Frank Garcia Cups

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Postby Robert Kane » 01/12/02 10:27 AM

Has anyone seen or used the Frank Garcia Cups available from Tannen's. I have read about them, but have not seen them.

They are described as being a bit different from current popular styles. For example, they don't have the standard rings around the circumference of the cup, rather, "eleven studs circle the cups making it a sure grip."

Appreciate hearing any thoughts about these cups, especially if Garcia used them. :)
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Postby Sean Piper » 01/12/02 01:24 PM

Hi Robert,

I've just emailed you a couple of photos of the Garcia Cups. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Sean Piper.
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Postby Robert Kane » 01/12/02 04:54 PM

Thanks Sean....got your e-mail. They look pretty cool and different. I was in Brisbane, Australia once back in the 80's when I worked for QANTAS doing PR. You live a really beautiful city. Regards, Robert
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Postby Michael Edwards » 01/13/02 06:33 AM

First, I do not believe these cups have been marketed as "Frank Garcia cups," rather, all the advertising materials I have seen simply cite them as "Garcia" cups. Second, here's what Frank Garcia wrote about his own preferences in cups: "The finest cups for these routines [The Frank Garcia Million Dollar Cups and Ball Routine] are those designed by Paul Fox and manufactured by Danny Dew...Obviously almost any cup and ball set may be used. However I've found the Fox apparatus that Danny Dew manufactures far superior to any other on the market. The reason is that the cups are the correct size and have the correct weight for easier and cleaner handling." (Frank Garcia The Very Best of Cups and Balls, 1979) And quite frankly, there is no comparison between the cups Danny Dew made and those marketed as "Garcia" cups.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/13/02 09:23 AM

And, coincidentally, I have a set of Paul Fox HEAVYWEIGHT copper cups that I bought from Danny Dew years ago that I would be happy to sell. Bids, anyone?
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Postby Guest » 01/13/02 10:48 AM

As far as I am aware the Garcia cups are NOT exact copies of Frank Garcia's cups so do not warrant the price. The actual cups are owned by my friend Martin Grams who refused to loan then to Tannen's so they could copy them. He didn't think Frank would have wanted him to, having been ripped off a few times by them :) :)
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Postby Guest » 01/14/02 11:29 AM

Richard

Do they come with manufacturing rights...
sorry could not help my self.

Reesman
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Postby Guest » 01/14/02 11:44 AM

Ha Ha, I'll ask when I'm in the U.S. in a couple of weeks. :) :)

I am surprised at the ridiculously high price of some of these cups anyway.But then, it is one classic I was never a fan of. With the exception of Tommy Wonder's routine.
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Postby Pete Biro » 01/23/02 09:13 AM

The "Garcia" cups are IMHO a "novelty" maybe a collector (like me) would buy them to display.

If you are performing?

Danny Dew cups.

Ring N' Things cups.

Johnson Cups.

Tim Star Combo cups.

Sistsi Cups.

Ross Bertrem (Charlie Miller Magic Inc. copies)

Owen Stainless Steel.

Johnny Pual cups (for sponge balls).

The rest? Novelties?

(Above in no particular order)
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Postby Jim Riser » 01/25/02 05:29 PM

Hey, Pete - you left out a set!

The "Garcia Cups" that I have handled were obviously designed as an item to be quickly made with a minimum of skill. The idea behind the dimples was apparently to avoid spinning the upper bead. Spinning this bead is problematic in any set of cups. The worst part of the cups is that the dimples were not evenly spaced around the cup! The cups consequently do not have a classy look to them; but, rather, a crudely made look. "Thumbs down" on these cups.
Jim :(
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Postby Brad Jeffers » 01/26/02 02:18 PM

Pete, I would be interested in your opinion on the "Bartolomeo Bosco" cups from Harries Magic. Just going by the picture on their website, this looks like a very nice set of cups. They look like they would be perfect for the Johnny Paul routine and they only cost $43! What do you think? To view the cups, go to www.harriesmagic.com and click on "Kom In" (the non-english section). Click on "katalog" and then "Bagarspelet".
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Postby Pete Biro » 01/26/02 04:22 PM

I have the BOSCO Cups from Harries... as for the Johnny Paul routine? They are huge, and you would need to try bigger than 2 inch sponge balls.

We sell the Johnny Paul Cups and they work with the 2-inch super soft goshman sponge balls.

Contact Stevens Magic for them.
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Postby Brad Jeffers » 01/27/02 03:49 PM

Actually, the Bosco cups come in 2 sizes, huge and normal. The smaller (normal) cup measures 3 inches high - 3 inches at the mouth - and 1 & 3/4 inches at the top. This should, I think, work perfectly with a standard 2 inch sponge ball.
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Postby Michael Edwards » 01/27/02 04:03 PM

Brad:

I must say that I haven't handled these cups, so they might indeed "work perfectly"...though I'm not sure we share the same meaning of that term. "Work perfectly" in the Johnny Paul sense means that the size and construction of the cup allows a number of very specific and unusual sleights, subtleties, and effects with sponge balls that cannot be performed with cups of different dimensions. Pete Biro has done a wonderful job in fashioning a cup to meet these requirements; I'd be interested if the "Bosco" cups do as well.

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Postby Jim Riser » 01/27/02 05:28 PM

Brad;
I have both the Harries standard and Bosco cups. In order to do the Johnny Paul routine you require a tapered cup with a slightly longer than "normal" taper. Pete's cups are correctly made with this long taper. The standard size cup from Harries has a rounded top and would most likely not work. If it did pick up the ball, it would probably prematurely drop it! (I do not have any large sponge balls for testing). The Bosco Cups, on the other hand, are probably suitable for the job as they are in the traditional tapered shape. They are large cups (4 1/2" high and 3" at the mouth) and would require a rather large sponge ball. If you want to be sure, get Pete's Johnny Paul Cups with the proper angle on the taper. BTW - a couple weeks ago I ran across an old aluminum set of cups which are virtually identical to Pete's brass cups. Perhaps an original set of Johnny Paul Cups? Same height, same diameter.
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Postby Pepka » 02/07/02 12:06 PM

Just a quick thought on the Garcia cups. UGLY AS SIN!!! Anyone interested in seeing a collection of various cups needs to checkout www.jimriser.com. He really knows his stuff.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/07/02 10:03 PM

Have any of you seen a set of the Joe Porper cups? The only two three I've seen are the sets made for Vernon, Charlie Miller, and Larry Jennings. Really beautiful cups.
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Postby Pete Biro » 02/07/02 10:17 PM

I have a set of Joe Porper's cups -- cost me more than the fabled D Dew cups... Joe had "One last set at the WMS in Las Vegas - made in stainless steel. He sold them for less than half of what I paid for his Copper ones at the Castle swap meet. However, I really didn't pay anything, as that day I got $1,000.00 cash for an item I was going to sell for $200.00 [someone saw the item and said "I'll give you a thousand for it..."]

Meanwhile, someone here, who knew I was looking for a set of Harry Stanley cups, sent a set to me recently... and they are EXACTLY the same [except in aluminum] as Porper's. I was told Porper used the Stanley set belonging to Michael Skinner to make his pattern. :)
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Postby Jim Riser » 02/07/02 11:09 PM

A set of Joe Porper copper cups just sold by a dealer a few weeks ago for only $350! They're gone now - so do not ask. I can remember the days when he sold his quality items at Magic Castle swap meets. Nice stuff- any of it! BTW - The Stanley Cups that I have seen were all spun. Joe Porper sets that I have seen were machined by CNC from a solid bar of metal. Michael Edwards was kind enough to supply images of both sets for my "Historic Cups" web pages. As I recall, I placed them on the "Three Beads" web page.
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Postby Michael Edwards » 02/08/02 03:41 AM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Have any of you seen a set of the Joe Porper cups? The only two three I've seen are the sets made for Vernon, Charlie Miller, and Larry Jennings. Really beautiful cups.


Yes, Richard. I have a set of Joe Porper cups in machined copper. They are indeed very nice, but I want to echo Pete Biro's note that the design is an exact copy of the cups that Harry Stanley had made for Dai Vernon's first English tour. The difference is that the Stanley cups were spun, whereas Porper's were beautifully machined with a black interior. The Porpers are also quite a bit heavier. A single Porper cup in copper weighs almost 10 ounces; a single Stanley copper cup weighs less than four. I didn't know that Stanley made these sets in aluminum as well, but I'd imagine that Pete's set in this metal is even lighter. By the way, in addition to his copper and his steel sets, Joe Porper also crafted his cups in brass. For those interested in seeing images of these cups, pictures of my two sets are -- as Jim Riser notes -- on his historic cups website (click on the link to three beaded cups). There is a photo of the Harry Stanley version in Michael Ammar's book on the cups and balls. You can also see the Stanley/Porper design on the cover of the four Vernon Chronicles books. As for size, they are a just a bit larger than the regular Paul Fox/Danny Dew sets. In fact, you can just cover a PF cup with a Porper cup. As for price, I recall two sets of Porpers were being sold at the 1999 LA Conference on Magic History. The asking price was $750 each. One set sold for cash; the other was traded for an item of like value.

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[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Edwards ]
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Postby Jim Riser » 02/08/02 05:57 PM

Since we are discussing collectable cups here, I'll ask if anyone has information on gold plated Rings and Things cups (spun by Tim Starr)? I received a phone call the other night to inform me that such a set either was or will soon be up for private auction. If anyone is interested, email me privately and I'll send you what is supposedly the email address of the seller. It's not something I would want or need.
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Postby Joe M. Turner » 02/09/02 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Have any of you seen a set of the Joe Porper cups? The only two three I've seen are the sets made for Vernon, Charlie Miller, and Larry Jennings. Really beautiful cups.


I understand that Porper gave Thomas Wayne the last set of steel cups he made. TW says there are 80 sets of brass Porper cups but only 9 sets of steel cups were made.

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Postby Pete Biro » 02/09/02 05:53 PM

According to Joe, in conversation at the WMS, he sold his LAST remaining SET of steel cups to Andy Greget.
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Postby Joe M. Turner » 02/09/02 08:22 PM

My mistake. "One of" the last.

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Postby Michael Edwards » 02/10/02 08:50 AM

This has been a very interesting thread, with a great deal of informative material. And as a collector of cups, I certainly welcome -- and encourge -- this flow of information. Having said that, I think we've come to the point in the conversation where I always have to add something about the real magic of the cups and balls. No one appreciates a well-crafted set of cups than I do. I've seen some beautiful cups over the years. And I've been willing to pay a pretty price for many. There are some cups in my collection that I wouldn't trade for all the world. And cups design can certainly make a difference in handling and approach. But the finest cups and balls routine I ever witnessed was by a magician who used three stumpy Mason jars covered with brown paper. And I've seen wonderful -- truly magical -- acts using teacups, candlesticks, rice bowls, dixie cups, coffee mugs, plastic tumblers, and even folded up pieces of cardboard. However beautiful and well crafted a set of cups might be, the magic isn't in the apparatus, it is in the performance.

Michael Edwards

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Edwards ]
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Postby Guest » 02/11/02 05:15 AM

I'll ask if anyone has information on gold plated Rings and Things cups (spun by Tim Starr)?

Mr. Riser according to my records and what i was told by the original owners of R'NT there were only 4 sets of gold Montie cups made. As of 1995 one set was confermed destroyed in a fire and one set was being used by a little old lady to dring lemonade out of ( honestly ). Hope this helps anyone intrested in them.

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Postby Guest » 02/11/02 05:17 AM

Oh I almost forgot one set is owned by Johnny Thomson.

Reesman
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Postby Guest » 02/12/02 12:30 PM

According to Mike Brazill (co-owner of RNT) there were 10 gold-plated sets made. One has been rumored to be destroyed by fire and one set was extensively used and beat up badly. The set for auction is by sealed bids from Rodney Whitlock of Yendor's World of Magic. For information call 1-440-585-2463.
Cliff James :)
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