Han Ping Chien move

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Tony Rush » 04/13/11 06:34 PM

Is it just me? Or does anyone else feel that this move is unnatural looking?

I'm a huge Slydini fan and God knows I'd never presume to know more about magic and misdirection than he or many of the other greats.

But, even when I see Slydini do this move, it just looks hurried. And with the proximity of the left hand which is swiftly carried away....I just can't help but think that the average spectator suspects something.

Anyone else grappled with this issue?

Thanks,
Tony
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/13/11 07:05 PM

The way in which Slydini did the sleight bears little resemblence to the original handling by Han Ping Chien.

The original handling turns out to be much like what Geoff Latta later reinvented and is published in CoinMagic (the original was published in David P. Abbott's book and he learned it directly from Chien). Assuming that the coins to drop are in the left hand, it is held in a fist about six to twelve inches above the table, with the pinky side of the fist downward. The downward slapping right hand passes by the left hand, during which the coins are released from the pinky side of the left fist and slapped to the table by the right hand.
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Postby Tony Rush » 04/13/11 07:53 PM

Richard, I guess I need to see it in action because that description sounds pretty much like what I've seen.

It's the crossing over and "slapping" motion that doesn't seem to be a natural move.

If you're holding two hands in front of you with coins in each hand...and you wanted to show those coins, how would you do it? The most natural way is to simply open the hands.

But if you DID want to put them on the table, why would one bring one's right hand across the body to slap the coins down? Why would one not just slap them down on the right side of the table where the hand already is?

In other words, I guess I could see it making more sense if there were someone seated on the performer's left side which would mean that bringing the right hand across would be more justified.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/13/11 08:06 PM

The hand doesn't have to slap the coins down to the table. Roger Klause printed a handling in Pallbearers Review, which Derek Dingle also used to use, where the right hand is palm up as it tosses the coins to the table. The coin from the left hand joins them invisibly as they are tossed forward.
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Postby Tony Rush » 04/13/11 08:10 PM

Ah, okay. That sounds a bit more natural. I'll see what I can find out. Thanks for the references.
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Postby Doc Dixon » 04/13/11 09:22 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:The hand doesn't have to slap the coins down to the table. Roger Klause printed a handling in Pallbearers Review, which Derek Dingle also used to use, where the right hand is palm up as it tosses the coins to the table. The coin from the left hand joins them invisibly as they are tossed forward.


Are you referring to the shell handling in the coins through the table routine from Complete Works?
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Postby rkosby » 04/13/11 10:49 PM

Which video of Slydini doing the coins through table did you watch?

I had read his routine in Best of Slydini and More before I saw him perform it. You're right about the action itself. It doesn't look natural.

But when I watched him perform the routine in person it was great. It was like seeing his hands apart, hearing the coins hit the table, then noticing the coins on the table. He was able to focus my attention away from each move with a combination of feints, attitude, and questions.

If you examine the way he handled the move though, he tried to make it angle proof. I suppose the price was naturalness. Even though his misdirection was great, he took no chances. I guess he believed you can misdirect some of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 04/13/11 11:52 PM

I never, ever, slapped down on table when doing the Han Ping Chien. Check ount my handling on volume 4 of my "Best Ever" DVD set. It is an absolutely natural looking action. HL.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 04/13/11 11:53 PM

I never, ever, slapped down on table when doing the Han Ping Chien. Check ount my handling on volume 4 of my "Best Ever" DVD set. It is an absolutely natural looking action. HL.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/14/11 08:01 AM

Tony Rush wrote:...I just can't help but think that the average spectator suspects something.

Anyone else grappled with this issue?


Many have, from HPC himself to Presto working on the streets to those who use the 'show this but drop that' as a basic method in their routines (Roth's Purse and Glass is one example).

Harry Lorayne wrote up an "Instant Wildcoin" that uses HPC as a switch of three for three.

Perhaps the part you're having trouble with is communicating the feint to audiences? Something's gotta motivate that display.

-Jon
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Postby El Mystico » 04/14/11 09:01 AM

Don't overlook the Gallo Pitch.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/14/11 09:31 AM

? as of picking up and tossing down coins by any handling, palm up or down requires less motivation and setup?

Have a look at videos of the sleights in action and cover over the table and hands - just watch the performer and his attention(s) for a check on this.
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Postby El Mystico » 04/14/11 09:49 AM

Jon; my post wasn't a response to your post but to the original. There are several aspects to consider when trying to get HPC to look convincing. Yes, the picking up and tossing down is one of them, and no, the Gallo Pitch in itself doesn't motivate them. But it helps with some aspects.
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Postby Max Maven » 04/14/11 06:00 PM

For what it's worth, the "Han Ping Chien" move predates Mr. Han's visit to the United States in 1914. It's in print in the book "Tengutsu" by Hirase Hose, published in Japan in 1779.

The finest use of the move I ever saw was by Shigeo Takagi, in whose hands it was the most gentle of actions.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 04/14/11 06:35 PM

Max: Shigeo was at my home many years ago. I did my way of "handling" the HPC move - and he sort of "marveled" at it. I'm wondering if that's what he did for you. Not important; just curious. Incidentally, I remember him fooling me quite a bit that day. We had met before, many years prior - I was coming home from two weeks of lecturing in the Philippines - stopped in Tokyo on my way home to lecture there. Shigeo was my host, and a fine host he was. Best - Harry.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/14/11 10:04 PM

Thanks Max, what is the item called and how is the sleight referred to in "Tengutsu" by Hirase Hose?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/14/11 10:59 PM

Looks to be an interesting book from this glimpse: http://ookaboo.com/o/pictures/picture/1 ... rom_Tengut
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Postby Rob Block » 04/15/11 07:33 AM

This is also very similar to David Harkey's handling described in "Le Richochet" in Simply Harkey.
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Postby Rob Block » 04/15/11 07:34 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:The hand doesn't have to slap the coins down to the table. Roger Klause printed a handling in Pallbearers Review, which Derek Dingle also used to use, where the right hand is palm up as it tosses the coins to the table. The coin from the left hand joins them invisibly as they are tossed forward.


Oops, Sorry. I was responding to this above.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/15/11 10:39 AM

David Harkey's would be similar to what has come before. The Klause handling was published in the late 1960s or early 70s.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 04/15/11 12:26 PM

In Scripting Magic I have a coins across routine ("The Vortex") that uses Latta's palm-up HPC and justifies the slapping action required of the move. Basically you put a lit candle in the center of the table and three coins (one of which is a shell) in your left hand. The left hand closes, passes over the candle, and opens to reveal only two coins, one of which is "left behind" in the flame.

Now the right hand plucks the coin from the flame, but it's hot, so you quickly put it down on the table to blow on your fingers. Of course you pluck nothing, but HPC one of the coins from the left hand as you put the ersatz coin down. The slapping action is justified by your reaction to the supposed heat of the coin.
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Postby J-Mac » 04/17/11 01:02 AM

Tony,

Just thought I would post this video by Tim Feher as an example of an HPC move that doesnt look too much like the one on the Slydini video you mentioned. It's not an actual routine but just a demo of how he performs the sleight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8q59JStPs

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Postby Travis » 04/18/11 11:02 PM

I really don't think the slapping action is necessary.

Certainly the handling in David Harkey's 'Le Ricochet' is an elegant approach (I believe Richard said it's similar to Derek Dingle's), and I've used it for many years.

However, I find for other routines it looks good to simply open the hand as if releasing the coins as they're secretly dropped from the bottom of the opposite fist. I believe this idea came to me from Harry Lorayne's Coins Through Table from 'The Magic Book'. In that effect the action occurs as the coin is being gathered back into the hand; that is, left hand really tosses it's coin to the table > left hand picks up coin at fingertips > at the same time right hand begins to open to apparently drop its coin > left hand simply drops coin from fingertips as it continues to close into a fist, as though still holding a coin.

I find this works with two or three, as well. No slapping required.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/19/11 08:15 AM

What's with the slapping and such?

The strategy is to "show this and place it here" and from within that flow of action have a that to release into place so you can proceed with your trick's method ( be it a one ahead with a similar or transformation using a dissimalar ;) ).

Character, blocking and dramatic structure guide whether that flow of action includes a slapping action followed by a beat where you scoop up or move things around - or just a simple display and then placement action coordinated by a slight turn of ones body.
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Postby Al Schneider » 05/21/11 06:03 AM

Just crusing around the forum and noticed this.
I have had trouble with HPC all my life.
I finally resolved it with Max Al Ping Chen.
Its in my latest book, Al Schneider Magic.

Had to plug that.

What I want to say is that in my first three months of magic I went to a lecture by Tony Slydini. That was 1960.
I was sitting directly in front of him about ten rows back.
When he did HPC I saw the three coins slip out of one hand, fall on the table to be covered by the other hand.

I know, I get blasted for being a realist.
I am starting to get used to it.

To be fair, I remember him doing the silver dollar that goes everywhere. Don't know the name. I thought that was impossible. Then the business of untying the knot without untying it.

Tony was one of the people that introduced me to really good magic. That lecture was enough to fire me up.

Well, all the best.
Al Schneider
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 05/21/11 09:04 AM

Physics - as in Ticks and clicks?

Congrats on the new book.
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