The Classic Pass...

Discuss general aspects of Genii.

Postby Mr. K » 07/19/11 09:39 AM

Hello I am wondering why people go up n down when they do this pass? It look hideous! it looks like you did something shady, I have heard being out people say "he just did something fishy". That to me is embarrassing to my Art! I hope the people see this post & get over that bad habit! You are thinking you are smooth but there is nothing smooth as your hands go up n down even with misdirection this move is LAIM! I am sick of new magicians doing this move I see it with members of the Castle & older magicians. Please get over your bad habits ASAP! you are making the Art look kinda fake... I am about a little over a year now with this art & I know what looks good & looks bad & there are allot of magicians that do this classic awesome move LAIM! If you do not want to do what the art requires you to do go into a new art lets say volleyball or an art that is NOT MAGIC! Sorry to be hard on the Pass but it is a move you better study & do well or else you have ruined the art of Magic, & you kind of go in the category of internet wanna be magicians which has killed allot of trick... Make it a great day! & like I said get over you bad habits or better yet just leave our ART alone! I am not saying this move is a bad one all I am saying is you jerking your hands in an up n down motion makes the spectators look at one another & say he just did a SHADY move....
>Its Only MAGIC!!<
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/19/11 09:48 AM

The good news is that you can work on your own handling and technique to remove such tells. There will always be a flock of beginners and duffers doing what suffices.

Magic is one of the places dolts who offer unsolicited criticism and commentary seek refuge, unfortunately most often behind secrets everybody already knows. At least on the internet it's self evident that they are not to be taken seriously.
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Postby erdnasephile » 07/19/11 11:27 AM

The "up and down" movement you refer to can be done well or poorly as a cover for the pass. Geoff Latta was an example of the former.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/19/11 12:45 PM

The dipping of the hands has long been used by many people who do the Pass well. Just because you've seen some people do it poorly doesn't mean it's bad.

The first mention I've found of it in print is in Farelli's Card Magic in 1933.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 07/19/11 12:50 PM

Lame, surely?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/19/11 01:03 PM

What's lame?
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Postby Ian Kendall » 07/19/11 01:22 PM

"even with misdirection this move is LAIM"

"there are allot of magicians that do this classic awesome move LAIM"

Although, trying to analyse the pass (spelling and grammar notwithstanding) after being in magic for one year might be considered more worthy of the epithet...
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/19/11 02:41 PM

The original post's spelling is lame!
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Postby Mr. K » 07/19/11 04:19 PM

Ian Kendall Hello There I think we met @ the Magic Apple if Im not mistaking... I am not to make people mad but just want to warn those who try to do this up n down pass better! or drop it!!
>Its Only MAGIC!!<
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Postby Mike Rozek » 07/19/11 04:39 PM

Hi "Funkytek",

I have good and bad news for you.

First, the good:
You have identified something in other magician's work on the pass that you don't like, and therefore will work to eliminate in your own work on the move. Believe it or not, many new magicians never reach this point. Congratulations, you're on your way.

Now, for the bad:
As evidenced by the tone of your post above, you have no idea what to do with this information.

Before I give advice on the "bad" news, I'd like to point you to two sources where the covering move in question is described in print and performed on video by two acknowledged masters.

First, I encourage you to read John Carney's excellent description of the pass, the covering action and the thinking behind it in his wonderful book "The Book of Secrets". In my opinion, this is the best description in print about not only the mechanics of the move, but the many "principles of deception" that can be used to ensure it's successful execution. I can't recommend this book highly enough.

Next, I'd like to encourage you to watch Dave Williamson use the "offending" covering move on the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qazfii17EQ

Here, Dave uses the covering action, in combination with proper angle and verbal emphasis to execute the pass successfully on stage, in front of both a live audience and television cameras.

Finally, the more time you put into the move, I think you'll likely find that the technique of executing the move, while important, is *much* less important than the moments leading up to and immediately after it's execution. As Mr. Carney discusses in his excellent description, it's what gamblers often ask. "How do you get into it?" and "How do you get out of it?". If you're planning on robbing a bank after-hours, do you spend more time thinking about how to put the money in the bag, or figuring out a way to break into the bank and ensuring a successful get-away?

I'd like to encourage you to take your dislike of the covering action and do some research. What might you be missing? What sources might these other magicians be mis-interpreting? I like to think of the pass like a golf swing. There is no "perfect" motion, only the perfect motion for the moment. Mastering the mechanics requires the same discipline that golfers user to work on a swing, and it's a never-ending pursuit. Tiger woods still practices his golf swing. I've put years into the move, and learn something new about it frequently, making small adjustments along the way.

You mentioned that you're frequently at the Castle. I'm not sure who you are, but please feel free to approach me if you'd like my further thoughts on the move.

All the best,
Mike
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/19/11 06:17 PM

Interesting that no one has mentioned the top-card cover pass, which really covers the Classic Pass better than most anything else.
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Postby Mr. K » 07/19/11 06:49 PM

Mike I will look into the Carneys book I thank you for taking the time to write this.& that was done GREAT!! his pass was lightning!!!
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Postby Ian Kendall » 07/19/11 06:52 PM

"Interesting that no one has mentioned the top-card cover pass, which really covers the Classic Pass better than most anything else."

Probably because that's not what the discussion is about?
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Postby Steve Cobb » 07/19/11 06:52 PM

Harry, Which of your books is that described in?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/19/11 09:01 PM

Since Williamson has been brought up, it seems good to point out that David is CONSTANTLY practicing. If you see him walking around at a convention, he almost always has a deck of cards in his hands. You can't do the Pass if you don't practice like a crazed bastard.

And, yes, the Top-Card Cover Pass is very good for any trick that requires a card to be brought to second from the top, or if you can't do an excellent normal Pass.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 12:17 AM

"Probably because that's not what the discussion is about?"

Strange, seems to me that that's EXACTLY what the discussion is about.

I'm at my country home, Steve, and don't have my books here, so can't really answer your question. I do know that I taught it just a bit differently (More than a one-card cover) in Carnal Knowledge, originally in Quantum Leaps - re-written, etc., in The Classic Collection, Vol. 3. I know that, because it's an effect I use often. I'm pretty sure I've described it in other books. Perhaps someone will do the research for us?
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Postby mrgoat » 07/20/11 04:10 AM

Harry Lorayne wrote:"Probably because that's not what the discussion is about?"

Strange, seems to me that that's EXACTLY what the discussion is about.


No, it's about the classic pass.

The clue is that the thread title is "The Classic Pass"

HTH

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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 10:44 AM

Sorry, Damian, the Top-Card Cover Pass IS the Classic Pass - with just a "cover" added. If that isn't part of this discussion then my over 70 years involved in, and doing, card magic have been a waste. But, I doubt it - because the "clue" is THAT WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE CLASSIC PASS.

However, Ian and Damian, if my suggestion has caused confusion/harm/misinformation for anyone, I do humbly and sincerely apologize - and I'll let you two do the "teaching."
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/20/11 10:47 AM

I think including the Cover Pass in any discussion about the Pass is valid, so CUT IT OUT.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 10:57 AM

Thank YOU, Richard. Of course it's valid. What silliness.
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Postby mrgoat » 07/20/11 12:01 PM

No silliness, just trying to clarify for the OP that the classic pass, what he is asking about, is not EXACTLY the same as the cover pass.

Totally worth including it in the discussion, just worth noting it isn't "exactly" the same.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/20/11 12:27 PM

Funkytek wrote:Hello I am wondering why people go up n down when they do this pass? ...makes the spectators look at one another & say he just did a SHADY move....


The serious students will have read the "erdnase" text or works by Hofzinser's students or at least Vernon or Marlo or their students on the matter and will know not to do such things. The rest, the duffers and those who don't' care... IMHO not much one can do. There's a nice sentence in the "erdnase" text about moments where nothing seems to be happening that remains good advice on sleight of hand in general. Again there's not much to be done about those who don't care and it's unlikely that complaining here, among those who do tend to care, will do anything to help or convince the others as they are simply not reading, not here and ... don't care.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 12:45 PM

I guess it's according to how you look at it (askance?!). So far as I'm concerned the top-card cover pass IS exactly the Classic Pass - but with a "cover" added. But to make it all "right" and so as not to confuse anyone (as, it seems, I've confused YOU, Mr. Goat, and Ian)let me "clarify." For all of you who pay any attention at all to my posts, in this thread, or otherwise, the top-card cover pass that I wanted you to be aware of (just in case you weren't already) is not EXACTLY like the basic Classic Pass. Just as the double turnover is not EXACTLY like the double lift - had there been a thread about the double lift, and had I decided to mention the double turnover, obviously I would have had to "clarify." For some, anyway.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 07/20/11 12:57 PM

Hey, I'm not confused, and I've done my share of teaching the pass.

Ian
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 01:14 PM

Your original post - "Probably because that's not what the discussion is about?" after I mentioned the top-card cover pass, sure made it seem as if you WERE confused, since you obviously didn't see the connection.

If I misunderstood, I'm sorry. (Do you ever teach the top-card cover pass? I've only touched on it in one or another of my books - I rarely teach it personally - only if I'm asked.) Harry.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 07/20/11 01:26 PM

I think I've only taught the move once, and that was under duress. I don't care for it, I don't use it and because of those points I don't feel comfortable explaining it in the detail to which I am accustomed.

The thing with topics like this is that everyone's opinion is different, and completely subjective; it's impossible to have a 'right' or a 'wrong' way to do anything. For me, (and there's that phrase again) 90% of the time I will do a classic pass using attention direction (for those of us who dislike the word 'misdirection'). An invisible pass is any that is not seen, so if the spectators are not looking at the deck during the moment of the pass, so much the better.

Having said that, I realise that there are some effects that, strangely enough, demand that the focus is on the deck during the move, and that is where technique comes into play.

In the February 2009 MUM is wrote about the circle of focus that our eyes have, and that by keeping the action outside this area we get another layer of deception. I'd much rather concentrate on that than on a move that requires your hands to be together any longer than necessary.

Ian
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Postby mrgoat » 07/20/11 01:29 PM

Not at all confused. The addition of the cover card makes it *like* the classic pass, but not *exactly* the same.

I wanted to clarify for the OP that it isn't *exactly* the same move. There is another card added, making it inherently different.

Sorry you thought I was confused.

Now that is all cleared up, I think discussions of other passes, including the cover pass would be a great idea here.

I am enjoying the midnight shift at the moment, I saw Michael Vincent lecture and he used it during Card To Pocket. I find it very satisfying and actually MILES easier than The Classic Pass. A different move altogether, but depending on the situation, maybe easier for a beginner to start with. I only usually use a classic pass.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/20/11 01:44 PM

The Midnight Shift is a version of the Hofzinser (aka Herrmann) Pass, and is by its nature much simpler because it relies on cover rather than speed.

I have seen the normal Cover Pass done with virtually the same handling as a Pass, just by lifting the top card slightly. It's not a good way to do it, but it IS one way. The Jennings' handling is far more subtle and easier to do. I'll say again that the use of the Cover Pass should be determined by the effect being performed. If you place a card in the center of the deck, and are doing an Ambitious Card Routine, it's good to use a Cover Pass to bring it to second from the top. This positions the chosen card for a Double Lift (or Turnover) after which you can immediately make it return to the top again.

There is also a use for the Cover Pass in Jim Swain's classic "Vanishing Aces" routine that can only be accomplished using the Cover Pass.
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Postby Magic Fred » 07/20/11 02:52 PM

If you can contrive to establish a "Vernase" style break at the outer right corner, it facilitates a pretty nice handling of the cover pass.

The only "problem" a cover pass solves is the vulnerable corner of the deck at the base of the thumb, all the other requirements of timing, attitude, naturalness still apply.

As Richard says, the cover pass should be used when you specifically need the result of doing a pass under the top card, otherwise it offers nothing over a classic pass.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 03:05 PM

Again, I don't agree. Saying that the top-card cover pass offers nothing over a classic pass is so wrong! And, if I wanted to ONLY control a selected card - are you saying that doing the top-card cover, bringing it to second from top would be "terrible"? Why? It's 2nd-from-top, for God's sake - you mean you wouldn't know how to keep it under control from there? And if you believe that the "only problem, etc" the top-card cover solves is a "vulnerable corner" of the deck, you sure aren't taking advantage of it at all.
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Postby Magic Fred » 07/20/11 03:08 PM

Fair enough Mr Lorayne, agree to disagree and all that.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 03:08 PM

PS: I neglected to say - what it offers over a Classic Pass is - COVER! Boy, I must be getting senile - I fail to see why some don't understand that. It's the CLASSIC PASS, dammit, with the top card (or cards) covering, shading, hiding, the action that usually - for most, anyway - is NOT covered, shaded, hidden. Jeez!
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 03:11 PM

Yes, Magic Fred - I've said it, written it, probably thousands of times, so forgive the redundancy - to each his own!
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Postby Magic Fred » 07/20/11 03:12 PM

I see your point. But I would contend that all the other aspects of a properly executed classic pass negate the need for visual cover on the top of the deck.

I do see the advantages of a cover pass over a poorly executed classic pass.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/20/11 03:12 PM

Harry, I think the fact that there are many more people using a regular Pass rather than a Cover Pass speaks to the fact that it is partly the challenge of doing a Pass that is part of the enjoyment. Doing a Cover Pass, if that's one's attitude, is almost like cheating. I almost always use a regular Pass and rarely use Cover Pass, though I can do both with pretty much equal facility.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 03:44 PM

Richard: So, we've all been "cheating" all our magic lives! I can't agree that doing something easier is cheating. Sure, "challenges" are fine - at home alone - not when performing, etc., not in my opinion, anyway. But what you said - that you "can do both with pretty much equal facility" makes the point here, locks it in, at least it does for me. You don't NEED the top-card cover pass. Most, including me, do. Best - Harry. (PS: I agree that "many more people are using a regular Pass rather than a Cover Pass." The discussion here is - SHOULD THEY BE!! The answer is "No," certainly in my long experience. And I have the feeling that many who should be using it don't know about it. No?)
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/20/11 03:49 PM

Harry, you hit an issue there with the word "performing". Not everyone in this craft has a focus on performing.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 07/20/11 03:54 PM

I always thought that that was the main idea, the main goal, etc. If not "performing" - what?!
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Postby Magic Fred » 07/20/11 04:08 PM

I agree Mr Lorayne. Whilst I acknowledge Mr Townsend's point that there are hobbyists who gain satisfaction just from practicing and perfecting the moves, it is not the position I am coming from.

Coincidentally, I'm enjoying a re-reading of Star Quality at the moment. Good book.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/20/11 04:41 PM

Harry, you missed my point. Lots of card guys like to do moves for the pleasure of being able to do them, rather than having a goal of creating the best act possible to do for laymen.

People learn and do magic for different reasons.
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