Magicians in Trouble

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/12/10 11:32 AM

Just curious. How important do you feel that it is to post every story of a magician accused or convicted of a sex crime?

I received an email challenging me to post a story that I have been aware of for some time, but which I have not made reference to on my site simply because of a lack of a solid story in mainstream news to point to, outside of a short blurb in a police blotter. The email that I received also implied that it wasn't being discussed because of pressure from advertisers, (which is completely untrue BTW). I simply get sick of these stories and keep my reporting on them to bare bones references to online news reporting.

What are your thoughts?


http://bit.ly/9vOTmU
http://bit.ly/9QRdMH
http://bit.ly/aGexGb
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby Raleigh » 08/12/10 11:52 AM

News is news positive or negative . If there is info it should be known in my opinion.
Raleigh
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 01/23/10 12:47 PM
Location: Las Vegas , Nv.

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/12/10 12:13 PM

I understand what you are saying, but there are many stories that I come across daily that have some connection to magic that are not posted simply because they are just not that interesting. In the case of the arrest and conviction of Mr. Pace, there was just nothing to link to reporting on the case.

Typically when I do report on these, it is in the format of "According to The Bummerville Journal, <Insert Quote and Link Here>."

Without that, I'm not just linking to a mug shot or to a prison status search.
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby Seuss » 08/12/10 12:38 PM

I didn't spot the magic / magician in the first link.
Genii Lifetime Subscriber
Co-host Magic On the Side
User avatar
Seuss
 
Posts: 431
Joined: 07/15/09 01:04 AM
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Postby CraigMitchell » 08/12/10 01:14 PM

Dodd ... in the case of the Jim Pace story - it should have been reported. The fact that nothing has been mentioned previously is quite bizarre considering how fast news normally travels ... the lack of available detail is most peculiar ...

http://itricks.com/news/2010/08/jim-pac ... onviction/
User avatar
CraigMitchell
 
Posts: 1188
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Magic

Postby Seuss » 08/12/10 01:31 PM

Oh. um... wow.
Genii Lifetime Subscriber
Co-host Magic On the Side
User avatar
Seuss
 
Posts: 431
Joined: 07/15/09 01:04 AM
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/12/10 01:34 PM

My own view, which I have stated in Genii, is that I now only report on criminal activity when the party is convicted. So, the Jim Pace thing should be reported--it's pretty foul:

Image

He's not going to be out of jail for a long time.

Ditto for the Franky Houdini piece. He's been convicted and people in our community should be made aware.

http://www.qt.com.au/story/2010/04/03/m ... porn-film/

Image
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20009
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Seuss » 08/12/10 01:44 PM

Wow. Pace was apparently plead down from the look of the original charges.

http://pdxmugshots.com/clackamas/mug/james-edward-pace

Odd that I can't find any reporting on this in the media.
Genii Lifetime Subscriber
Co-host Magic On the Side
User avatar
Seuss
 
Posts: 431
Joined: 07/15/09 01:04 AM
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Postby Anthony Vinson » 08/12/10 04:42 PM

Not a terrible policy, Richard, but following that logic we'd never have heard about OJ's little escapade, at least until after the civil trial.

Dodd, I agree with your decision to hold off publishing a story until it has been posted in at least one mainstream publication. Otherwise it would seem to be speculation at best and sensationalism at worst. Police blotters are simply running commentaries of incidents and such that occurred during a particular shift and not all entries make it into the journals. Personally I am not interested in reading the Weekly World Magic Newswire - Maintain your integrity and ignore the detractors!

Funny, my wife and I were discussing a similar topic earlier this week. While on a business trip to Chattanooga, TN she picked up a copy of Just Busted, a weekly newspaper that prints the mugshots, names and charge of everyone arrested in surrounding counties the previous week. Everything from aggravated assault and rape to driving without a license and public intoxication. Page after page of smiling, snarling, scowling, sad faces... While a disclaimer advocating "innocence till proven" is listed on several pages, in the court of public opinion the verdict is in the moment someone recognizes a face. Or a name...
Anthony Vinson
 
Posts: 133
Joined: 07/10/10 12:34 PM
Location: Georgia

Postby Tabman » 08/12/10 04:55 PM

Anthoyn Vinson wrote:...she picked up a copy of Just Busted, a weekly newspaper that prints the mugshots, names and charge of everyone arrested in surrounding counties the previous week....


Any magicians?
User avatar
Tabman
 
Posts: 917
Joined: 03/17/09 02:25 PM
Location: TC and KOZ at the Funny Bone

Postby Brad Henderson » 08/12/10 05:01 PM

I think Phillip and Henry take out an ad in the magazine, but that's all.
Brad Henderson
 
Posts: 2280
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: austin, tx

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/12/10 06:03 PM

CraigMitchell wrote:Dodd ... in the case of the Jim Pace story - it should have been reported. The fact that nothing has been mentioned previously is quite bizarre considering how fast news normally travels ... the lack of available detail is most peculiar ...


I simply couldn't find any more info that OI had already posted, a booking photo and a police blotter. There was no news article that I could find. I shared this info with Justin at iTricks by text yesterday who was totally unaware of it before that.

This was the only one of these stories that I had yet to post, simply because of a lack of news coverage to link to.

It has been discussed in Penguins forums as early as June and Jim's wife even entered into the discussion. There was also thread at the Magic Cafe for a bit that was later deleted, so it wasn't as if no one was talking about it.

In fact, I do maintain a Magicians Offenders entry which is updated as convictions occur. It even includes Infantino who was sentenced this year, but I haven't seen it discussed since his arrest was announced. Oh, BTW, the GA magician listed above and in my entry, please guilty and was sentenced to 20 years as well. These stories just make me sick!

The Pace story was added this morning to that same entry.
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby Tim Ellis » 08/12/10 06:46 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:My own view, which I have stated in Genii, is that I now only report on criminal activity when the party is convicted.


I agree with that policy Richard.

A few years ago I was prevented from joining a local magic club because the President (who doesn't like me) circulated rumours that two members had "restraining orders" against me. He refused to present any proof of his allegations (as they were false), but most people simply believed him and didn't want to hear any more about it (like the fact that it wasn't true).

There is way too much gossip in the magic world already, no need to add to it.
www.AustralianMagician.com
www.TimEllisMagic.com
www.MagicUnlimited.com

User avatar
Tim Ellis
 
Posts: 829
Joined: 07/11/08 04:08 PM
Location: Victoria

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/12/10 07:32 PM

Tim, if that happened to you in the United States, you would have good grounds for a lawsuit against the president of the local club.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20009
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Tim Ellis » 08/12/10 08:23 PM

I tried to resolve the matter diplomatically, as everyone in the club was feeling "uncomfortable" and just wanted the situation to go away.

Things calmed down, then heated up again and by the time I decided to pursue this guy with a lawyer I discovered I only had a two year window of opportunity within which to sue him and it had already expired.

It's sad to think that some situations in a magic club have to be resolved by lawyers. I'll know to act more swiftly next time instead of assuming common sense will prevail.
www.AustralianMagician.com
www.TimEllisMagic.com
www.MagicUnlimited.com

User avatar
Tim Ellis
 
Posts: 829
Joined: 07/11/08 04:08 PM
Location: Victoria

Postby Smurf » 08/12/10 08:45 PM

[size:14pt]"Not a terrible policy, Richard, but following that logic we'd never have heard about OJ's little escapade, at least until after the civil trial."
[color:#000099]
That is reason enough to apply Richard's policy. This country wasted way too much time on that.[/color][/size]
Smurf
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 05/31/10 11:23 AM

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/12/10 09:06 PM

I do agree with Richard for the most part. With rare exception, I report on convictions, not on accusations. JP is a perfect example. You cannot ignore a story getting that much media attention and so ... yes.. we reported on it throughout
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby erdnasephile » 08/12/10 09:32 PM

I agree with Dodd--IMHO, if a magician is in legal trouble and the story is picked up on by major newspapers/wire services, then I think it is not unreasonable to report the story, regardless of the status of the trial.

It's part of the deal--if you make yourself a public figure and things go bad, it sometimes comes out publicly. One has no reasonable expectation of privacy in such situations--court records are public and it comes with the territory.

To put a lid on a legitimate story (and RK and DV have NOT done this IMHO) would seem to run counterintuitive to the purpose and nature of the free press.

The only caveat is the press should also be just as quick to report exonerations (e.g., Forte, Copperfield, etc.) as well. In those two cases, I think the magic press behaved very responsibly in this area.
User avatar
erdnasephile
 
Posts: 1869
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/12/10 10:08 PM

I didn't report on Forte's arrest or the allegations against Copperfield, but I did write something when both were cleared of charges. These types of accusations fester in peoples' minds and until the person is found guilty, it's best to avoid being the infection that causes the pus.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20009
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/12/10 10:23 PM

Hear, Hear!
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby Brad Henderson » 08/12/10 10:36 PM

mmmmmm, pus
Brad Henderson
 
Posts: 2280
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: austin, tx

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/12/10 10:43 PM

Meh
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby Doc » 08/13/10 02:14 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I didn't report on Forte's arrest or the allegations against Copperfield, but I did write something when both were cleared of charges. These types of accusations fester in peoples' minds and until the person is found guilty, [color:#FF0000]it's best to avoid being the infection that causes the pus.[img:center]http://i33.tinypic.com/fuaoea.jpg[/img] [/color]
User avatar
Doc
 
Posts: 89
Joined: 01/22/10 07:53 PM

Postby 000 » 08/13/10 09:20 AM

Scary to think what material Pace could come up with in the slammer over the next dozen years. ( Murphys stocks 11 items of his )

Also, there is no way I will perform his creation, 'The Web' again - it would remind me of the creep too much.
000
 
Posts: 563
Joined: 04/16/08 10:01 AM

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/13/10 09:40 AM

Magic Newswire wrote:Just curious. How important do you feel that it is to post every story of a magician accused or convicted of a sex crime?
...


How, specifically, is such posting/discussion useful to our community or advancing the craft of magic?
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6534
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Joe Mckay » 08/13/10 09:42 AM

What's the big deal with Sodomy? It has being legal here in the Uk for the past 40 years...

Am I missing something?

Joe
Joe Mckay
 
Posts: 464
Joined: 04/13/08 06:56 AM

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/13/10 10:02 AM

Yes, Joe, the matter is consent.
https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.405
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6534
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Joe Mckay » 08/13/10 10:21 AM

Ah - I see...

Thanks for clearing that up, Jonathan.

Joe
Joe Mckay
 
Posts: 464
Joined: 04/13/08 06:56 AM

Postby Gregory Edmonds » 08/13/10 10:48 AM

Having been both a journalist and police public information officer, my view on this issue is in keeping with Dodd's and Richard's. Yes, the OJ fiasco was a blot on this country's (the United States) criminal justice history. In my experience, though, people like Mr. Simpson will usually offend again (and he did, and will likely never again see the proverbial light of day outside of prison walls).

Abuse stories of magicians (priests, youth ministers, Scoutmasters, and those of similar ilk) are particularly puerile, and are always "newsworthy." It's a quite sad but undeniable fact that pedophiles are drawn to such positions, as these positions provide them ready access to victims. We are compelled, however, to tread lightly when broaching information about the presumed guilt of another. In my aforementioned role as a public information officer, I have, of course, been responsible to insuring (as the United States Constitution establishes) that the public be informed, by way of its media representatives, when an individual has been charged with a heinous crime. The national registry of sexual offenders also, legally, requires such reporting, where and when applicable.

When such people are arrested, "the media" will naturally exploit the opportunity to sell advertising space (another sad, but true, fact) by reporting the sometimes-sordid details. Should these people be "exposed?" Of course they do, if they did what they're accused of doing. I'll remind those over the age of 40 of a case which set the precedent for the ridiculous "OJ coverage." The case received almost equal exposure in the press, and held captive the collective imagination of the country.

"Imagination" is the key word, in this event. The trial to which I allude is that of the then-infamous "McMartin Preschool" family. "Expert" witnesses daily rendered their captivating "testimony." Each told of how the children involved were maltreated, how "Satanism" (later recognized, along with all of the other allegations, to be absolute fantasy) played a major role in the event, as the nation told of ritualized abuse going on day after day.

In the end, it turned out the first couple of children interviewed, had followed the "coaching" of the adult accusers, and the rest of the children -- in true Salem Witch Trial fashion -- seeing the attention their peers were receiving, joined in. Absolutely every allegation, "fact" presented and story the children (with capable assistance of "professional" counselors) was proven untrue.

Still, the country awaited each day's testimony with baited breath. The trial was televised, and made headlines throughout the Western world, for three years. Some of the trials themselves exceeded six years in length.

When the media circus was over, the McMartin family's reputations, finances and LIVES were irrevocably ruined. All this, because a couple of children in Manhattan Beach, California, had their imaginations stoked by people who should have known better.

Allegations are only allegations, and convictions are final "proof" in the eyes of the law. Even then, of course, as we've discovered through the admission of DNA evidence over the last two decades, is often fantasy as well.

If you elect to spread rumored charges against a fellow magician (or any other human being), and you do so as a media representative (even in the tiny "world" of magic), you expose yourself, your fiduciary associates and your advertisers to potential libel suits, a reputation of being a rumormonger, and a lifetime of knowing (if, in the end, the allegations -- recall Mr. Copperfield and Mr. Forte -- are proven false) that you've injured a fellow person (and in our instance, performer or creator of illusions), quite possibly beyond repair.

Long ago, the fact was established that human beings who "believe" a thing to be true, will continue believing said thing, subsequent facts to the contrary notwithstanding. Throughout the time since, this fact has been maintained in psychological theory, and proven beyond question. We, of all people, should very carefully wrestle "illusion" from the realm of reality, when something as important as another's literal life is possibly at stake.

The attitudes established by Richard and Dodd (only mentioned because of the stance they've taken herein) are the correct attitudes. Rumors are rumors, and always will be. Yes, there are those with evil intend lurking amongst us (probably even now), but as I previously noted, time will tell in the end. I applaud these gentlemen for their respective positions.

Greg Edmonds
Celebrate the Art of Magic
Gregory Edmonds
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 07/22/10 10:57 AM
Location: South Carolina, USA

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/13/10 10:55 AM

Thank you for a very thoughtful post Greg!
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/13/10 11:08 AM

Not sure we are ready to study the thing we call compartmentalization in this community. I am however about ready to start a project to record and study how we relate to magic. Compartmentalization and leakage between compartments may have to wait - no rush IMHO.

Again, I ask folks - how specifically does discussing the awkward and private matters of others help us as a community or in advancing our craft? Without a cogent answer to that question we are left with, and not well served by IMHO, what amounts to moral gangrene or a contagion as regards how we perceive each other or are perceived by our audiences.
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6534
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby KirkG » 08/13/10 12:11 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Again, I ask folks - how specifically does discussing the awkward and private matters of others help us as a community or in advancing our craft? Without a cogent answer to that question we are left with, and not well served by IMHO, what amounts to moral gangrene or a contagion as regards how we perceive each other or are perceived by our audiences.


Jon,

Unless we know about something, we cannot fix it or protect ourselves against it.

As an example, I would want to know if the person advertising for sharing a room at a convention was manic depressive, violent, a sex offender and a pedophile when I was a younger, poorer student of magic. Specific enough?

How about sending Junior members of the local club to have their publicity pictures taken and inadvertently having put them in the sphere of control of a pedophile? Better to know, don't you think?
KirkG
 
Posts: 163
Joined: 08/26/08 08:10 PM

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/13/10 12:30 PM

Kirk, those arguments are (i hope) specious and beg other questions I hope we don't have to address.

I simply detest the "think of the children" approach to fear-mongering. "Who will rid us of this meanacing pedophile" indeed.
Mundus vult decipi
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6534
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby M.Lee » 08/13/10 12:37 PM

Wasn't Bob Markwood aka NY "Magic Ambassador' also involved w/ children ?
his wife is Anne White the Magic photographer...wonder are they still married ??

ML
M.Lee
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 04/07/10 12:57 PM

Postby Raleigh » 08/13/10 12:40 PM

The real mystery here ..... how people are willing to give up their entire life and destroy many others all because they can't control their sexual needs ! Amazing , I suppose maybe it's a sickness they can't control ?????
Raleigh
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 01/23/10 12:47 PM
Location: Las Vegas , Nv.

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/13/10 12:47 PM

Raleigh wrote:The real mystery here ..... how people are willing to give up their entire life and destroy many others all because they can't control their sexual needs ! Amazing , I suppose maybe it's a sickness they can't control ?????


Thanks, i almost lost my lunch reading that. :( "the real mystery here" is whether you are so cognitively young that you don't understand what you wrote as regards presuppositions and want of education or ...yes please let that have been a troll.

Dodd, you have your example of why this topic is creepy.

Richard-Dustin-Jim - this is not doing much for my opinion of our lowest common denominator.
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6534
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Magic Newswire » 08/13/10 12:48 PM

M.Lee wrote:Wasn't Bob Markwood aka NY "Magic Ambassador' also involved w/ children ?
his wife is Anne White the Magic photographer...wonder are they still married ??
ML


On February 16th, 2000, in the 268th District Court of Fort Bend County, Texas, Robert Markwood was found guilty of indecency with a minor. He was sentenced by Judge Brady Elliott to 12 years in prison.
User avatar
Magic Newswire
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: 03/29/08 12:32 PM

Postby Raleigh » 08/13/10 01:00 PM

Jonathan,
Funny ... I lose my lunch whenever I see the amount of post you put on here ( not much going on ). Look I simply said it's amazing people are willing to lose their wife , job , kids etc. for the act of sex while also ruining the victims life as well .... chill out ! Why also do you feel the need to insult , You don't know me and your opinion is not as highly valued by others as you may think.
Raleigh
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 01/23/10 12:47 PM
Location: Las Vegas , Nv.

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/13/10 01:04 PM

Raleigh wrote:Jonathan,
Funny ... I lose my lunch whenever I see the amount of post you put on here ( not much going on ). Look I simply said it's amazing people are willing to lose their wife , job , kids etc. for the act of sex while also ruining the victims life as well .... chill out !


Glad to see you're just trolling. :)
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on 08/13/10 01:09 PM, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: no sense in throwing stones at trolls.
Jonathan Townsend
 
Posts: 6534
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Westchester, NY

Postby Raleigh » 08/13/10 01:09 PM

Wow .... Glad too finally put you on my " pay no attention " list ..... So long ! Also noticed you removed some of the insult .... but being who you think you are , you had to leave a little insult in your edit .
Last edited by Raleigh on 08/13/10 01:18 PM, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: As I am done posting on this conversation
Raleigh
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 01/23/10 12:47 PM
Location: Las Vegas , Nv.

Next

Return to Buzz