That the face up card (identity proof 1) with their highly visible, unique signature plastered all over it (identity proof 2) never leaves their sight for even an instant. That's what proves it's rising. To have the card rise face down is essentially using duplicates, without the strength of actually using duplicates (i.e., identity proof).

Another thing that has a definite effect, that in fact I think is absolutely crucial, is that you cancel out the most obvious method they will come up with, i.e., "somehow, he's yankin' it out and stickin' it in up higher." And trust me, that is what they'll think if you don't cancel it out.

Finally, the meat of the trick, the first couple of rises, (is that a word? No.) seems to me to promise the spectator, psychologically, that the final effect will be completed in as magical-looking a way as the ones that led up to it as well as being a logical continuation of it. So, to have the card visibly rise up the side of the deck, almost to the top, then have it pushed flush and secretly and not visibly go the rest of the way, seems like a cheat. It feels wrong. And it should. You're following a stronger effect with a weaker one, as well as one that is not artistically copacetic with the previous effect.

I wouldn't give up those three things if the result was that I could do the trick with the deck on the table while I was ten feet away, let alone without the right hand.

Ok, it's late, I'm rambling, but I hope I've made some kind of point.

If not, well, tomorrow is another day.

Best,

Geoff

P.S. There are things I like about the Fisher handling, and I have now seen Mr. Kosby do raise rise on web video and it looks good. But the card needs to be differentiated from the pack somehow. An odd-backed card, do it with a face-up deck and a face-down card, something. Ok, I think I've beaten this dead horse enough.
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Postby Guest » 04/01/03 02:41 PM

I have found it easier to learn this move one handed by positioning my hand further up on the deck so my pinky has to really stretch to get the corner of the card.

Previously, my pinky started relaxed and then got twisted into impossible positions and I just couldn't do the move.

However, I can now do the move (very sloopy still) by using this idea.
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Postby Guest » 04/18/03 08:03 AM

I believe this is turning into a discussion based upon the views of magicians. Consider the effect in question. A selected, signed card is outjogged for half its length near the bottom of the deck. With one shake it rises near the middle of the pack. Then near the top... then it becomes the actual top card. This is a powerful effect for any lay audience, regardless if the selection is face up or face down or even signed.

In fact-- I believe Raise Rise is really an overkill effect on it own. While it is visually stunning, why would a performer go to such lengths to perfect this illusion? To a lay audience, if a card is placed into the middle of the deck, and repeatedly comes to the top under impossible circumstances, it's considered to be a miraculous feat, nonetheless. The act of doing Raise Rise is like... using a hammer and nails for a job that a stapler can do. It's redundant and unnecessary. In my opinion, it's an effect made for magicians--

I used to do the Raise Rise effect. It took me nearly three years+ to truly perfect. After six months of inconsistent practice, I can't say that I'm still extremely good at it. While I do appreciate the performers who can execute it flawlessly, I think laypeople see it as eye candy more than magic. They also don't appreciate the practice put into the routine. I think a reason why magicians like this illusion so much, is because they realize how difficult it is to perform. Laymen don't.

I'm not attempting to put down the intelligence of laymen, nor am I devaluing the impact of Raise Rise, I'm just restating a reminder that we all seem to forget at times. We should take the audience into consideration. Here, we discussed whether or not the card should be face up, face down, or signed... quite frankly... I wouldn't even care.

RT
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/18/03 08:24 AM

Laymen never appreciate the practice you put into a routine if you are a good magician. Magical things should just seem to happen in your hands, unless you're one of those people who bill yourself as a "sleight of hand artist," in which case you join the folks who like to display sleights to spectators in a way that lets the audience KNOW something that took ten years to learn has occurred. That may get your rocks off, but it's bad magic. When "Raise Rise" is done properly, the card seems to visually jump like magic. When Latta's version is done properly, the card seems to jump like magic. The problem with the "Shifty" type handlings is that they require a large movement of the hands to cover the sleight--so large that the magical effect of the card jumping up a few cards in the deck is minimized by the larger movement of the hands. A MINIMAL movement of the hand, or hands, will allow the small movement of the card to have greater visual impact. There should be NO sense in the mind of the spectator that you have done ANYTHING, or that you've practiced this 10,000 times.
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Postby rkosby » 09/27/04 11:11 PM

Am I too late to put in my two cents?

If I add up the pros and cons I figure it this way.

Raise Rise
----------------
Pros
One handed.
Signed

Cons
Face down
There are times when people want to peek at the outjogged card
It's difficult
Not in the spectators hands
========================

Latta Rise
------------
Pros
Face up
Signed
In the spectators hands

Cons
Two hands
It's difficult

Geoff's method has more pros. It's definitely better. I wish I could do the pass as good as Geoff and Richard. I would be trying Geoff's method out regularly.

Sorry about making up my own title for your method Geoff. I didn't know what you named it.

I agree that holding the deck with two hands doesn't raise enough suspicion to reduce the impact of the effect. Though it doesn't look natural in my opinion. It's also a slight deviation from the way we would like to see the effect if we could. But it's no big deal. The pass method looks great.

Also, I agree with R Paul Wilson's opinion that the card should start at the bottom of the deck. I've tried to do it that way but the damn card on the bottom keeps jamming up when I try to push it in.

As for laymen reactions, I'm happy with the reaction. It's the only moment when I perform the ambitious card where people silently look at each other to make sure everyone saw what they saw, or they cuss. I also like it because of it's distinctive look. If a laymen sees another magician do the ambitious card they still like to see it when I perform the trick. I think they remember differences.

Ambitious card is the trick that laymen request the most from me. I always figured that a big reason was because of Raise Rise. Maybe it's the most requested trick for any magician that doesn't do the Invisible Deck, or sponge balls.

I tried working out a way to satisfy the audience's urge to peek at the outjogged in Raise Rise. I tried flashing it "accidentally" when it's near the top. The method involved doing the rise as my hand is raised to "accidentally" expose the card. I then reversed the move as the hand comes down again. The timing has been too difficult for me so far.

Anyway it's good to read everyone's thoughts.

Ray
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Postby Guest » 09/29/04 04:57 PM

I have hypothisised a way to sort of "cheat" this move.

If your familiar with the 'Exchange deck' a few modifications (perhaps a reworking of the gimmick if you need to) will alow for a non-sleight of hand method of the effect.

It would only work once, but it would be very clean.

Just a thought.
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Postby rkosby » 09/29/04 08:55 PM

I never heard of an exchange deck. Who makes it?

I heard of one person who made a mechanical version that worked. I don't think he ever manufactured it though.

The only mechanical version I've seen is Gaeton Bloom's.

I thought maybe a haunted pack could be made into a mechanical version easily. I never tried it though.

Ray
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Postby Guest » 09/29/04 08:59 PM

The exchange deck would be ablied in the same way that a haunted deck would.

It is a deck that allows you to put a card or cards half way into the deck and in the process switch them for another card or packet of cards.
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