The next Steve Forte?

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Postby Steve Bryant » 10/18/05 08:54 AM

With Simon Lovell and Steve Forte's books already available for those interested in cheating methods, add Penn Jillette's new How to Cheat Your Friends at Poker: The Wit and Wisdom of Dickie Richard.

Check Amazon for details and reviews.

From the flap:

Penn Jilletteentertainer and magician extraordinaire--knows poker. Not necessarily because of his own skill, though he has that in spades. Jillette knows poker because he knows Dickie Richards, a lifetime card player who has earned hundreds of thousands of dollars over more than thirty years of cheating at home poker games. Dickies wisdom, filtered through Penns showmans style, is distilled into this tidy volume.

This is not a book about how to play poker. Its about how to cheat, make money, and win big. Youll master the art of making friends just so you can gull them at cards, youll excel at marking cards and tossing the pot, and youll understand why the dealer should always win. Lousy with attitude, stylish with swagger, HOW TO CHEAT YOUR FRIENDS AT POKER delivers a true card-sharps tricks and tips, down to the last gambit.

HOW TO CHEAT YOUR FRIENDS AT POKER is the ultimate players handbook.
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Postby Brian Rasmussen » 10/21/05 10:08 AM

I saw this book at my Barnes and Noble yesterday and it seems too good to have on display where anybody (laymen) can pick up and learn some of these methods.
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Postby Guest » 10/24/05 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Brian Rasmussen:
I saw this book at my Barnes and Noble yesterday and it seems too good to have on display where anybody (laymen) can pick up and learn some of these methods.
I've seen the book. It's not a threat to either magic or gambling protection.

I've read reviews of Steve Forte's book by Jamy Ian Swiss and Michael Close, as well as reviews by real casino types.

They say that it's a 100% valid real-world gambling info with no [baloney.]Reviews, and my own examination of Lovell's book , suggest that Lovell has produced a book with about a 50-50 [baloney]/real-work ratio.

I'm afraid Penn\'s new book is also a hundred percent job. One hundred percent [baloney.]

Publisher's Weekly says "And if it's meant seriously, then the book itself is a cheat: when you're done with it, you still won't really know how to cheat at poker."

An Amazon customer said "If you want to learn how to palm cards, uncut a deck, deal from the bottom, the second or any other part of the deck this book is not for you. In fact, in the first chapter the book cuts through those lessons by recommending you to purchase "Expert at the card table" by Erdnase to learn all those moves as "he can teach you better than I ever could..""

There's nothing wrong with [baloney,] but remember that Forte is a world class game protection expert. Teller is a world-class, internationally famous expert in [baloney.] (Check out [Baloney!] , Season Two, for examples. )
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Postby Brian Rasmussen » 11/01/05 09:32 AM

Well I have been rightly corrected!! I did a quick scan on this book right off the shelf and by the topics apparently presented it seemed to cover lots of material that could be used to cheat. I see now that if I would have gone a bit deeper in the content I could have discovered the true intent. I guess it figures coming from Penn.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 11/01/05 10:06 AM

Originally posted by James in Toronto:
Teller is a world-class, internationally famous expert in [baloney.] (Check out [Baloney!] , Season Two, for examples. )
In this context, I think you meant Penn Jillette. I don't believe Teller had much to do with this book...
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Postby David Redfearn » 12/28/05 01:56 PM

Nice one James in Toronto, the real boys in the casino protection business, except IMO Mr Forte do not get involved with book's for magicians, they are out there doing it for real ! As you correctly state there is so much bull [censored], half of these people would last 2 min's with the casino MDs in USA or Europe.
I had dinner with a London boss [40 year' s service] who hired Steve Forte 25 years ago, that s the reputation you want. As I am sure Steve Forte would agree, casino protection changes , on a regular basis, or would he ? all the best David Redfearn. ;)
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/28/05 03:14 PM

Of course casino protection changes--technology evolves and people figure out new ways to use it. And, every once in a while, people do figure out new systems and ways to hustle.
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Postby Guest » 01/03/06 03:09 AM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Of course casino protection changes--technology evolves and people figure out new ways to use it. And, every once in a while, people do figure out new systems and ways to hustle.
does this mean that if i were to finally save up sufficient cash to purhcase Mr Forte's book by say, mid 2006, it would already be yester news?

No offence intended, just wanna know before i spend 200 bucks.

Thanks and appreciate any feedback.
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Postby Jason England » 01/03/06 03:29 AM

I think you'll be fine until mid-2006, but I wouldn't wait until the fall. It might be too late by then, and all the cheating methods that Forte wrote about may be obsolete.

Jason
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/03/06 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Jason England:
...It might be too late by then, and all the cheating methods that Forte wrote about may be obsolete.
Ah the time-value of money. How long does it take to tool up and properly use the methods described? What then is the return on investment for such data?
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Guest » 01/03/06 03:50 PM

As far as cheating goes the most effective presentation goes to David Malek on his new DVD Cheating at Hold'Em. It is an amazing work and I guess only one of three DVDs, two more to come. I can't even imagine some of what other cheats could be covered and I'm looking forward to them.
Steve V
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Postby Richard Hatch » 01/03/06 11:13 PM

Originally posted by Jason England:
I think you'll be fine until mid-2006, but I wouldn't wait until the fall. It might be too late by then, and all the cheating methods that Forte wrote about may be obsolete.
I expect all the books will be sold out long before then in any case...
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Postby Guest » 01/05/06 09:17 PM

I bought Penn's book and immediately knew I'd made a mistake. I like P&T a lot, and enjoy Penn's storytelling skills, but this book is painful to read! It is just sad and bitter and nasty. I don't buy Penn's line on why he put it out. I can only assume he thinks the whole thing is amusing. On some level it is, BUT if you are looking for the REAL thing... a book filled with stuff you never heard about and some that requires more practice than most magicians will do in their lifetimes, then buy the Steve Forte Book. Even if you are only going to do pesudo-real gambling demonstrations, the stuff in this book is so beyond what most people talk about....
By the way Richard, I'll be done with it in a few months....Thanks for lending it to me.
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Postby Guest » 01/10/06 12:45 PM

This book delivered exatly what I thought it would: a great story.

If you guys are buying this book to learn machanics, your nuts. Were magicians for gosh sakes, and we have so many good books and resources at our disposal.

If you bought this book to learn about gambling protection, again, your nuts. Tons of better resources.

This book is a cute read, containing some good stories and some interesting ploys (many of which work).

If you expected anything more your a noob.
:)
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/10/06 02:28 PM

Nordatrax: it's not "your," but "you're." You are contracting the words "you" and "are."
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Postby Guest » 01/10/06 06:52 PM

I also misspelled machanic and wrote were instead of we're, but you didnt mention those...

Playing favs are we richard?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/10/06 07:56 PM

hahaha--no "favs," just bleary-eyed from too much work.
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Postby Guest » 01/11/06 12:33 AM

bleary-eyed from "work" eh?

-makes drinky drinkey gesture-
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/11/06 09:21 AM

Sorry, but I'm pretty much a "no drinks" "no drugs" no nothing kind a guy.
I get my kicks from dark chocolate.
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Postby Guest » 01/11/06 11:22 AM

"dark chocolate" eh?

-makes drinky drinky gesture-

Im a milk chocolate kinda guy myself.

I just wanted to poing out, comparing the Penns book to fortes is like comparing apples to oranges.

casino gambling and house gambling are two very diffrent worlds.

One thing they talk about in the book is giving the player in the seat beside you a quick glance at your hand, let him bet accordningly, then swith your hand for one that takes the pot.

he has two options:
1) grumble to himslef
2) admit he say your hand, and then you get to call him a cheat for looking, and mke fun of him for misseeing the cards.

You couldnt do that in a casino. it wouldnt fly.

the book contains some interesting anacdotes and soe ideas that WOULD fly in a house game.

dolla dolla bill yall
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Postby Guest » 01/14/06 08:28 AM

From the Back Cover

If youre in the game, youre either a fish or a shark. Rake it in at the next home poker game by learning the fine arts of:

--Marking Cards
--Bottom Dealing
--Rounding up a Game
--Using a Cold Deck
--Stashing Holdouts
--Palming a Shiner
--Cheat-Proofing Your Own Game

Hmmmm. Does this sound like I should expect just "a cute read?" The advertising for Penn's book implies that it contains more than just stories. I don't feel I made the initial comparison between Forte's and Penn's books; Penn (or his publisher's PR dept.) did.

Once purchased, the book recommends other standard sources to learn the required sleights to pull off the scams he describes. If I bought a book that is advertised as one that can teach me to become a successful race car driver, should I expect that book to suggest I buy another book to learn the basic driving skills I need to actually compete?

Finally, I didn't read Penn's book to learn to cheat in home games any more than I read Steve Forte's book to learn to cheat in a casino. I read them to learn 1.) tools that will improve the technical side of performance; 2.) knowledge that will improve the presentational side performance. I suspect a majority of folks on the Genii Forum have similar motivations. I hope my comments on both books assist others in deciding if either book is worth their time and money.

Mark
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 01/16/06 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Mark Phillips:
From the Back Cover

If youre in the game, youre either a fish or a shark. Rake it in at the next home poker game by learning the fine arts of:

--Marking Cards
--Bottom Dealing
--Rounding up a Game
--Using a Cold Deck
--Stashing Holdouts
--Palming a Shiner
--Cheat-Proofing Your Own Game

Reading this advertising - Does it imply that cheating is cool, money making, and something that one can get away with if I read this book?

It says nothing about the RISK if a person is caught cheating. And the only time cheat is used is in cheat proof.

Interesting advertising copy to sell a book to the public!
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Postby Richard Stokes » 01/23/06 06:15 AM

I must get hold of the Malek Hold'Em DVD .
In the meantime, can someone explain the bleeding obvious to me?
With Hold'Em, why does the dealer bother burning a card before the flop, the turn and the river?
Is it now an empty obligatory ritual?
How would it deter cheating?

And isn't Hold'Em more vulnerable to stacking than other forms of poker because the cheater can predict in advance the numerical position of the final critical communal cards?
Someone unexpectedly folding will have no impact on the prearranged stack.

And a follow-up question: Why are Poker cards bigger than Bridge cards?
Was this to make palming more difficult?
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Postby Temperance » 01/23/06 06:18 AM

Because you only hold 5 cards in poker, as apposed to the 13 needed in bridge...

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Postby Ian Kendall » 01/23/06 07:06 AM

The burn helps reduce the impact of marked cards. Without that, a player could see what the first card of the flop, and the turn and river cards were before they bet. This would be a huge advantage.

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Postby Richard Stokes » 01/23/06 05:18 PM

Re. why the dealer burns cards in hold'em poker:
The burn helps reduce the impact of marked cards. Without that, a player could see what the first card of the flop, and the turn and river cards were before they bet. This would be a huge advantage.

Thanks Ian, but if the dealer second-deals the 'discards', a marked system would still hold up.
So the standard burn procedures seem more like a ritual than a practical deterrent?
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Postby Jason England » 01/23/06 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Richard Stokes:
Thanks Ian, but if the dealer second-deals the 'discards', a marked system would still hold up.
So the standard burn procedures seem more like a ritual than a practical deterrent? [/QB]
No, it isn't "more like a ritual" than a practical deterrent. It is absolutely a practical deterrent. Most poker dealers can't deal seconds, the practice of burning the top cards takes up virtually no time at all, and it effectively conceals the the next card down until the betting round is finished.

Sounds pretty practical to me!

Of course, there are many ways around these burn card procedures, but that doesn't invalidate them, or reduce them to mere ritual.

Jason
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Postby Pete McCabe » 01/23/06 07:18 PM

You can buy a deck of marked cards. You can not buy a second deal. I've tried.
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