Wilson/Jennings Chop Cup Routine Question

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Postby Mike Rose » 01/24/11 02:35 AM

I recently read in Ron Wilsons book, Tales from the Uncanny Scot that Larry Jennings Chop Cup routine published in 1965 was actually Ron Wilsons routine that Jennings submitted without Wilsons permission. Wilson mentions in Tales from the Uncanny Scot that several magicians knew this and that Bruce Cervon wrote about it later in one of his books. I am curious if anyone knows if Bruce Cervon did mention this in any of his books and if so, which book.

Thanks,

Mike
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Postby Steve Bryant » 01/24/11 08:46 AM

Bruce included a description of the routine in his Castle Notebooks, dated 8/24/67 (this is volume 4 of the L&L books). His annotation is "See Famous Larry Jennings Chop Cup Routine Genii This is really Ron Wilson's -- This is a very very fine routine." Note that there are minor differences in the published versions. I used to do the routine as published in Genii, and then, when I moved to the Magic Castle, I saw Ron Wilson do it and he fooled me badly. He also had the great idea to do it with a cardboard coffee cup from Coffee Dan's, which got a laugh and seemed so innocent.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/24/11 11:31 AM

The routines are not the same, but Jennings was heavily inspired by Ron's routine and the Jennings routine should have ALWAYS carried a credit to Ron. If Ron wanted to claim complete credit for the routine he would have done that in the book I published where the routine is fully described.
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Postby Mike Rose » 01/24/11 12:31 PM

Thanks for the info. I was just wondering if Cervon had mentioned it in one of his books. I do not have the Castle Notebooks (Volume 4 or otherwise) can you tell me when L&L published Volume 4 of the Castle Notebooks? Was it before Wilson published Tales from the Uncanny Scot? BTW, just for the record, I am not trying to fan a controversy, Im just curious since I had just recently read about this in Wilsons book.

Thanks!

Mike
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Postby Steve Bryant » 01/24/11 01:14 PM

I don't recall the exact publication dates for the Notebooks, but they were all before Tales, which just came out last year. (Oops -- just checked: Volume 4 was copyrighted 2009.)
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Postby erdnasephile » 01/24/11 01:37 PM

In order to keep the issue in perspective for those who don't have "Tales from the Uncanny Scot" (and if you don't have it, you are really missing out :) ), I wanted to point out the following:

Wilson devoted an entire chapter to fondly remembering Jennings in his book and stated: "I understood why Larry had been caught in a wave of pressure from his peers (to publish), but I never allowed this unfortunate event (publishing the chop cup routine) to change my long-standing friendship with him over the following years." (pg 42)

Very gracious guy, Ron was.
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Postby El Mystico » 01/24/11 01:45 PM

Cervon's Notebook 4 was advertised as shipping in May 2009 (but of course was written many years before this).

But the first reference to anyone seing "Tales" on this forum was July 2010.

Not sure what has piqued your curiosity here!

But - if you dont have the Cervon Notebooks, L&L have found a few of most of them, which they are selling at the original price.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/24/11 02:36 PM

Both the Wilson and Jennings routines have been published and can easily be compared to see what the differences are!
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Postby Mike Rose » 01/24/11 06:43 PM

Thank you everyone for the comments and info. I have read both routines in their published sources and understand that there are differences, but I was curious more about the story (more than the routines) since Wilson and Jennings DID remain good friends. I just enjoyed the fact that they felt their friendship was more important. That's pretty much what got me curious when reading Wilson's book and having never met either man was interested in others comments on their story.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

Mike
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Postby Bill Palmer » 01/27/11 08:27 PM

Bob Stencil also deserves some inspirational credit for this routine. Pete Biro has the whole story.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/27/11 09:27 PM

Bob Stencel told me directly that he and Larry worked out the final loading sequence together at the table in Larry's kitchen.
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Postby Pete Biro » 02/05/11 01:05 PM

Stencil was the creator of using the silk to mask the final load.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/05/11 01:28 PM

Pete, I will repeat again EXACTLY what Stencel told me when I pointedly asked him about this: he said that he and Larry developed the final load sequence together while sitting in Larry's kitchen.
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Postby Frank Quiroz » 02/05/11 03:37 PM

Richard, can you recall why issue of Genii that chop cup routine was published in? Id love to read it.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/05/11 03:46 PM

Just login to iGenii and search for "Larry Jennings" (in quotes) in Alexander. You'll find it pretty quickly.
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Postby Steve Bryant » 02/05/11 04:20 PM

I was just looking at it -- March 1965.
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Postby erdnasephile » 02/05/11 05:24 PM

Of historical note: in his recent book, Ron Wilson debunks the supposed Al Wheatley request given in the introduction to the routine.
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Postby Leonard Hevia » 02/07/11 09:04 PM

On the very last page of Jennings' On Card and Coin Handling booklet, Jennings credits Ron Wilson for help in the construction of his Chop Cup routine. The routine is the last effect described in the book.
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Postby Bill Mullins » 02/07/11 09:49 PM

James Swain's chop cup routine is inspired by Jennings', I believe. It's in "Don't Blink", or one of his other books.
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Postby Bill McFadden » 02/08/11 01:19 PM

Bill Mullins wrote:James Swain's chop cup routine is inspired by Jennings', I believe. It's in "Don't Blink", or one of his other books.


21st Century Card Magic (recently reprinted)
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Postby erdnasephile » 02/08/11 01:26 PM

Also on Volume 3 of his recent L & L DVD Set
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Postby Bill Mullins » 02/08/11 01:46 PM

McFadden's response above adds support to my theory that the best way to get someone to give the right information is to post the wrong information.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/08/11 02:55 PM

Trying Mr. Mullins' theory right now:

"David Berglas uses a secret gimmick made of brass, which costs $5,000, in the performance of 'The Berglas Effect'."
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Postby Bill Mullins » 02/08/11 03:15 PM

The upcoming Berglas book will be a big surprise to many. It turns out that the method to the Berglas Effect is that David Berglas is just a really good guesser.

This secret is revealed in about 3 pages in chapter one. The rest of the book is just David and Richard discussing who is hotter -- Carla Bruni, or Elizabeth Hurley.

If it weren't for the color fold out pages, I wouldn't buy the book.
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Postby Frank Quiroz » 02/08/11 03:34 PM

I also just confirmed that the DVDs included with the book are videos of David Berglas laughing at Richard after giving him the wrong information to publish in the book, thus keeping the real secret to himself!
Omg you guys please don't get me started.
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Postby Frank Quiroz » 02/08/11 03:39 PM

Richard also told me that the $5000 brass gimmick is included with The regular edition of the book. Not the deluxe
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 02/08/11 05:05 PM

Any of you guys seen "Chronos"? The gimmicked kind of works like that it.
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Postby Pete Biro » 02/08/11 07:20 PM

Persi gave me one of the gimmicks. Made of stainless steel.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 02/08/11 07:27 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Any of you guys seen "Chronos"? The gimmicked kind of works like that it.


You're letting the beetle out of the bag early?
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Postby Frank Quiroz » 02/08/11 09:17 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:Any of you guys seen "Chronos"? The gimmicked kind of works like that it.


You're letting the beetle out of the bag early?


He's not but I will....
Instead of DVDs, it will come with VHS tapes and a free VCR!
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