Expert Card Technique

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
El Mystico
Posts: 959
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Expert Card Technique

Postby El Mystico » January 1st, 2011, 2:20 pm

I bought this book as a teenager, and really struggled with it. At the time I put it down to my own ineptitude. But I've been rereading through the Birds of a Feather section today. And, boy, is there some rubbish in it. A couple of examples: "The Migratory Aces". I could never make this work. But now, knowing Vernon's The Travelers, I realise how the authors were struggling to replicate a fine effect; and missing all the subtleties. And what about the description of the Buckle count in Solo Flight Aces? Appalling. It is also interesting to see the description of the Vernon second deal in the Nomad Aces...We know now that the authors stole Vernon's material second hand: how little they understood it.
Don't get me wrong; I still love the book. But only because of the additional knowledge I've gained since my initial readings.
I'd love to seee an intelligently annotated version of the book. Maybe someone is considering one?

Doc Dixon
Posts: 216
Joined: April 16th, 2008, 1:45 pm

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Doc Dixon » January 1st, 2011, 4:39 pm

El Mystico wrote:I'd love to seee an intelligently annotated version of the book. Maybe someone is considering one?


Now that would be a great read and a half. I'd love to see that kind of project get in the right hands. I remember reading some of the late Paul Chosse's comments on ECT and they were very, very interesting.

DD
Last edited by Doc Dixon on January 1st, 2011, 4:40 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: typo

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 22965
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 1st, 2011, 4:45 pm

The Jones family has a huge amount of material from the production of Expert Card Technique. A new edition, similar to what I did with Greater Magic, could certainly be prepared.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Ted M
Posts: 796
Joined: January 24th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Dani DaOrtiz
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Ted M » January 2nd, 2011, 2:18 pm

That would be fascinating!

DrDanny
Posts: 293
Joined: January 22nd, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Sunnyvale CA

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby DrDanny » January 2nd, 2011, 3:08 pm

how many people would have to say "I'd buy it!" before someone takes the initiative to make it happen, or at least to do the research? I'd buy it!

Philippe Noël
Posts: 414
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 10:43 am
Location: Belgium(Liège)
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Philippe Noël » January 2nd, 2011, 3:46 pm

Hi El Mystico,
I would also certainly love to read a book such as The Annotated Expert Card Technique.
They are so many mysterious things in this book.
Has someone already tried the jog pass?
I would love to see it done properly.
And what do you think of the flesh grip pass?
And the finger palm pass improved. I suppose I don't understand it but it does not read so improved. The longitudinal shift that you find in Erdnase looks much more superior.
In the introduction of the book, you also find a suprising statement.
Hugard says:" For three decades(1910 to 1930) these books( Secrets of Conjuring and Magic, Sachs' Sleight of Hand, the great Hoffmann trinity, Modern Magic, More Magic and Later Magic, and Lang Neill's The Modem Conjurer, The Expert at the Card Table, The Art of Magic) were the textbooks of the aspiring card conjurer, no new and important titles making their appearance. Then, during the middle thirties, the literature of magic was enriched by such valuable treatises as Greater Magic, by John Northern Hilliard; The Encyclopedia of Card Tricks, edited by Jean Hugard; Card Manipulations and More Card Manipulations, by Jean Hugard; and the publications of Theo Annemann, Laurie Ireland and Ralph Hull."
Nevertheless, books like Magician's Tricks by Hatton and Plate, And a Pack of Cards by Jack Merlin, Hofzinser Card Conjuring, Farelli's Card Magic were published during those three decades!

Joe Mckay
Posts: 946
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Joe Mckay » January 2nd, 2011, 3:56 pm

For those of you who are members of 'The Magic Cafe' - and have posted at least 50 posts on the site - you can access a very interesting thread about 'Expert Card Technique' by Paul Chosse. It contains a ton of fascinating information...

Just click HERE.

All the best,

Joe

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 22965
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 2nd, 2011, 5:29 pm

Hugard disliked Vernon, didn't think much of Erdnase, and was generally very biased. (He also abandoned his wife and kids when he left Australia!)
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 2nd, 2011, 6:53 pm

Philippe Nol wrote:... Nevertheless, books like ...Hofzinser Card Conjuring, ... were published during those three decades!


And so well read that we continue to have folks asking for approval for their latest version of McDonald's Aces. EIEIO.

I've been asking after a properly annotated edition of ECT since Paul Chosse discussed some of the items in detail and one of the author's methods of obtaining material.

Bob Gerdes
Posts: 138
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Glen Cove, NY

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Bob Gerdes » January 2nd, 2011, 7:19 pm

Philippe Nol wrote:Has someone already tried the jog pass?
I would love to see it done properly.


Scotty Johnston from Scotland does this pass beautifully using the top card for cover.

Philippe Noël
Posts: 414
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 10:43 am
Location: Belgium(Liège)
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Philippe Noël » January 3rd, 2011, 4:52 am

Hi Richard,
In that case, how did he manage to have Vernon contribute to the third edition?
I imagine that it is through George Starke and that Vernon received finaly a financial retribution for his contribution.
Just wondering...

Philippe Noël
Posts: 414
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 10:43 am
Location: Belgium(Liège)
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Philippe Noël » January 3rd, 2011, 4:56 am

Any video of his pass is available?

D. Andrus
Posts: 20
Joined: October 14th, 2008, 10:38 pm

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby D. Andrus » January 3rd, 2011, 9:05 pm

"He also abandoned his wife and kids when he left Australia!"

What is the relevance of this statement to the subject of this thread?

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 22965
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 3rd, 2011, 9:08 pm

It says a lot about Hugard's character.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 4th, 2011, 11:38 am

Philippe Nol wrote:...I imagine that it is through George Starke and that Vernon received finaly a financial retribution for his contribution.
...


Interesting choice of words there.
Amusingly better than the "he should be flattered ..." and "SOL" one might hear today.

No idea if any money changed hands as regards that matter.

D. Andrus
Posts: 20
Joined: October 14th, 2008, 10:38 pm

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby D. Andrus » January 4th, 2011, 11:13 pm

Now while I agree that a man who walks out on his family has no character, there is still no relevance to making a statement about anyones character in this thread. You must have some axe to grind with Hugard? Did he question your character in the past?

User avatar
Q. Kumber
Posts: 1256
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Q. Kumber » January 5th, 2011, 4:05 am

Am I mistaken, or didn't Vernon regularly leave his family unattended for long periods? It doesn't take from his contribution to magic.

In 1974 I asked Ken Brooke what did he consider the best magazine ever published. He said Hugard's Magic Monthly.(Obviously Richard wasn't editing GENII at the time).

Jim Maloney
Posts: 708
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Location: Central New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jim Maloney » January 5th, 2011, 9:43 am

D. Andrus wrote:Now while I agree that a man who walks out on his family has no character, there is still no relevance to making a statement about anyones character in this thread. You must have some axe to grind with Hugard? Did he question your character in the past?


Given that the thread is about Expert Card Technique and it's history, Hugard (and Braue's) character is certainly relevant. Much of the material in the book was written and published without the consent of (or credit to) the creators.

This also comes up when looking at the material in Greater Magic after Hilliard's death. In the Kaufman edition, there's a letter published from Hugard which states, essentially, "If Leipzig won't give you his material for the book, I can just write it up since I'm familiar with it." Clearly, Hugard didn't have much regard for the creator's wishes.

That's not to say he didn't make some excellent contributions to magic.
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 5th, 2011, 9:50 am

? Know them by their works. I guess he valued some things more than others. About as far as I go is to wonder if the nature of his decisions as regards some matters we take as primary (say passing on some sense of integrity and consistency to one's own offspring by way of parental behavior) are similarly reflected in choices integral to their contributions to this craft.

IMHO there is much for the student in the works of "erdnase", Hugard, Braue, Vernon ...though some of that learning requires more than passive reading skills.

Reading between the lies,

Jon
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on January 5th, 2011, 9:54 am, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: Trees and ropes don't move on their own - try feeding it an apple.

Jim Maloney
Posts: 708
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Location: Central New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jim Maloney » January 5th, 2011, 10:09 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:About as far as I go is to wonder if the nature of his decisions as regards some matters we take as primary (say passing on some sense of integrity and consistency to one's own offspring by way of parental behavior) are similarly reflected in choices integral to their contributions to this craft.


Well...here's a little snippet of an e-mail I had from David Alexander a while back, when analyzing some of Leipzig's material:

"I subscribe to the theory that all art is autobiography. From what Leipzig does we can, I think, reasonably extrapolate observations about his personality/character."

I think hat point is just as relevant to any other person (Hugard included).

-Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)

Max Maven
Posts: 403
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Hollywood, CA
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Max Maven » January 5th, 2011, 10:19 am

All art is autobiographical; the pearl is the oyster's autobiography."

-- Federico Fellini

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 5th, 2011, 10:20 am

Jim (et al)

That notion - that one tends to describe what one experiences by way of one's values and knowlege base is a fairly well accepted basic notion in psychology.

Getting to your example of Nate Leipzig; I came across this some years ago on another webpage but found it just now for citation:
I was greatly excited when I heard that a Professor Stork, a magician who had come to Detroit recently and had opened a magical depot, would give a performance at a local hall. Of course, I made it my business to see his show which was very good, the one trick that was outstanding to me, was that in which he had three men in the front row, draw cards from a deck. The cards were returned to the deck and one of these men was asked to hold the cards in his hands. At that moment a telegraph boy came running into the hall shouting: "A telegram for Professor Stork." The professor opened the telegram and found the three cards that had been drawn by the three spectators and an examination of the pack proved that those three cards were missing from it. The trick impressed me greatly and as I understood the modus operandi I decided to do it at my next performance.

Just at this time a young cousin of mine had come from Sweden to live with us. He was about fifteen years of age, quite tall and at the awkward stage, but he was a nice boy and we all liked him and he very soon picked up our language. When I booked another date for the Clawson Hall and was anxious to do this new card trick I enlisted the services of cousin Sam. I carefully coached him in his part, he was to stand in the back of the hall and at my signal he was to come to the platform and deliver a letter to me. I had to make it a letter as I had no messenger boy's suit for him. The cue was that as soon as I returned to the stage, I would fold my arms. Well the trick proceeded all right up to this point and I faced the audience with my arms folded but nothing happened. Embarrassed, I held the position until I saw him coming up the aisle towards me with the envelope in his hand, his face as white as a sheet, he looked at me, then at the exit which was right next the stage and, without a word of warning, he dashed out and never stopped running till he got home. I could never remember what happened to me after that. Everything went blank in front of me. I think I got through a few more tricks and got out of the hall as quickly as I could, for I couldn't possibly face them. I never attempted that trick again for I never did like to use confederates.
from here: http://www.miraclefactory.net/mpt/view. ... les&id=129

(short version: I saw a trick I liked, copied it, got sick to myself and did not do that again)

The above has some potential morality to it if you're willing to project/imbue in that way. That such would carry into his works as distinctive rather than copied is something I look forward to exploring as more about him comes to print with Jim's project.

:)

Jon
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

David Ben
Posts: 189
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby David Ben » January 5th, 2011, 12:21 pm

I do not believe that Vernon regularly left his family unattended for long periods of time. When the boys were quite young, the family travelled together. Most summers, for example, were spent together in Colorado Springs while Vernon cut silhouettes. Eventually, Vernon did these summer excursions on his own to make money, the family preferring to stay in New York.

Jeanne was also a stay-at-home mom, and freelance artist who worked mostly out of the house.

Both boys basically moved out of the house when they were 16/17 to join the U.S. armed forces. When Vernon did leave New York in the 40s for extended periods of time it was because he was working the cruise ships to help support the family. (Ted was, of course, gone by this time.) Pretty standard fare. (If anything, the family probably wished that he went out more, particularly if it brought in more money.)

Not at all like Hugard.

Jim Maloney
Posts: 708
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Location: Central New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jim Maloney » January 5th, 2011, 1:47 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:The above has some potential morality to it if you're willing to project/imbue in that way. That such would carry into his works as distinctive rather than copied is something I look forward to exploring as more about him comes to print with Jim's project.


Though I don't know the nature of their relationship at the time, Nate was (relatively) young at that point. Late-teens perhaps. He wasn't working professionally at the time, and it's unclear 1. how much time was in between Stork's performance and Leipzig doing it himself and 2. how it was that he "understood the modus operandi". It's worth noting that they became friends while they were both in Detroit. They definitely shared material between them: they were the two earliest to use the Side Steal.

And Leipzig had a history of trading material. While still an amateur, he traded his ring on stick with Ten Ichi for the thumb tie (from the same source you have, Jon). And in the early 20's, he gave Herbert Milton his Magnetized Cards in return for Sympathetic Clubs. I believe he also swapped tricks with Vernon (T&R Cigarette Paper for Matching the Cards). I don't recall the details, but the Creation of Life was given to him by Fred Roberts -- but I don't recall if he wanted anything from Leipzig in return.

-Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)

Jim Maloney
Posts: 708
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Location: Central New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jim Maloney » January 5th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Max Maven wrote:All art is autobiographical; the pearl is the oyster's autobiography."

-- Federico Fellini


Thanks for that, Max.

-Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)

Philippe Noël
Posts: 414
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 10:43 am
Location: Belgium(Liège)
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Philippe Noël » January 5th, 2011, 7:35 pm

And what do you think of Frederick Braue who received the confidence of Charlie Miller and broke this confidence to publish Expert Card Technique with Hugard?
Is he an angel for sharing with the magic community or a devil for having broken the confidence?

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 5th, 2011, 8:15 pm

Have you noticed that not so many who were around Vernon and Miller back in CA have been so forthcoming in print?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 6576
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 5th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Larry Jennings, Bruce Cervon, Max Maven, and John Carney were/have not been forthcoming? I believe that the list of those who have been forthcomingand have material to share that was developed through their work with Vernonis much longer than the list of those who have not.

Dustin

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 5th, 2011, 9:02 pm

If it would not be indirectly insulting to the parties to be named I'd make further specific comment. I respect their choices to share what they will and as they choose. Not to worry, perhaps in a generation videos will leak out - reconstruction of some material may happen - ideas will be explored again.

By way of more contemporary example, it will be interesting to see how much of Geoff Latta's work gets into print, say in the next decade.

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 6576
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 5th, 2011, 9:15 pm

Im pretty sure Ricky and Persi dont worry about how the magic community feels about their reticence.

We can only hope that the book of Lattas material will be out in less than a decade; in the mean time, enjoy all the material that is in print (primarily in Richard Kaufmans various books and periodicals). And perhaps you canby way of exampletell us more about Geoffs days in California with Vernon and Miller.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 5th, 2011, 9:22 pm

Thanks Dustin - on this side, pretty much just waiting for the Hofzinser material to hit print in English. Maybe the Leipzig material too.

Geoff shared what he wanted as he wanted. Other than two items in two books (gee he must have loved getting that email asking why Nowhere Palm was not credited) folks have been good about his routines and ideas. Even his pass video has stayed off YouTube. Good for all involved so far. :)

Since some here don't get analogies, I don't think much of ECT as a good example book and have been asking for it's proper annotation with corrected handling and credits. And I would not think more of the authors had they gotten the tricks accurately as they worked without permission.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 22965
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 5th, 2011, 9:24 pm

Bruce Cervon told me on more than one occasion that he had compiled a list with Vernon's help of exactly who should be credited for what in Expert Card Technique.

That list should still be around somewhere.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 6576
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 5th, 2011, 9:37 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:...pretty much just waiting for the Hofzinser material to hit print in English.

You and me both. But I did stop holding my breath.

Richard Kaufman wrote:That list should still be around somewhere.

That is (with no pun intended) an interesting revelation. But I can see it now: A limited to 500 copies of an annotated edition of ECT at $200 a throw. :/

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 6th, 2011, 8:45 am

Dustin, I'd be happy to buy a copy of that book. And one day pass it on to a student I felt was sufficiently serious as to treasure it - and keep their trap shut around those who don't care to understand such things.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 6th, 2011, 9:37 am

PS- the corrected handlings would need to be in there as well. Paul Chosse discussed some of that over the phone during our long calls. Such a loss :(
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Jim Maloney
Posts: 708
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Location: Central New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jim Maloney » January 6th, 2011, 9:43 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:PS- the corrected handlings would need to be in there as well. Paul Chosse discussed some of that over the phone during our long calls. Such a loss :(


Jon,
Did he share things with you that weren't in his posts over on the Cafe? I'm curious to collect the various information that's out there.

With the hints Richard has dropped here (Jones family, Cervon), it sounds very much like an annotated version could be possible if the right parties could be convinced (which would likely be the hardest part). At least some of Chosse's stuff is readily available -- if there's more, I'm interested to know.

-Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7428
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 6th, 2011, 9:58 am

Sorry to report that Paul did not detail which of the items were shown to him directly in trust nor did he give permission to show/tell. The same goes for what he discussed of Jack McMillen's material. Those revelations are up to his delegates.

Ryan Matney
Posts: 821
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Hurley, Va
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Ryan Matney » January 6th, 2011, 1:14 pm

Dorian Rhodell was a friend/student of Paul Chosse and probably knows a bit about the Mcmillen material and ECT.
Are you Ultramodern? Order now at http://www.retrorocketmagic.com

Jim Maloney
Posts: 708
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Location: Central New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Jim Maloney » January 6th, 2011, 2:01 pm

True. I suspect Steve Youell may know a bit as well.
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 6576
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Expert Card Technique

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 6th, 2011, 2:56 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Dustin, I'd be happy to buy a copy of that book. And one day pass it on to a student I felt was sufficiently serious as to treasure it - and keep their trap shut around those who don't care to understand such things.

I would prefer to see an inexpensive paperback with an enormous print run so that everyone with an interest in card magic can afford it, read it, and learn from it. But I was just makingwhat did you call that sort of example?thats right; an analogy.

Dustin


Return to “Close-Up Magic”