Original Card Control to the Top

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 24th, 2011, 2:05 pm

How would you compare you control with the Ovette Master Move (also called Kelly Bottom Placement) when done off the top rather than the bottom of the pack?
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 24th, 2011, 2:41 pm

What you're doing is an application of an old palm from the center of the deck into the left hand by Tenkai.

I would not have thought it could be used to bring a card to the top that smoothly or quickly, but you do it very well.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby BrianB2 » July 24th, 2011, 3:10 pm

Looks more like an inferior variation of the Marlo-Thompson Bluff Pass to me.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 24th, 2011, 3:23 pm

I can see why you might think that, but there are at least two of the demonstrations where it seems clear that the top half is being placed on top of the bottom half.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby BrianB2 » July 24th, 2011, 3:43 pm

And, Richard, when done expertly, the same illusion is accomplished with the Marlo-Thompson pass.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 24th, 2011, 3:57 pm

Well, I don't agree with that.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby BrianB2 » July 24th, 2011, 4:07 pm

Well, I will revise my comment.

When done expertly, and I have seen Frank Thompson do his bluff pass, granted many years ago in my youth, I will state that any expertly done bluff pass is far superior to this technique.

Howie Schwarzman also has an expert bluff pass technique, complete with sound effect. (I am sure you know that.)

So, for my revision, in my opinion, a good bluff pass is superior to the technique exhibited on the video.

I stand by my original post that this is an inferior technique/method.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 24th, 2011, 4:13 pm

Thanks for posting the video - Jerry Andrus might have enjoyed that very much.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby BrianB2 » July 24th, 2011, 6:10 pm

sworn lip(s) wrote:2 cents on BrianB2s comments. Your feedback is perfect for my variation on the Bluff Pass. What I am doing is controlling a selection to the top with deck in same sequence order. Unlike the Bluff Pass, the selection has to be removed to be bluffed at least 2nd from the top. With my control, there is not only no doubt that there are two equal haves separated at the placement, but there is no covert hand actions to hide the bluff. Also to note...if you are performing with multiple selections and want to quickly have cards riffled to a stop and peeked from hand....once again, all selections are on top with minimal hand motion before the trick begins.



Why do I care if the deck is in same sequence order?

"Unlike the Bluff Pass, the selection has to be removed to be bluffed at least 2nd from the top."

Huh?

"With my control, there is not only no doubt that there are two equal haves separated at the placement, but there is no covert hand actions to hide the bluff."

Are you familiar with the Marlo-Thompson pass that I referenced? There is no doubt that two halves are separated in that move. And, there are no covert actions.

Watch your own video and pay attention to your left thumb.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Edward » July 24th, 2011, 7:07 pm

Very nice.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 24th, 2011, 7:30 pm

Let's not get mixed up talking about two completely different sleights.

The Marlo-Thompson Bluff Shift is a way of secretly cutting the deck. The sleight under discussion is a single card control to the top of the deck.

Let's not blur the discussion.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 24th, 2011, 7:49 pm

Richard, did you get to see Jerry Andrus demonstrate his Sidewinder? He visited NYC and made it to the Saturday gathering one weekend between the days of the Governor and Reubens Deli - I believe it was upstairs at a Dosanko.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 24th, 2011, 7:57 pm

Yes, I filmed Jerry Andrus doing virtually all of his material: I directed the Andrus tapes which Meir Yedid sells.

I don't recall the Sidewinder Shift being the same as the sleight discussed here. Is it?
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 24th, 2011, 8:09 pm

whoops - just had a look on YouTube - Panoramic shift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6xhgXsMkMI

don't mind the extra deck rotation and card spring at the end :)

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 24th, 2011, 8:16 pm

I don't understand, Jon: this move is not the Panoramic Shift, either.
The card is not injogged.
The card is not moved by the right thumb.

What it is, is the action of the Lowey Palm with an instant reverse action, during which the upper half of the deck is inserted between the moving card and lower half.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 24th, 2011, 8:39 pm

Oh okay, on that level of detail. Silly me I clocked it as an Ovette Master Move done off the top of the packet, but using the thumb instead of the fingers to drive the card.

Where's the Lowey sleight in print? Guess yours truly needs to learn more about who gets credit for what on this stuff.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Joe Pecore » July 24th, 2011, 8:50 pm

There is a description of the Lowey Palm in Magicana for Genii November, 1967 (on Ask Alexander http://askalexander.org/displaypdf.cgi?pid=1722960 for those with a Genii Subscription)

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 24th, 2011, 9:12 pm

Jon: do you have Stars of Magic? Vernon uses the Lowey Palm in "Travellers."

Lowey Palm: Deck is held face down in the left hand, farther forward than normal dealing position. Left thumb pivots top card all the way down until it lines up with the left palm. Right hand provides the cover as it comes over to take the deck by its outer end.

Vital point is the position of the inner left corner of the deck at the start (pivot point) and the right-hand cover (which may be Vernon's).
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 25th, 2011, 12:48 am

Don't know the Roger Smith move.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Bill McFadden » July 25th, 2011, 10:16 pm

Howard Schwarzman and Bob White (and I think Jon R.) dig the Loewy Palm. Hard to argue such endorsements. Me, I'm partial to LH palming top or bottom.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Philippe Billot » July 26th, 2011, 7:38 am

Who know why Jean Hugard didn't know in 1936 that the "Hugard Palm" described in Card Manipulations no. 5 (1936) was the Loewy Palm and who know why Charlie Miller in Genii 1967 November wrote it the "Lowey Palm"?

Subsidiary question : Who was the first to discover that The Discoverie of Witchcraft was the first book in which magic tricks were explained?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Joe Pecore » July 26th, 2011, 8:03 am

Philippe Billot wrote:...who know why Charlie Miller in Genii 1967 November wrote it the "Lowey Palm"?


It seem to be a common typo. Did you notice in the table of contents for that Genii it says "THE LOWLY PALM AS IT SHOULD BE DONE"
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Philippe Billot » July 26th, 2011, 8:22 am

No, I didn't notice this. Another common typo?

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Joe Pecore » July 26th, 2011, 8:32 am

Or rather, his last name has been spelled both ways.

It is "Loewy" in his Obit in the Linking Ring September 1933, but "Lowey" in Greater Magic.

It seems to appear more commonly as Loewy within the Sphinx in the 1920s.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Joe Pecore » July 26th, 2011, 8:41 am

Prof. Loewy was also a stamp collector: http://www.auspostalhistory.com/articles/399.shtml
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 26th, 2011, 1:05 pm

Great find, Joe! Anyone who wants to know more about Morris Loewy should definitely click on the link.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 26th, 2011, 2:48 pm

SL, what advantage do you find using your thumb to move the card rather than pulling it with the left fingers?

FWIW there are some handlings of the Hofzinser type II (reverse) pass where you trump the cut as you assemble the pack by pulling/levering the entire bottom half of the pack to the vertical then replace it on top under a gentle squaring action.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 26th, 2011, 5:52 pm

The left hand action with the thumb is very nice. The weak spot is having to straddle the outer end of the upper half with the right fingers because the thumb gets in the way. But you'll figure out how to get around that. :)
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 26th, 2011, 7:19 pm

sworn lip(s) wrote:The name is Robert by the way...sworn lip(s) is an anagram for R.P. Wilson...yep my real name is Robert Paul Wilson....Im just not Scottish. Anyway, Im not sure how you would pull it with the left fingers and what that advantage would be...


Hi Robert.

Thanks, will PM about details of Joe Ovette's sleight and the old Hofzinser pass.

Please accept my kudos for both developing a control you find useful and for bringing it here to discuss. That's a path that can lead to excellence in this craft.

Jon

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Oli Foster » July 26th, 2011, 7:24 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:Who know why Jean Hugard didn't know in 1936 that the "Hugard Palm" described in Card Manipulations no. 5 (1936) was the Loewy Palm and who know why Charlie Miller in Genii 1967 November wrote it the "Lowey Palm"?

Subsidiary question : Who was the first to discover that The Discoverie of Witchcraft was the first book in which magic tricks were explained?

Thanks in advance.


Philppe, I can't answer re the Loewy palm but with reference to your subsidiary question, the stupid answer would be 'the first reader who made it that far'. Another, more famous, reader was James I of England, who acknowledges and shuns Scot's explanation of magic in his own book, Daemonologie, published 13 years after Discoverie in 1597.

James slating Scot gives some credence to a motivation for burning all retrievable copies, due to Scot's protestant expose disagreeing with James' catholic 'divine right' and zealous occult obsession. However, I've been told that copies probably weren't burnt and that this is likely no more than a magician's urban legend.

When it comes to anyone noteworthy later realising about the explanation of magic tricks, the interesting thing is that there don't appear to have been any subsequent editions before the Rodker edition of 1930. This would suggest that, save a few individuals, possibly including magicians, who had read a copy of the original text and attached significance to this section, its contents wasn't widely known about prior to 1930 - unless one of those privy to the original did indeed mention it somewhere.

The Rodker edition was published with an introduction by Montague Summers, who was a reverend with perhaps an equally unhealthy interest in the occult, having got this published alongside basically all of the early books on demonology. Although he was chiefly interested in the occult aspect of the book, he does make reference to the incongruous nature of the seemingly trivial and irrelevant section on juggling, given the rest of the book is devoted to lampooning a belief in witches. If nobody else had made similar comments in that long interim, this would make Summers a reasonable modern suspect.

Is anyone aware of a reference to Discoverie in a book on magic history that was published prior to 1930? And should we put all this in a separate thread given that it doesn't have anything to do with Robert's fantastic card control?

Cheers

Oli

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 26th, 2011, 8:55 pm

Jean Hugard was abysmal at giving proper credit. His Card Manipulation series begins with sleights by Cliff Green for which no credit is given. The fact that he wouldn't give proper credit for the Lowey Palm is not at all surprising.
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Hatch » July 27th, 2011, 1:08 am

Oli Foster wrote:When it comes to anyone noteworthy later realising about the explanation of magic tricks, the interesting thing is that there don't appear to have been any subsequent editions before the Rodker edition of 1930.


Perhaps I misunderstand the above, but according to the Wikipedia entry on Scot's DISCOVERIE:

"In 1651 the book was twice reissued in London in quarto by Richard Cotes; the two issues slightly differ from each other in the imprint on title-page. Another reissue was dated 1654. A third edition in folio, dated 1665, included nine new chapters, and added a second book to The Discourse on Devils and Spirits. In 1886 Brinsley Nicholson edited a reprint of the first edition of 1584, with the additions of that of 1665."

That does not include foreign translations of Scot's book, nor the many derivative works that plagiarized his legerdemain section.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Philippe Billot » July 27th, 2011, 3:10 am

Thanks Oli and Richard.

More accurately, my subsidiary question was :

Who is (or was) the first magician who realizes that the "Scot" was the first book which contains explanation of magic tricks ?

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 27th, 2011, 8:37 am

Philippe Billot wrote:More accurately, my subsidiary question was :

Who is (or was) the first magician who realizes that the "Scot" was the first book which contains explanation of magic tricks ?


Might that not be the folks he consulted who showed him the skittle trick, the work with small balls, coins etc?

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Philippe Billot » July 27th, 2011, 8:44 am

For instance, Ellis Stanyon quotes the Scot in his book "A Bibliography of Conjuring and Kindred Arts" published in 1899.

Do you know another magician/historian who quote the Scot before ?

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 29th, 2011, 9:28 pm

Yes, you're not hiding anything, but you're not holding the upper half of the deck in a natural manner. A weak point that you can overcome!
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Justin Wheatley » July 29th, 2011, 10:52 pm

Careful with that large, frightening swoop.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Steve Hook » January 7th, 2012, 8:38 pm

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about. Nice job, Robert.

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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 7th, 2012, 9:30 pm

Bingo! Looks great!
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Re: Original Card Control to the Top

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 6th, 2012, 9:04 pm

The control is looking good. Do you also have a multiple card transfer handling of that sleight?
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