Ascanio spread

Discuss the tricks and sleights which appear in Genii.

Postby Guest » 09/01/05 04:51 PM

To all,
I would appreciate any input on this slieght. I have trouble with the cards seperating during the spread.

Thanx!
Jorey
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Postby John Carey » 09/02/05 01:51 AM

Hi Jorey,

The ascanio spread can be a tad tricky with new slippery cards.

Try and make sure you have a reasonably firm grip on the outer right and inner right corners of packet(assuming you are right handed)

Also, when making the spread try and make the action a fluid one;almost like the cards are skating off the fingertips,

Ascanio called this move el culebero(please correct spelling if necessary rafael!)
this meant the snake-a careless kind of action

Jon Racherbaumer wrote a book on this move with some applications.
It might still be available through magic inc or magic books by post

Hope I have helped a little Jorey

Regards

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Postby Rafael Benatar » 09/02/05 05:04 AM

Hi John. It spells "El Culebreo" and could translate as "the Wriggle," It was Fred Kaps who called it Ascanio Spread. I am already working on the translation of the next volume of The Magic of Ascanio by Etcheverry, which includes all the versions and handlings of the Ascanio Spread and much more, and should be out next year.
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Postby Jacky Kahan » 09/02/05 06:21 AM

Hello,

please find enclosed some references, if you know some other references i'm very interested to know

here it goes :

Kaps, Fred: Lecture Book
Magic Inc. 9 pages.
Year????
Fred Kaps Twisting the Aces: uses Ascanio spread

Jerry Mentzer, Card Cavalcade N 2
225 pages
Copyright 1974 by Jerry Mentzer
Page 076.Ascanio Spread (Ascanio Arturo de)

Rogers, Mike: The Complete Mike Rogers
A Collection of the Original Material of Mike Rogers, plus various contributions from magical friends
1975
Page 145 Notes on the Ascanio Spread
page 162 Twisting the Aces with the Ascanio Spread: lots of photos

Pabular, Vol 2, N 01, September 1975
Page 154Madness With The Ascanio Spread (Eckl Ed) - Cards

Pabular, Vol 2, N 02, October 1975
Page 168The Ascanio Spread (Robinson Fred) - Cards

Epilogue Special No. 4 - The Ascanio Spread
Copyright 1976

Mentzer, Jerry: Counts, Cuts, Moves & Subtlety
1977/1988, 73pp

Arturo de Ascanio: About the Handling of Double Cards: A Lecture by Ascanio
Copyright 1981
PAge 3 Oil and Water with the Ascanio Spread
Page 5 The "Las Palmas Ascanio Spread"

Apocalypse Vol 5 No 9 Sept 1982
673 Very Nice Oil & Water (Richard Vollmer): another oil & water routine using the Ascanio spread and Elmsley count

Mendoza, John F.: The Mendoza Portfolio No. 1
1983,
Page 9 Tabled Ascanio Spread

Tannen's Magic Manuscript
Volume 8 Issue 6
May/June 1987
The One-handed Partial Ascanio Spread by Ed Hollins - same as two-handed spread but with just one.

Mike Maxwell, Randy Wakeman Presents
Copyright 1989
Page 095..........SMORGASBORD CANNIBALS (OPEC Count... Ascanio Spread... R. W. Cricket Count)

Ouellet, Gary: Close Up Illusions
1990
Page 99 The Paradise Ascanio Spread

Apocalypse Vol 18 No 04 Apr 1995
page 2492 Crazy Card (Doug Edwards): a nice routine using an Elmsley count, simplified Ascanio spread, double cut, and basic handling

Magie Duvivier
Written by Jon Racherbaumer
Illustrated by Ton Onosaka
Edited by Richard Kaufman
Copyright 1996
Page 23 Le Ascanio Spread

Apocalypse Vol 20 No 07 Jul 1997
Page 2817 Jazzy Queens And Kings (Richard Vollmer): a variation on Jazz Aces; requires Elmsley Counts, Ascanio Spreads, and short Olram variation

Rhod, Daniel: Techno Card Magic
2001
Page 41 Ascanio Spread

Giobbi, Roberto Giobbi: Card College 3
year????
Chapter 32: False Display Counts, Part 2
The Ascanio Spread
The Ascanio Spread Fan

hope this helps,
Jacky
www.magicbooks.be
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Postby Guest » 09/02/05 10:45 AM

Thanx to all who replied!

It seems I've always shied away from card stuff where one must show 5 as 4,6 as 4, etc. through a veriety of slieghts: Ascanio, buckle spread, etc. Lately though, I've been trying again after "giving up" and have been having some success. Which brings me to the point of this entry. I studied with Curtis Cam in Hawaii for three years and I now work with Dick Newton. One thing that Curtis always tried to instill in me was, WHY. Why would one do that? What's the point in that? I know a lot of what we "do" can be questioned, it's just, well, maybe I just need to hear from some of you about how you get past a "move" that doesn't quite seem to make sense. What comes to mind is the Paul Harris effect: Limo Service. Which I do, and I love it. For some reason I can't seem to come up with a reason to grab hold of the card box. (I know you have to load the cards under the box, but, other than the ending it make no sense to pick up the box) Paul is my favorite and I've been working on his stuff for about 6 years. Maybe I'm just trying to be too perfect. Which is what my girlfriend tells me. Thoughts?
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Postby Guest » 09/02/05 10:49 AM

Funny enough, it is still not well known to the fraternity, that the so called *Ascanio Spread* is the creation of Eddy Taytelbaum from the NL.

I personally saw him doing it way back in 1959 in Enschede Holland at their local convention! :D

Same goes for the *Flipper Coin* where the origin is credited to Bob (Robert) Swadling from the UK.

This in reality is the creation of Phil Postma-who died this year- from the NL, inspired by a simpler/crude version made by Eddy Taytelbaum..
I still have my flipper made by Eddy in the early 1960s!

I don't say however, that Swadling and Ascanio didn't *invent* their stuff independantly -it happens all the time-, I just postulate, Eddy and Phil where FIRST!
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Postby Guest » 10/03/06 07:42 AM

Hi Rafael, nice knowing that you are working on the second volume of the Magic of Arturo, I think that you are one of the few that understood the spirit of the Master. Keep well and let me know when the book will be out.
Davide
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/03/06 08:40 AM

Volume Two of the Ascanio books has already been published--it first appeared at FISM and has already been reviewed in Genii.
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/03/06 08:47 AM

... and it is terrific. The Ascanio Spread, as named by Fred Kaps, is detailed in so many ways to make your head spin.
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Postby Guest » 10/03/06 10:44 AM

Watch Fred Kaps routine using the famous spread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIOcugPweoA
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Postby Guest » 10/03/06 12:19 PM

Thanks for sharing the link, Mats. Looks really cool. It's a twisting aces routine I will use.

BTW, here is my link to Ascanio Volume Two. Please contribute!

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ ... 0;t=000264
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/03/06 02:13 PM

This is not a criticism of Mats Kjellstrom, since he probably didn't learn the move from Ascanio, but that YouTube video looks nothing like the Ascanio Spread as it was performed by its creator.

The cards opened (spread) all at once with a wriggling movement, like a flower opening. There was none of this business about pulling the cards into view one at a time.
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Postby Guest » 10/03/06 09:51 PM

The real work, instruction video for A. Spread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q50eV0h2Izk

Richard K: my handling with the cards is not exactly as the original style. I always change it to fit my performing style...
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 10:38 AM

To Mats Kjellstrom,
As Richard K points out, your handling is not the original Ascanio Spread. However, your handing looks really good and I thank you for posting the link. I look forward to studying the 2nd Ascanio Book.

When I hear the words "Ascanio Spread" I always feel a little embarassed. When I was only 18 or 19, I "reinvented" the move. My handling was a little different, but basically Ascanio's concept. I was too green to know it had already been created. I wrote it up, with some illustrations and gave it to Neil Foster. Neil was a marvelous magician, but not a card man, and he ran it in the New Tops. Of course we had lots of magicians contact us and point out that the move already existed.

Dennis Loomis
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/29/06 11:35 AM

Juat to set the record straight on Ascanio's move.

Matt Corin and I were in Europe with Fred Kaps and we were shown and taught the "spread" by Ascanio himself. He, talking to us, likened it to MICE RUNNING AROUND in your hands.

Kaps then devised the twisting aces routine.

Matt and I then flew back to the USA and stopped off in Chicago where we WERE THE FIRST to show this to Ed Marlo. He had never seen or heard of the move.

Matt also showed Marlo his card change (a face up card on the table changes as you wave your hand over it).

Not long after that Marlo published Matt's move without permission or credit.

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Postby Guest » 10/30/06 03:29 AM

it seems marlo did this a lot, any more moves you may know of that marlo stole?
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Postby Guest » 10/30/06 10:22 AM

Yes, Matt Corin did show a card change that he had independently developed. Marlo, however, had a similiar change, which is documented on a film shot by Art Weygandt (that includes a lot of color changes)in the late 60s. (This footage can be seen in the recent DVD put out by Dave Solomon.) Matt's change was put into Genii magazine. I published Marlo's in Kabbala as the "Eidetic Change." Both version appeared about the same time.

Marlo should have said something to Corin at the time; however, he often did NOT tell people of ideas and moves he had developed in the past, especially if the item was being "held back" (which was often the case in the old days). However, if he eventually saw somebody doing something that was already in his notes, it was strong incentive to publish the item. This phenomenon happens more frequently than it should in magicdom.

For example, there is a move (another color change) that appeared in three sources during the same month that are identical. One was by Father Cyprian, another by Daryl, and another by Al Smith (UK). Coincidence? Probably. However, such coincidental reinvention often leads to speculation that somebody is "stealing" another's idea.

The documented film mentioned earlier supports the fact that Marlo independently had the color change prior to Corin. Since Corin did not see this film, it is likely that he came up with his version on his own. At least I gave him the benefit of the doubt in this regard. Also, Marlo had shown me the "Eidetic Change" in Crandall's bar in 1969. This is when I asked him if I could eventually publish it. This was long before Marlo sessioned with Biro and Corin.

I hope this clarifies this particular case?

Onward...
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/30/06 10:25 AM

Sounds good to me.
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Postby Guest » 10/30/06 10:51 AM

Speaking of the Ascanio Spread, it took its name as most magicians now know from Arturo de Ascanio, the late card maestro from Madrid, Spain. Prior to a FISM Convention in Amsterdam (July-1970)where it got wide exposure, the technique was sub rosa. If you find the meme concept [Richard Dawkins]useful, the Ascanio Spread (as a technical meme) was carried back to America by four American magicians: Del Cartier, Mike Rogers, Herb Zarrow, and Pete Biro. Then, slowly but surely, the contagion took hold. As Ken Beale later wrote, the Ascanio Spread had considerable underground circulation among cardmen between 1970 and 1976.

Ascanio wrote a treatise in Spanish in 1970 and took a number of photographs. This manuscript was given to Del Cartier, who passed it to Mike Rogers, whose initial plan was to translate it and publish it in M-U-M. Finding a translator proved problematic. When I heard about the problem, I offered to get it translated. Unfortunately, the translator was a Spanish woman who ran a Montessori School in Metairie, Louisiana and knew nothing about card magic. Nevertheless, the crude translation was good enough for me to write a short manuscript. When it was completed, I passed it on to Lloyd Jones. I subsequently planned to visit Jones in Oakland, California to assist in the book's production. The trip never materialized and Jones gave the manuscript to Ken Beale, who eventually left the West Coast and returned East. At this stage, The Ascanio Spread remained dormant until 1976.

In the meantime, the meme contagion continued. When Brother John Hamman lectured in New Orleans (November-1971), I showed him the handling of the Ascanio Spread that Derek Dingle showed me. This used a Biddle Grip, unlike the lengthwise grip used by Ascanio (which is seen in the original photographs). I later applied the technique to a packet trick based on previous work by Ralph Gironda (a.k.a. Karl Fulves) and Lin Searles. The packet trick, called The Upturned One, was a version of Twisting the Aces except at the end the backs change color. Hamman liked the effect and subsequently applied the technique to a trick he titled the Hamman Surprise and published it in The Pallbearers Review (Summer-1972) as part of the Hamman Folio. This was the first published explanation of the Ascanio Spread.

The next book to publish the technique was Card Cavalcade II (1974) where it is used in an effect by Paul Swinford.

Roger Smith, editor of The Necromancer, published his K-S Control System in September of 1971. This manuscript featured what Smith called the K-S Move (Klondike Shuffle Move, which is a bastardized form of the Ascanio Spread. Smith visited New Orleans during the early part of 1971 and demonstrated the so-called K-S Move. At the time I told him it looked similar to the Ascanio Spread. It was slightly different, but it was also inferior. I sensed that Smith wanted to jump the gun (as Marlo later observed). Sure enough, when I read Smith's manuscript I discovered an item called Twisting the Red Aces (Blue!) on page 17. No permission was given to include this effect, although Smith wrote:

The basic idea of this effect was shown to me by Jon Racherbaumer, who informs me that the basic components of the effect were developed by other people, among them being Lynn Searles.

In the Spring of 1972 Pete Biro was in New Orleans for a lecture. During a private session I showed him the Rogers' routine with my added bits. Biro was enthusiastic and took some quick notes. The color-changing blow-off took him completely by surprise. Biro wrote Fred Kaps and told him about the routine. Kaps worked on it and his version appeared in his lecture notes as the Fred Kaps Version of Twisting the Aces, Using the Ascanio Spread. (These lecture notes were prepared by Pete Biro) Biro also showed the routine to Vernon and the Magic Castle crowd. The technique spread (pun intended) like wild fire.

So, as you can see, the ancestral connections to this technique and some of the applications forms a crazy quilt.

So it goes...

The original mss. THE ASCANIO SPREAD is out of print. I plan to put it on my Website as an e-book (free to subscribers), although I will probably re-issue a few hard copies for those who like artifacts. Otherwise, there are many other book books out there, especially the new ones devoted to Ascanio's work.

Onward...
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Postby NCMarsh » 10/30/06 11:45 AM

Jon,

Thank you!

Best,

N.
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Postby Leonard Hevia » 11/29/06 06:42 PM

As for the provenance of the Ascanio Spread, Bill Palmer wrote that this move is mis-attributed to Ascanio. According to Palmer, Eddie Taytelbaum showed this move to Fred Kaps and Piet Forton at a private session in the Netherlands in the late 1950s. Kaps was touring Europe at that time and showed it to Ascanio.

Palmer was personally informed about this by Piet Forton...wow.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/29/06 11:24 PM

I really can't imagine Ascanio stealing this sleight.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 11/29/06 11:30 PM

And why is this information just seeing the light of day over 30 years later?
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Postby Rafael Benatar » 11/30/06 03:57 AM

The basic concept of the Ascanio Spread is fairly simple and, as such, it is likely to have been invented long before and bound to being reeinvented. The important thing Ascanio contributed is his particular handling.

The same happens with other moves like the Shuttle Pass. What David Roth contributed is a very ingenious and deceptive handling for the old concept of susbtituting a coin (I think it appears in Sachs as "The Pass"). Yet many magicians call any substitution The Shuttle Pass even if they don't use David's handling.

Even though Ascanio originally wrote an extensive article with precise finger positions, he later favored a more general, less contrived explanation. I wrote it up for his lecture notes and we went over every detail. I checked it all out with him later, when I asked his permission to include several of his handlings in one of my video tapes.

Arturo agreed that the general attitude counts more than the exact finger positions. He once told me it's like the Macarena song, which originally had a little flamenco swing to it, but then people learn it in steps: one, two, three, four, and it becomes something square and mechanic.

The speed at which the cards are spread depends largely on the context. The fastest way would be as a casual reminder of something the spectators are already convinced of: "remember, all red." The cards are spread smoothly but fairly fast, apparently at once "as if it didn't matter how." This is a phrase from my write-up that Ascanio was very pleased with.

Basically, you would spread the cards and close them in a second or two. Depending on the routine, sometimes Ascanio would end up arranging the cards in a fan (as in Oil and Water) or set them out on the table with one of his incredible lay-down techniques.

Tamariz and Giobbi have versions of The Cannibals in which the spread is presented as a ritual dance the cannibals did after eating a missionaire. In this case, the thing obviously takes a different shape.

I personally feel that if you learn the exact finger positions it will take some time to get the hang of the move. I would rather reccommend starting from an attitude that makes sense (merely a gesture) and let your fingers find the way to do it.
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Postby Leonard Hevia » 12/04/06 05:29 PM

Hi Dustin--I read a post on the origin of the Ascanio Spread that Mr. Palmer had posted on that "other" magic forum. I happened upon it about six months ago and forgot I had read that until I came across this post on the Ascanio Spread. It's certainly possible that Palmer is correct. If so, I'm sure Ascanio added his touches and refinements...I guess I'm thirty years too late on this because I was child back then...
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/04/06 05:57 PM

Leonard,

Im not questioning you at all. I was questioning Bill Palmers account. My gosh, the procedure, under the Ascanio Spread name, has been public knowledge for decades. Im by no means an inner circle kinda guy, but Ive been around a while and I think I would have heard something about this claim if it was ever made public. As far as I know it hasnt. So it begs the question, with all the years that have passed since the move became public, why is Eddy Taytelbaums claim only now, some 30 years after the fact, coming out? I just find that very odd; not impossible, just odd.

As Mr. Benatar said, reinvention is par for the course in this business. After all, I invented the Veezer Count years before I read it in Jerry Mentzers book on counts!

Eddy (dont call me Mister!) Taytelbaum occasionally reads our forum, so I hope he contacts me about this; Eddy? Id love to hear from you on this!

Thanks!
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Postby Guest » 12/05/06 03:10 AM

I haven't spoken to Eddy about this, but I did speak to Tonny van Rhee about it. He was familiar with the situation as well.

Eddy is one of those guys who gets depressed when people pinch his stuff.

Of course, Werner isn't here any more to check on his statement. I heard about this first from him, then I spoke to some of my friends in the NL about it, and they referred me to Tonny.

At the Centenary, I had a long discussion about it with Piet Forton.

All of their stories tallied.

=======================================

I decided I should put this to rest once and for all. I sent Eddy an e-mail asking him to come on to the site and post his side of the story.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/05/06 10:56 AM

Hi Bill,

I don't think Eddy is registered. I have posted for him in the past, so don't be surprised if he asks you to do the same thing.

Thanks!
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/05/06 12:05 PM

I just got an email from Eddy stating he has a new address. So, I'll contact him about it. Stay tooned. :genii:
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/05/06 02:04 PM

Here is Eddy's reply:

Hello Pete :

Thanks for replying to my change of address; In regard to the Ascanio spread I can inform
you that I devised it in the early fifties and showed it to Fred in the company of Pete Forton and maybe Werner Seitz.That time Fred was working often in Spain and he showed it to Ascanio. I must say that Ascanio added a worthwhile addition to the move for which I want to give him credit.His addition was moving one of the cards in the spread like a snake (colebra ) It certainly added to the move. Another guy I showed it to in the fifties was Del Cartier who would always visit me when in Europe. In the same period I also devised the Centre double lift for which Dai complimented me for coming up with such a beautiful move admitting that he never saw it before. I published this in TRICKS.

I made Europe paddleconcious and at times was referred to as Eddy Paddlebaum. One of my all time greatest fans was Werner Seitz to whom I sold the first crude version of the FlipperCoin
now claimed by many. I am also sending a copy of this to Bill who also posed the same question.

Hope this letter finds you enjoying a good health, I remain Sincerely Eddy.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/05/06 04:27 PM

Eddy also invented the three card monte routine many magicians attribute to Mike Skinner (Skinner made a few handling changes).
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/05/06 04:56 PM

Eddy didn't invent the Monte routine: he expanded Theodore DeLand's original "Pickitout" into a longer routine.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/05/06 06:38 PM

My recollection of the Deland trick was that there was no routine: it was a simple effect repeated twice.

If you compare the Taytelbaum routine to the Deland trick, there are many more phases and clever handlings and a real sense of progression and development -- not simply a couple of cute moves.

So, Eddy should get credit for taking the gaffs way beyeond anything Deland ever had. Deland did have a routine.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/05/06 06:39 PM

Whoops-- I meant Deland did NOT have a routine. For those who are interested, a history of all this is included in the Bammo Monte Monster Reloaded.
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/05/06 06:57 PM

My favorite is Ken Brooke's Chase the Ace using jumbo cards ala the Deland's. :genii:
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/06/06 12:21 AM

Thanks Pete; and please thank Eddy for me!

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Postby Guest » 12/07/06 03:01 AM

Eddy stayed at Ren Clark's house for about a month when Ren and I were working on his book, which Ren's estate would not allow to be published.

I was working at Scarborough Faire, which was just south of Fort Worth, so I would go up there and stay the week with Ren. So I got to know Eddy pretty well.

He is a very clever man and quite a craftsman.

I hope he still has my e-mail address. If he has a new address, my e-mail might not have gotten through to him.
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Postby Leonard Hevia » 01/03/07 05:44 PM

Thank you for posting Eddy's reply Pete. I can relax a little now...and thanks to Bill Palmer for originally posting the origins of this beautiful move.
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