Link of Mentalism to Hypnosis?

Instead of mentally projecting your mentalism thoughts, type them here.

Postby NateDigby » 08/17/10 01:14 AM

Hi guys,

I'm new here. I created a blog a few days ago on covert hypnosis. Anyway, while I was searching for articles, I found out that Mentalism is linked with Covert Hypnosis and Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP).

Can someone explain how mentalism is linked with hypnosis? I was kinda confused :)

Any help is very much appreciated
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Postby S. J. Lea » 08/17/10 08:36 AM

Mentalism is about telling a lie, making it sound (at least) plausible, and then producing some kind of convincer.

For example:

Lie: I can tell what card you have chosen by simply looking at your face.

Plausibility: I'm reading micro expressions, body language, etc.

Convincer: I give you the impression you have freely selected a card when in fact it is forced and then tell you what it is supposedly by reading your micro expressions, body language, etc.

The secret ingredient: The audience wants it to be true.

The same goes for 'Covert hypnosis'

Lie: It can be used to take revenge, seduce others and get other people to do what you want them to do.

Plausibility: It's done with hypnotism, NLP, etc.

Convincer: The shere number of ebooks, DVDs, etc. promising to teach it. If you say something enough times, people will start to believe it.

The secret ingredient: The customer wants it to be true.
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Postby NateDigby » 08/19/10 08:37 PM

S. J. Lea wrote:Mentalism is about telling a lie, making it sound (at least) plausible, and then producing some kind of convincer.

For example:

Lie: I can tell what card you have chosen by simply looking at your face.

Plausibility: I'm reading micro expressions, body language, etc.

Convincer: I give you the impression you have freely selected a card when in fact it is forced and then tell you what it is supposedly by reading your micro expressions, body language, etc.

The secret ingredient: The audience wants it to be true.

The same goes for 'Covert hypnosis'

Lie: It can be used to take revenge, seduce others and get other people to do what you want them to do.

Plausibility: It's done with hypnotism, NLP, etc.

Convincer: The shere number of ebooks, DVDs, etc. promising to teach it. If you say something enough times, people will start to believe it.

The secret ingredient: The customer wants it to be true.


Thanks for the response S. J. Lea. I appreciate it. One more question.

How does Mentalism work with covert hypnosis? I've read so much about it and it really confuses me.

I've read so much about Derren Brown and I want to find out how he does that.

Thanks
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Postby Seuss » 08/20/10 02:05 AM

Could be all my years on the net catching up with me but aren't you having a conversation with yourself?

Odd amount of effort to promote the spammish sites all your links point to.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/20/10 10:31 AM

Not if they're using NLP and seeking a consensus among their parts.

http://www.2knowmyself.com/Resolving_in ... ual_squash

Is there some part of you that is not deceived by the twaddle you want to tell others as you try to get over on them? Imagine it turning blue. Now imagine it's getting smaller. And as it gets smaller it's talking in a high pitched voice. Now it's so tiny and most of its words sound like "smurf". Okay is there any other part of you that feels covert hypnosis is not going to get you what you want from others. Good. Go get em.

Sits back and waits for the show.
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Postby David Alexander » 08/20/10 12:16 PM

Seuss lives up to his middle name.
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Postby S. J. Lea » 08/20/10 03:44 PM

Seuss wrote:Could be all my years on the net catching up with me but aren't you having a conversation with yourself?

Odd amount of effort to promote the spammish sites all your links point to.


Are you suggesting that me and the OP are the same person?
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Postby mrgoat » 08/20/10 04:13 PM

NateDigby wrote:
S. J. Lea wrote:Mentalism is about telling a lie, making it sound (at least) plausible, and then producing some kind of convincer.

For example:

Lie: I can tell what card you have chosen by simply looking at your face.

Plausibility: I'm reading micro expressions, body language, etc.

Convincer: I give you the impression you have freely selected a card when in fact it is forced and then tell you what it is supposedly by reading your micro expressions, body language, etc.

The secret ingredient: The audience wants it to be true.

The same goes for 'Covert hypnosis'

Lie: It can be used to take revenge, seduce others and get other people to do what you want them to do.

Plausibility: It's done with hypnotism, NLP, etc.

Convincer: The shere number of ebooks, DVDs, etc. promising to teach it. If you say something enough times, people will start to believe it.

The secret ingredient: The customer wants it to be true.


Thanks for the response S. J. Lea. I appreciate it. One more question.

How does Mentalism work with covert hypnosis? I've read so much about it and it really confuses me.

I've read so much about Derren Brown and I want to find out how he does that.

Thanks


There is no such thing as hypnosis.

Hope that saves you some time.

Love

Damian
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Postby S. J. Lea » 08/20/10 05:04 PM

mrgoat wrote:
There is no such thing as hypnosis.

Hope that saves you some time.

Love

Damian


Hi Damian,

The British Psychological Society (BPS) would disagree with you. BPS Report 'The Nature of Hypnosis' (2001)

The British Medical Association (BMA) have approved use of hypnosis and recommended all doctors receive training in hypnosis since 1955

The American Medical Association (AMA) followed in approving hypnosis in 1958

The American Psychological Association (APS) recognised hypnosis as a branch of psychology in 1960.

However,

The BPS, BMA, AMA and APS would all agree that what is touted as 'covert hypnosis' does not exist.
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Postby Gregory Edmonds » 08/20/10 05:05 PM

Mr. Lea,

Please permit me to point out that your characterizing the statement "I'm reading micro-expressions..." as being a "plausibility," is a bit off the mark.

If you garnered your knowledge from the Tim Roth television program (I don't have a TV, but confess I do catch the occasional re-run on HULU), your thought is understandable. The episode I saw expressed the same misconception.

Ray Birdwhissel could probably be called the first serious investigator of body "reading," with his published studies in "Kinesics." HIs work helped launch the careers of many so-called "body language experts."

Paul Eckman can clearly be called the world's leading exponent on the topic. His studies of facial expression, nervous tics, body positioning and the like, are the seminal works in the field.

Your mention of reading a micro-expression, however, is misinformed. A micro-expression is called what it's called because (the micro part) is NOT visible to the naked eye. It's only seen in slow-motion video capture. So, unless you meant to imply that you were reading what you saw on a television screen or computer monitor, your surmise was incorrect.

The only real mentalist I can think of who actually employs such knowledge is Marc Salem, who was, before going full-time as a very successful performer, a professor of psychology, and a student of Mr. Birdwhissel.

Hope this helps. I haven't looked at the site, but just in case (and I'll gain the ire of several folks by saying this), there is NO empirical evidence which suggests the claims made by NLP "authorities" are in fact, reality. NLP is (was, actually) a fascinating series of conjecture regarding the unconscious mind, and how it could be successfully accessed through esoteric communication theories. It turned out, however, that in real world application, the theories were nothing but theories.

I first encountered NLP when a staff member at a (then new) psychiatric facility (I later switched to trauma, which I found to be more interesting, then dropped out of the field altogether). I read all the works published I could find on the subject then, participated in some of the "exercises" developed based upon the theories postulated by the gentlemen who "discovered" the NLP process. I even encountered one of the original guys when attending a conference on hypnosis (which IS "real," by the way), but a rose by another name, when applied by folks like Kreskin - a guy I found fascinating as a kid - for a variety of reasons, I suppose he still is. He remains one of my favorite performers.

As I've not seen your site (and as it appears to be a commercial?), I probably won't, but mentalism and hypnosis, used by an entertainer (and, to some small degree, even by a therapist) can be very effective. The two fields are a natural mix. Look up the literature on Franz Polgar, who was, I believe, the first to regularly employ both together. It's possible Kreskin developed much of his work on that of Polgar.

Cheers,

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Postby Lisa Cousins » 08/20/10 05:20 PM

There's also a not-to-be-overlooked connection between mentalism, covert hypnosis, and internet forum sock-puppetism, for example:

LIE: I registered for an internet forum with a spam website in my signature line because I want to know how Derren Brown does his tricks.

PLAUSIBILITY: It's a magic forum, and people who have "read so much" about mentalism and covert hypnosis and "read so much" about Derren Brown - yet remain confused nonetheless - will likely be able to clear up the whole matter through the help of a concise internet forum post, if only someone would post one.

CONVINCER: A different guy with his own spam website signature line registers for the forum and delivers up that cloud-clearing concise post.

THE SECRET INGREDIENT: The audience is composed of innocents who would never even suspect the use of deception or perceptual manipulation, not in any aspect of life.

THE POTENTIAL PROBLEM: You might post on the wrong forum, where people routinely consider modes of deception as a part of their continual study - and THEN what would happen?
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Postby S. J. Lea » 08/20/10 05:37 PM

Hi Greg.

Thanks for your response. My post was a reply to a spam post, pointing out that it was spam and that 'covert hypnosis' was bollocks. Now I seem to have been dragged down with him.

Gregory Edmonds wrote:Mr. Lea,

Please permit me to point out that your characterizing the statement "I'm reading micro-expressions..." as being a "plausibility," is a bit off the mark.

If you garnered your knowledge from the Tim Roth television program (I don't have a TV, but confess I do catch the occasional re-run on HULU), your thought is understandable. The episode I saw expressed the same misconception.


My point is that people watch shows like Lie To Me and pick these ideas up. I'm not saying that I personally think that it is plausible explanation for mentalism effects.

Gregory Edmonds wrote:Hope this helps. I haven't looked at the site, but just in case (and I'll gain the ire of several folks by saying this), there is NO empirical evidence which suggests the claims made by NLP "authorities" are in fact, reality. NLP is (was, actually) a fascinating series of conjecture regarding the unconscious mind, and how it could be successfully accessed through esoteric communication theories. It turned out, however, that in real world application, the theories were nothing but theories.


I agree with you 100% on this (especially the bit about gaining the ire of NLP wizards). I spend a lot of time researching the subject for a book.

Gregory Edmonds wrote:As I've not seen your site (and as it appears to be a commercial?), I probably won't, but mentalism and hypnosis, used by an entertainer (and, to some small degree, even by a therapist) can be very effective. The two fields are a natural mix. Look up the literature on Franz Polgar, who was, I believe, the first to regularly employ both together. It's possible Kreskin developed much of his work on that of Polgar.


I have quite a few of Hungarian friends (who are mentalists) one who is researching a book on Polgar.

My site does contain extracts from my books but I wouldn't say it was a commercial, it's mostly just my musings on aspects on magic and mentalism. Since I put the link in my sig this does seem to classify my site as spam.
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Postby mrgoat » 08/21/10 08:31 AM

Lisa Cousins wrote:There's also a not-to-be-overlooked connection between mentalism, covert hypnosis, and internet forum sock-puppetism, for example:

LIE: I registered for an internet forum with a spam website in my signature line because I want to know how Derren Brown does his tricks.

PLAUSIBILITY: It's a magic forum, and people who have "read so much" about mentalism and covert hypnosis and "read so much" about Derren Brown - yet remain confused nonetheless - will likely be able to clear up the whole matter through the help of a concise internet forum post, if only someone would post one.

CONVINCER: A different guy with his own spam website signature line registers for the forum and delivers up that cloud-clearing concise post.

THE SECRET INGREDIENT: The audience is composed of innocents who would never even suspect the use of deception or perceptual manipulation, not in any aspect of life.

THE POTENTIAL PROBLEM: You might post on the wrong forum, where people routinely consider modes of deception as a part of their continual study - and THEN what would happen?



Oh I miss you so.

:)

Beautiful post.

And to the others, I concede hypnosis exists if by hypnosis you mean 'people pretending to be in a trance and then do what they are told to do because of social conditioning'.
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Postby S. J. Lea » 08/21/10 10:11 AM

Lisa Cousins wrote:
THE POTENTIAL PROBLEM: You might post on the wrong forum, where people routinely consider modes of deception as a part of their continual study - and THEN what would happen?



According to Lybrary

[color:#990000]Most read in category
Mentalism & Spiritism[/color]

1. Ted Annemann
2. Bob Cassidy
3. John Brown Cook & Arthur Buckley
4. Scott Xavier
5. Peter Duffie
6. Richard Webster
7. Simon J. Lea
8. Leo Boudreau
9. Jim Coles

I would expect that most people, as part of their continual study of mentalism would know that I'm not a spammer.

I'm not out to deceive anyone on forums. The OP made a spam post and I responded with a post that - I thought - made the point that as this was a mentalism forum people would see that so-called covert hypnosis is a load of bollocks and that it is obvious that his post was spam. Obviously, on this occaision I didn't get my message across.

I do have a link to my site in my sig (so does mrgoat) but that doesn't mean that I am spamming this forum.
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Postby Gregory Edmonds » 08/28/10 11:37 AM

S.J.

My apologies for misunderstanding your original post. Because I have issues with sitting at the computer (sitting, period, actually), I'm often guilty, I'm afraid, of not catching the beginning of a discussion. Perhaps I'm doing so in this instance, again.

The Lybrary post is interesting, and may reflect sales in which that entity is involved (I guess?). Many of the people listed there are long-time friends, but I'm wondering that the names Max Maven, Larry Becker, Lee Earle, Bascom Jones, Gene Nielsen, Derren Brown, and (well, no sense in going further, I suppose) aren't in the "top ten."

I'm a former editor of the Psychic Entertainers Association's monthly journal (and of a book for the group), and was the first official "historian" for same. These designations, and a couple of bucks, will get me the proverbial cup of coffee in almost any diner. I've also published an item or two about the modern history of mentalism and Spiritualism in a couple of places.

So, no offense intended, please note, but I do question the Lybrary stats if they're supposed to reflect the field at large for the last 30-50 years or so. Perhaps those numbered reflect "most read" in a recent, specific, period of time?

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