Derek Dingle's McDonalds Aces

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Postby cardstuntman » 05/05/10 01:09 PM

I would like to know where the Derek Dingle 100 $ ace routine was printed. Not the one in the Complete Works with 2 cards, but the one with 3.
Thanks
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 05/05/10 01:21 PM

cardstuntman wrote:I would like to know where the Derek Dingle 100 $ ace routine was printed. Not the one in the Complete Works with 2 cards, but the one with 3.
Thanks


Is this about an ace assembly? 4 aces + 12x cards using 3 gaffs?

I saw him do his version of the Hofzinser trick (yes it's that old) when he visited the cafeteria around '76 and liked the Stud Turnover and KM application so I'd also like to know where it's in print.
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Postby cardstuntman » 05/05/10 01:53 PM

Yes, it is. The 3 ace version. He uses Elmsley counts for all three vanishes.

As far as the Hofsiner routine, I don't know Mr. Townsend. Sounds good though, I love everything Derek Dingle.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/05/10 02:09 PM

I don't believe Derek's early handling is in print. He discarded it when he began using the version with two-double faced Aces, which he much preferred.

The routine itself appears to begin with Hofzinser's "The Power of Faith," mid 1800s. He used four double-faced Aces.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 05/05/10 02:18 PM

On a related note, have folks picked up the use of four gaffs (and a variant of the 4x4 card switch) to recover the nicety of the original where you give them a free choice of packet where the cards assemble? IMHO that helps move the trick toward the audience in terms of focus.
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Postby JordanB » 05/05/10 04:00 PM

One of Derek's versions is in print in Genii.

I believe November 2006, with Jon Armstrong on the cover. I could be off a bit though.

Bob White learned it from Derek many years ago and it is the handling that Bob uses. I still use it to this day. I alternate between Dereks handling and Jack Parker's handling (also in Genii) depending on the performance situation.

Edit: It's in the December 2004 issue. Wow...time flies.
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Postby Stan Willis » 05/07/10 08:21 AM

[quote="cardstuntman"]Yes, it is. The 3 ace version. He uses Elmsley counts for all three vanishes.

Are you speaking of repetitive Elmsley Counts (three(3)in a row) with no variation to vanish each of the aces?
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Postby cardstuntman » 05/07/10 01:48 PM

Thanks for the answer... Jordan8.
That is the one.

Stan Willis, Yes, the one where he changes up the counts a little in each vanish.

Thanks again for the replies.
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Postby Stan Willis » 05/07/10 02:35 PM

Stan Willis, Yes, the one where he changes up the counts a little in each vanish.

Thanks again for the replies. [/quote]

OK! Glad you found it!

Best Regards!
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Postby Phil Pearce » 10/02/11 10:57 AM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:On a related note, have folks picked up the use of four gaffs (and a variant of the 4x4 card switch) to recover the nicety of the original where you give them a free choice of packet where the cards assemble? IMHO that helps move the trick toward the audience in terms of focus.


Mr. Townsend,
Do you know where this variation is published? And also, do you know where the cards for this variation can be purchased?
Thanks.

Phil Pearce


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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/02/11 02:19 PM

Phil, there is sleight where you get a break under the cards to be switched in, then get your finger(s) under those cards when about to start the process. You hold the cards to be switched out in one hand and bring them over to the pack. Under cover of bringing the outgoing cards over the pack you lever up the cards from the pack and up to the vertical and against the palm of the hand openly holding the cards that have been displayed. One could argue this is just a broken up "reverse" or Hofzinser type II pass. What happens next is a matter of style and subtlety and can be anything from a simple regrip and squaring action of what appear to be the cards you've displayed before they are again tabled as a packet or even a flip of the cards face up to reveal an immediate transformation. Our literature permitted several to have put their names on the item though a quick search back to what hit print in the early twentieth century will get you back to its roots. IMHO it's probably what nudged Annemann to go for a simpler switch more closely related to the (gambler's) hop, trading a smoother flow of directed action for larger discrepancy in item positions. ;)

The serious student is expected to apply all such things to their explorations of known and classic routines to find what serves them best. From the assembly to wildcard, from poker demonstration to tricks like oil and water - just a tool in the kit one can use.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/03/11 03:43 AM

If you want a version of MacDonald's Aces by Derek Dingle in which you don't use gaffed cards but you can show the aces face up at the beginning and a spectator can really choose the leader packet, see DazzleSnap Aces in CardWork (1981), page 143.

Kaufman (author of this book) writes: "This trick is positively, absolutely, for magician's only. It is designed to fool other people who know what's going on and would be completly wasted on a layman (aside the fact that it's just not worth the work)..."

A good reason for reprinting this book which is excellent.
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Postby Thomas Van Aken » 10/03/11 02:51 PM

Philippe Billot wrote:If you want a version of MacDonald's Aces by Derek Dingle in which you don't use gaffed cards but you can show the aces face up at the beginning and a spectator can really choose the leader packet, see DazzleSnap Aces in CardWork (1981), page 143.


As this routine does not rely on the same principle than the MacDonald'Aces, I think it can hardly qualified as "version of MacDonald'Aces" even if we all know by now that this title is a misnommer.

Thomas


Thtt
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/03/11 03:04 PM

Hello Thomas,

Have you find the correct reference for the so-called Hofzinser/Herrmann Pass?

A part cela, je vous rpond : Exactly!

BUT how can we know that an assembly is a Hofzinser/MacDonald type?

We have to use necessarily DF cards or can we fake a Hofzinser/MacDonald Assembly? Hein ? Hein ?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/03/11 03:10 PM

In order for any routine to be considered a version of the Hofzinser routine, it must use gimmicked cards, usually double-faced cards, but variations also allow for the use of double-ended cards and split-backed cards.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/03/11 03:25 PM

Was there a version of the four of a kind assembly (w/wo a selected packet) that predates Hofzinser's routine?

IE packets - not the "burglers". ;)
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/03/11 04:04 PM

In the classic assembly first described in 1853 by Ponsin in Nouvelle Magie blanche dvoile, explained page 97, after making the four piles, you ask a spectator to choose two piles that you discard, then one of the last two, and of course, you use "the magician choice" to keep the good pile.

The "Macdo" assembly is interesting because Hofzinser used FOUR DF.

Then Verbeck presented (in 1884) first a classic assembly then the same assembly beginning with the Queens face-up (exchange of Queens but we don't know if he used three or four DF).

In 1904, a magician named KAUFMAN (It's not a joke) did a Hofzinser's Assembly with only THREE DF.

Then in 1982, Derek Dingle used only TWO DF.

In DazzledBand Aces, there are no gaff cards but duplicatas but the process looks like a "HofMacdo" assembly.

C'est a l'volution!
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Postby Thomas Van Aken » 10/03/11 04:08 PM

Cher Philippe,

Je regrette que vous sembliez prendre chacun de mes messages comme une attaque personelle.

En ce qui concerne la rfrence relative au saut de coupe Hofzinser/Herrmann, il s'agit probablement de celle que vous mentionnez dans votre dernier message, l'objet de mon intervention tait simplement de rectifier l'imprcision quant au fait qu'un saut de coupe Hofzinser/Herrmann n'est pas toujours synonyme d'un saut de coupe au retournement. Je vous citais cet effet plusieurs exemples de sauts de coupe Hofzinser/Herrmann n'utilisant pas le retournement du jeu comme couverture ainsi que le fait qu'il me semblait me souvenir d'avoir lu que le retournement du jeu avait t ajout dans une description postrieure la premire connue. Mme si cela devait s'avrer inexact, le simple fait que des versions du sauts de coupe Hofzinser/Herrmann n'utilisant pas le retournement du jeu comme couverture aient t publies suffit invalider l'quation saut de coupe Hofzinser/Herrmann gale saut de coupe au retournement.

En ce qui concerne votre question de savoir ce qui caractrise une routine d'as MacDonald, je me range peu ou prou la dfinition de Richard Kaufman, avoir que celle-ci doit utiliser des cartes truques, double faces ou autres; la routine que vous voquez n'utilisant que des cartes ordinaires ne peut donc tre qualifie de MacDonald.

Meilleures saluations

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/03/11 04:18 PM

Please post in English!
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/03/11 04:38 PM

Thomas,

When I write : Hein ? Hein ?, it's not to laugh at you. It's simply because my head is full of citations and I was remembering the way Franois Cavanna often wrote when he wanted to do some humor.

You can write to me in english even if my english is schoolish. It's a good exercice for me.
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Postby Phil Pearce » 10/03/11 05:59 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Phil, there is sleight where you get a break under the cards to be switched in, then get your finger(s) under those cards when about to start the process. You hold the cards to be switched out in one hand and bring them over to the pack. Under cover of bringing the outgoing cards over the pack you lever up the cards from the pack and up to the vertical and against the palm of the hand openly holding the cards that have been displayed. One could argue this is just a broken up "reverse" or Hofzinser type II pass. What happens next is a matter of style and subtlety and can be anything from a simple regrip and squaring action of what appear to be the cards you've displayed before they are again tabled as a packet or even a flip of the cards face up to reveal an immediate transformation. Our literature permitted several to have put their names on the item though a quick search back to what hit print in the early twentieth century will get you back to its roots. IMHO it's probably what nudged Annemann to go for a simpler switch more closely related to the (gambler's) hop, trading a smoother flow of directed action for larger discrepancy in item positions. ;)

The serious student is expected to apply all such things to their explorations of known and classic routines to find what serves them best. From the assembly to wildcard, from poker demonstration to tricks like oil and water - just a tool in the kit one can use.


Thank you Jonathon. I'm assuming you meant "(gambler's) cop", not hop.

I appreciate your input. And while there are so many magician fooler handlings of this effect, I still like the Garcia one.
I admit I have seen only a couple of other versions; perhaps my mind would be changed if I saw the Krenzel handling or some of the others mentioned.


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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/03/11 07:19 PM

Come on over to the Saturday gathering and meet Ken. Say hi. Have a slice of pizza too. :)

The Annemann switch mentioned is, IMHO, closer to the gambler's hop and does not involve palming or holding out cards from the pack. It's a discrepant transfer.
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Postby mrgoat » 10/04/11 05:27 AM

I came to a Saturday meeting about, oh, 10 years ago now. I had never read any of Mr Krenzel's stuff. He sat down with me and did a 20 minute show, just for me. Blew me away. A charming, and generous man.
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Postby Thomas Van Aken » 10/04/11 09:24 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Please post in English!


Did not Max Maven posts a couple of messages in Japanese years ago ?

Just kidding, I just wanted to keep this semi-private in order to avoid further embarrassments to Philippe.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/04/11 09:59 AM

I found in Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 4 (1981) a good idea which permits to do an HofMac Assembly (with DF cards) but at the beginning you can really show that Aces have a back and you haven't to do a switch after.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/04/11 10:49 AM

Thomas: then send him a private message with your email in it so you can carry on your personal conversation elsewhere.

As far as ways to switch in the double-faced cards, 35 years ago I saw Pat Cook do a Collector's routine, and at the end when the selections reappeared between the Aces, the Aces were the double-faced cards. So, you actually used an earlier trick to switch the Aces. It is a brilliant idea.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/04/11 10:49 AM

Something better than a dab of wax and a false count when you set down the indifferent cards later?

Richard, wasn't there a version of the collectors where you used a pass to swap ace packets, singles for interleaved? Citataion for that?
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Postby El Mystico » 10/04/11 11:25 AM

Why bother with gimmicked cards when you can do an ace assembly like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv9Lk3RXU0Q
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Postby mrgoat » 10/04/11 11:43 AM

El Mystico wrote:Why bother with gimmicked cards when you can do an ace assembly like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv9Lk3RXU0Q


Like a young Lennert Green!
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Postby Thomas Van Aken » 10/04/11 01:26 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Richard, wasn't there a version of the collectors where you used a pass to swap ace packets, singles for interleaved? Citataion for that?


Richard describes a version of the collectors using duplicate aces in cardmagic but it is the radical change that is used to switch in interlaced aces.

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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/04/11 03:19 PM

Jonathan, see Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 2 (1977) for this kind of Collectors.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/04/11 06:44 PM

I have no recollection of the routine at all. Is it any good?
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Postby Thomas Van Aken » 10/05/11 03:09 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I have no recollection of the routine at all. Is it any good?


No idee, I never tried it and never saw anybody perform it.
The fact that it required a duplicate set of aces is problably the reason why I never play with it...

In fact you wrote that the idee of using the radical change in a collector's routine is yours but most of the handling details belongs to Darwin Ortiz.

A side note: this routine required a block turnover and you mentions that Darwin uses the pinky count to get the required break but without any further technical detail; this prompt me that start working on the pinky count without having read any description of it.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/05/11 03:15 AM

If you ask for Marlo's routine, it depends what kind of magic you want. It's not the best collectors but if you like a cleverly used of faked cards combined with sleight of hand, you can present this version. it's rather an "exercice de style" than the ultimate version which fools everybody.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/05/11 11:48 AM

Is there an "all clipshift" handling out yet?
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/05/11 12:17 PM

I don't know this term "Clipshift". Is it a specific Pass?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/05/11 12:31 PM

Yes Philippe, it's a one handed reverse pass that also works with small packets.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/05/11 01:08 PM

No, Marlo preconize a Wrist Turn Pass.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/06/11 08:05 AM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Yes Philippe, it's a one handed reverse pass that also works with small packets.

? really, Marlo considered a version that's all based on a one handed pass where you swap in/out single Hcards or small packets? impressive if so. Citation?

Here's a google result set for Chad Nelson's Clipshift from Surfaced. Sorry I can't get to the videos at work and so select a great one for show/tell on it. :(
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