Karl Fulves on David Regal and the Sliding Shell

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Postby Ryan Matney » 01/19/08 10:50 PM

I just recieved the new issue of Karl Fulves's 'Prolix'. He has a very interesting bit of information regarding the sliding shell controversy as written about by David Regal in Genii. The history of this thing is very confusing to me...

I noticed in the same issue Mr. Regal accidentally credited 'Gemini Twins' to Martin Gardner. Looks like Karl nocticed it too!
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Postby Chad Barnard » 01/20/08 09:12 AM

Does he disprove/discredit Dusheck's claim to it?

Unfortunately, I didn't know about Prolix, I'm sending him a letter tomorrow to see if I can still get a subscription and/or back issues.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/20/08 09:59 AM

Karl essentially says that he came up with the idea of a shell with a partial rim. I don't see any reason not to believe him.

I have always felt that the idea of having a shell with a partial rim, so a coin can be slid out rather than dropped out, was an obvious idea.

As far as the Regal error on "Gemini Twins," something like this slipping through is the fault of the editor (that would be me), not the writer.
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Postby Ryan Matney » 01/20/08 10:11 AM

Easy mistake to make, Richard.
I knew both of you know it's Karl's routine when I read it.
I just found Karl's response funny.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/20/08 11:27 AM

The story behind Brother Hamman's Gemini Count is a strange one. Karl has claimed that he had the handling (or the essence of he handling) in print prior to Brother Hamman's publication of it (or, perhaps, prior to the point when Brother John began publicly performing routines using it).

So, when it came time to write up The Gemini Count for The Secrets of Brother John Hamman, I asked Brother John what he wanted me to do: give Karl credit or not. Brother John genuinely had no recollection whatsoever of having read the Fulves count, or having seen anyone do it. He was convinced that he came up with it on his own--and it was Brother John who decided that Karl's name didn't need to be mentioned.

It's been so long since I read Karl's count, the details are no longer clear. However, I have no recollection that he had anything like Brother Hamman's "Twins" trick--simply a two as four count.
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Postby Ryan Matney » 01/20/08 10:00 PM

That's interesting, Richard. I had no idea of Karl's claim to the Hamman gemini count!

But, I think David Regal was talking about Gemini Twins...as in the mate matching dealing trick from one of the self-working card magic Dover books.

The trick where a spectator deals the deck and places two face up cards anywhere and they are shown to be beside their mates.

I don't have a reference handy but you know the one I mean?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/20/08 11:09 PM

I don't know it.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/21/08 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
...I have always felt that the idea of having a shell with a partial rim, so a coin can be slid out rather than dropped out, was an obvious idea...
Respectfully, a reveiw of this gaffed pilgrim's progress suggests otherwise.

Scot 1580s - thin stuck on using wax
Hofzinser 1800s - shell used over one of two smaller coins.
Hoffmann 1900s- More Magic - two items of note *you'd think his first application would have brought the slider into existance but no - look at that gawd awful sleight he offers instead !!

Downs - 1900s- Dime/Penney (sun/moon) and plenty of other stuff including shell and foil piles of coins but no sliders in print.

The really good ideas seem obvious in hindsight.
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Postby Ryan Matney » 01/21/08 10:09 AM

"Gemini Twins" by Karl Fulves is in 'More Self-Working Card Magic' pg. 1 - First trick.

It's also in Magic For Dummies as "Soul Mates" in the card magic section.

Roberto Giobbi has a handling in one of the Card College books somewhere as well. Don't have those handy.

David Regal suggested that the use of a blank deck as a kicker for this trick is very powerful.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/21/08 10:43 AM

Ryan, Thanks for clearing that up.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 01/21/08 11:24 AM

I believe the "force" principal behind the Gemini Twins goes back further than Fulves. Baker used it. And it is often identified with Annemann. I believe Ackerman mentions Gardner's name in his write up of the principal.

Trost put out a version where all the cards where the same in the end, which is similar in concept to the blank deck kicker.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 01/21/08 11:27 AM

When the gaff-based threefly came out some years back, I began to think about it and quickly came up with the idea of a partial-rim shell. But not until someone else already came up with it!

There's a bit in one of Orson Scott Card's books -- Ender's Game, I think -- in which they talk about the mechanism that lets people communicate instantly at galactic distances. Basically, humans were convinced the idea was impossible in principle, until they saw that some other culture were able to do it, at which point, without seeing the other culture's technology, they were able to figure it out on their own.

I don't think the idea of the partial rim shell is the breakthrough. I think the breakthrough is the new applications the partial rim shell allows. Once you come up with those, it's (relatively) easy to figure out that a partial rim shell will do the job.

This is the same in magic -- new effects are hard, new methods are much more common.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/21/08 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:
...I don't think the idea of the partial rim shell is the breakthrough. I think the breakthrough is the new applications the partial rim shell allows. Once you come up with those, it's (relatively) easy to figure out that a partial rim shell will do the job.

This is the same in magic -- new effects are hard, new methods are much more common.
Pete - have a look in Hoffmann's More Magic. He had DeKolta's multiplying billiards and shell gaff, the vases, and the shell coin and even the idea of having a coin "multiply" at his fingertips yet did not appear to make the connections to other tricks in his own books - or even to the mechanical utility of sliding the coin shell.

IMHO you are looking at some of the data through an informed hindsight. Even Steve Dusheck himself was not offering expanded half dollar sliders (or a cut dowm magnetic half). To use the English Penney version one had to buy and cross match (they did not quite fit right when used this way) the gaffs from his Slippery Sam Combination Coin Set.
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Postby Denis Behr » 01/21/08 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Matney:
"Gemini Twins" by Karl Fulves is in 'More Self-Working Card Magic' pg. 1 - First trick.
Originally published by Fulves as Stopped Twice in Impromptu Opener, 1979.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 01/21/08 05:14 PM

Just to keep this sub-thread going: Allan Ackerman has several versions of the Gemini Twins in "Las Vegas Kardma", and he credits Martin Gardner but says that according to Marlo the idea goes back to even before Al Baker. Al Baker has two similar tricks - one is Twin Souls (the first effect in the "Encyclopedia of Card Tricks") and the other is Two Souls (from his "$25 Manuscript" from the 1920s, reprinted in "The Secret Ways of Al Baker").
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Postby Ryan Matney » 01/21/08 11:09 PM

I just checked the Baker trick "Twin Souls" to refresh my memory. It's not the same principle as "Gemini Twins" Not exactly. "Gemini Twins" is a two key placment specifically. "Twin Souls" uses the one ahead principle and key cards to force one of two selections. This is also the trick that Stewart James said was not Baker's at all. I don't have the other Baker reference so I can't check it.

Roberto Giobbi states that the effect/principle was first published in "The Jinx" no. 83 March 9, 1940 pg 535 credited not to Anneman but to Herb Rungie. Fulves was aware of the credit when he used the trick as part of a longer routine.

Ackerman, Duffie, Bannon, and Jack Carpenter have all experiemented in expanding the key card placment from two to four cards or adding a four ace kicker.

The Trost effect that uses this is now commonly known as Kaleidoscope Cards.

We done showing off now? :D
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Postby Max Maven » 01/22/08 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Ryan Matney:
[QB]Roberto Giobbi states that the effect/principle was first published in "The Jinx" no. 83 March 9, 1940 pg 535 credited not to Anneman but to Herb Rungie. Fulves was aware of the credit when he used the trick as part of a longer routine.
Not exactly. When Fulves first published the trick as part of a manuscript ("Gambler's Third Lesson" if memory serves) he knew the principle went back to the 1940s, but did not know the specific reference. He discovered the Rungie credit only in the last decade or so, and promptly put that information in print.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/22/08 05:44 AM

Originally posted by Ryan Matney:
I just recieved the new issue of Karl Fulves's 'Prolix'. He has a very interesting bit of information regarding the sliding shell controversy as written about by David Regal in Genii. The history of this thing is very confusing to me...
Did Mr Fulves have anything to say about the sliding shell gaff?
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Postby Denis Behr » 01/22/08 05:53 AM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Karl essentially says that he came up with the idea of a shell with a partial rim.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 01/22/08 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Denis Behr:
...[from RK]Karl essentially says that he came up with the idea of a shell with a partial rim.
This - in the recent Prolix? That would be inconsistant with what others had reported on this issue of the coin gaff - and it's larger recent issue/context which was the focus of the Regal review.
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Postby Matthew Field » 01/22/08 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Max Maven:
When Fulves first published the trick as part of a manuscript ("Gambler's Third Lesson" if memory serves)
Max -- does this predate "Impromptu Opener" (1979), Karl's manuscript in which I first read the principle?

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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 01/22/08 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Matthew Field:
Originally posted by Max Maven:
[b] When Fulves first published the trick as part of a manuscript ("Gambler's Third Lesson" if memory serves)
Max -- does this predate "Impromptu Opener" (1979), Karl's manuscript in which I first read the principle?

Matt Field [/b]
They were both from the same year.

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Postby Denis Behr » 01/22/08 09:50 AM

Since in Gambler's Third Lesson at one point Fulves writes "This has been said before in Impromptu Opener,..." it should follow that Impromptu Opener predates Gambler's Third Lesson.

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Postby Ryan Matney » 01/22/08 10:25 AM

Thanks, Max. I misread/misunderstood the credit in Card College. The wording was such that I thought it meant Fulves was aware of the Rungie credit but thought the principle went back even further.


Gemini Twins really is a great trick and I use it all the time. Any one else use it?
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 01/22/08 12:44 PM

I perform Gemini Twins quite frequently. A great trick with even a borrowed deck (as long as it's complete). Sold properly, it can be quite strong.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 01/22/08 04:12 PM

If I am asked in a social setting to do a trick, this is my first choice.
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Postby Stan Willis » 02/02/08 05:59 AM

Does anyone have any historical information on
"The Gemini Twins" by David Van Vranken??

"The Quintuplicate Coincidence" by Scotty York suggests that this trick was Scotty's handling and presentation of the above mentioned effect.
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 05/26/08 08:53 AM

Fulves makes mention of the sliding shell in Vol. 8 No. 8 1973 of The Pallbearers Review and then again in Vol. 9 No. 6 from 1974. In either section he does not take credit for the sliding shell.

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