The Latest on Jonathan Pendragon

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/16/09 04:53 PM

This was published today, and gives more details about the original altercation and also about Jonathan's present location.

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local ... 58415.html
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Postby Magic Newswire » 12/16/09 06:01 PM

Thanks Richard. Given the heat that I came under from Charlotte and others for saying anything at all on this story.. I decided to wait for someone else to say something before posting that story.
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Postby Brandon Hall » 12/16/09 06:49 PM

This is just sad all the way around.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/16/09 08:46 PM

Yes, indeed: sad all the way around.
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Postby hugmagic » 12/17/09 12:02 AM

I hope that he gets the help he needs. I have dealt first hand with some of this and it is very hard on all the parties involved.

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Postby Mark.Lewis » 12/17/09 06:49 AM

I am horrified by the awful American habit of discussing cases publicly before they come to trial. How the hell anyone can get a fair trial with this nonsense is beyond me. In Britain such a newspaper article would be plain illegal. It can prejudice a jury.

We British have the sub judice rule. In other words once a case has commenced everyone has to shut up about it so that the accused can get a fair trial.

It really is about time America came under British rule once again. Mind you I am not sure we would want them.
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Postby Magic Newswire » 12/17/09 07:22 AM

Mark.Lewis wrote:I am horrified by the awful American habit of discussing cases publicly before they come to trial. How the hell anyone can get a fair trial with this nonsense is beyond me. In Britain such a newspaper article would be plain illegal. It can prejudice a jury.

We British have the sub judice rule. In other words once a case has commenced everyone has to shut up about it so that the accused can get a fair trial.

It really is about time America came under British rule once again. Mind you I am not sure we would want them.


You've already gone down this road Mark.
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Postby NCMarsh » 12/17/09 07:38 AM

I cringe to see this published in a magic forum.

The comparison for me is this: a co-worker is involved in a possible domestic violence situation. It is one thing for everyone at the office to read about it in the morning paper, it is another for someone to post the articles in the break room (and I can't imagine a company tolerating that kind of behavior).

These are people who have to interact with us professionally. To publicize the private details of their private relationship within our small community (and in their faces) strikes me as uncaring.

There's a lot of talk about "brotherhood" in magic when we want each others' secrets. How about treating each other like brothers (and sisters) when it comes to situations like this?

I get that people are curious, I get that the intention is (I'm sure) not to hurt, I don't get why curiosity is more important than supporting our own (and making a hurtful situation more hurtful doesn't strike me as support).

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/17/09 09:19 AM

Mr. Marsh, the information is freely available on the internet and already linked to by at least one other major magic website.

The information is not publishered HERE. I merely provided a link. So you can blame yourself if you cringed, because YOU clicked on the link.

If you don't like the fact that this type of information is freely available in the US, then you can move to England as Mark suggests.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/17/09 09:30 AM

NCMarsh wrote:I cringe to see this published in a magic forum....


It came from outside our magic world.

IMHO reading that the guy was in both depression and despair with feelings about what it would mean to him IF his wife was having an affair makes it easier to by sympathetic and see his situation as much more human and less bizarre than what was reported much earlier.

About our community... sorry to report we still have folks who have no problem deciding and then announcing that others are dead or publishing works and ideas without permission so ... maybe in a few generations we can focus on human values and get over pretended moral standards.

This is our history. What and how we write of what happens is part of what we leave for others to find.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/17/09 09:46 AM

It was reported in a real newspaper in the real world. Is the "magic world" so insular that it receives no communications from the real world?
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Postby Brandon Hall » 12/17/09 12:33 PM

We are magic enthusiasts discussing magic and magicians on a magic forum. No one is blasting anyone or even making judgements - so far. I see nothing inappropriate. Just my opinion. I would probably be hurt and offended to hear people discussing the situation in a truly "public" forum, however.
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Postby NCMarsh » 12/17/09 01:07 PM

It was reported in a real newspaper in the real world. Is the "magic world" so insular that it receives no communications from the real world?


the reply to the "it's published" argument is contained in the original post:

The comparison for me is this: a co-worker is involved in a possible domestic violence situation. It is one thing for everyone at the office to read about it in the morning paper, it is another for someone to post the articles in the break room (and I can't imagine a company tolerating that kind of behavior).


We are magic enthusiasts discussing magic and magicians on a magic forum.


No, we're posting links to lurid accounts of a relationship in a forum likely to be read by the people in that relationship, their friends, and their professional colleagues.

If people are curious about the case, Google will readily spill all. There is no need to rub it in the faces of those involved.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/17/09 01:15 PM

NCMarsh wrote:...There is no need to rub it in the faces of those involved.


Wow - borderline and boundry issues here. Gertrude is there something you want to tell the audience? Rubbing stuff in people's faces is better accomplished via direct contact or at least direct email or regular mail. What someone writes or posts often reflects more of who they are than upon their stated topic.

So far not even any ill-considered humor at their expense.
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Postby Mark.Lewis » 12/17/09 09:03 PM

Here is information on the sub judice law,

http://www.out-law.com/page-9742
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/17/09 09:09 PM

So, if I read this correctly, all a government needs to do to keep something they would prefer hidden out of the free press is to begin legal proceedings (which can certainly last for a very long time).

Flawed though it may seem to some, Ill stick with our system, thank you.

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Postby Terrence » 12/17/09 09:29 PM

It's also easier in UK to sue for slander, with the burden of proof placed on the defendant. I second a hooray for our system!
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Postby Mark.Lewis » 12/18/09 12:14 AM

Your system is bloody awful and always has been. Probably one of the worst systems in the world. You execute retarded children (and I am not referring to the ones who attend magic camps) and give life sentences to people who steal oranges.

If you can't see the wisdom of the sub judice system then no wonder you have so many miscarriages of justice. In the UK things go wrong too but not quite so often. Cases should be tried in the courtroom not in the press.

When an English nanny was accused of murdering a child in America the British public were horrified by the garish and unfair pre-trial publicity which would have been plain illegal in the UK.

How in God's name is Pendragon supposed to get a free trial when all the publicity and discussion has made everyone's mind up already? For example, from what I have heard I am sure he is as guilty as hell. He wouldn't want me on the jury. But that is exactly the point. In the UK there would have been a complete clampdown on the media and on any speculation on the Genii Forum. He would then have had a free trial without anyone having made their minds up already.

That OJ Simpson circus wouldn't have happened in Britain for example.

No. British is best. Apart from the Magic Circle of course.
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Postby Bill Duncan » 12/18/09 02:07 AM

Mark,
While you have a point, I think its important to consider that the English system, while useful in a small island nation isnt necessary in a country like the United States.

You have to consider the relative sizes of our two nations. There are what five, maybe six hundred people living in the UK nowadays? While in the good old YouEssOfAaaye we have billions and billions of people (many of whom cannot even read) so there is no shortage of folks who have never heard of Jon and Char, and have not yet made up their minds.
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Postby BlueEyed Videot » 12/18/09 02:12 AM

Being a huge fan of the Pendragons, all I can say is I'm really sad about the whole mess. I wooed my girlfriend (now Mrs. Hart) with a visit to the Castle to see "the most amazing trick in magic"--as I told her--and the Pendragons did not disappoint.
Jon & Char, we love you both and hope things get better in a hurry.
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Postby RobertAllen » 12/18/09 02:15 AM

Bill and Mark: careful or you're going to get some soot on yourselves.
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Postby Mark.Lewis » 12/18/09 02:46 AM

I have no idea what this Allen personage is chattering about. Methinks he is trying to use Jonathon Townsend as a role model.

Mr Duncan is perfectly correct though about Americans not being able to read. I also note that the few that can are not able to spell correctly either. I have utterly no idea why they insist on spelling in a different manner than we British who after all invented the language that they are trying to speak in a dreadful nasal twang. In my upcoming book I will not tolerate any American spelling in it.

Britain has far more people than the US does within a smaller area. I am not sure which state Pendragon is from but I guarantee that it is far bigger than Britain and has far fewer people. Thus the sub judice rule should be brought in immediately.

Presumably the people who read the newspaper article quoted come from the same State and could conceivably be asked to serve on a jury. They will have made up their mind already and go into the case with a bias.

Not cricket, chaps.
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Postby Ruben Padilla » 12/18/09 02:58 AM

On this and other forums it gets frustrating to inquire about a public and admittedly unfortunate news item only to get lambasted from the self-appointed Moral Police about how disrespectful and uncouth it is to make such inquiries.

We're friends (or so I like to think), and this forum amounts to a virtual water cooler for me - I check it when I come home from work or when I'm lounging on weekends and I relish the casualness that exists. I like knowing that I can say out loud, "Hey, did you hear about...?", or, "Can you believe what's going on with...?", and we do what people do - we chat, gossip, congregate, shoot the breeze, speculate, conjecture, etc.

There are no diaper-laden baby magicians who will one day judge us by our insensitivity, just as there are no future golfers gearing up to condemn those who are currently burning up the golfing forums about their comrade Tiger.

It's fun, interesting, and immediate. Junk food for the mind, maybe, but if an elephant walks into the room, it just seems stupid not to say, "Hey check out the elephant! That poor, unfortunate, troubled, depressed elephant..."
We can still be sensitive and cordial - there's no reason to be mean. But I'm curious, and my curiosity is as valid and worthy of satisfaction as anybody else's objection to it.

With that in mind, I'm wondering, does anybody think that if Jonathan gets his act together and responds to treatment that Charlotte will take him back and the act that we so enjoy will one day take the stage again?

That would be really cool...

Oh, yeah. One more thing. The whole notion of being "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to us (outside parties). It was never meant to. It's a procedural mandate that only applies inside a courtroom. Outside the halls of justice (which is where we are on this forum), we can presume all we want. And we do. Let's just be polite about it, shall we?

If, by chance, one or more of us gets recruited for jury duty for this particular case then "The System" will do it's job of asking us the pertinent questions and weeding us out, as appropriate.

Mudslingers - throw gently, please...
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Postby Mark.Lewis » 12/18/09 03:55 AM

Sorry old chap. This is not a "water cooler". This site comes up search engines all the time. And so do the prejudical remarks. As for the possibility of Charlotte taking Jonathon back I shall make a psychic prediction that it ain't gonna happen. I know these things.

As for jury duty nobody on this forum should be allowed on the jury. If I were the judge I certainly wouldn't allow it after you have all been discussing him and reading the article about him. But the reason I would not allow anyone on here to be a jury member is that you are all magicians. That alone does not make you an impartial observer.
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Postby mrgoat » 12/18/09 05:04 AM

OK Mark. We get your point. You think the US legal system sucks.

Careful about going on and on and on about it though. You are sounding like Bishop.
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Postby Tom Ecclestone » 12/18/09 05:55 AM

Dustin Stinett wrote:So, if I read this correctly, all a government needs to do to keep something they would prefer hidden out of the free press is to begin legal proceedings (which can certainly last for a very long time).

Flawed though it may seem to some, Ill stick with our system, thank you.

Dustin


It doesn't work that way, it is almost always lawful to report a civil court case, so the press would report the content of the court case. They just couldn't comment on it in a prejudicial manor.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 12/18/09 07:51 AM

then you can move to England as Mark suggests


Technically, Mark's Scottish. And Scots law is even more funky than the watered down English version.

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Postby Mark.Lewis » 12/18/09 10:42 AM

mrgoat wrote:OK Mark. We get your point. You think the US legal system sucks.

Careful about going on and on and on about it though. You are sounding like Bishop.



Tommyrot. I am sounding more like Mr Goat than Mr Bishop. Glenn innocently irritates people. You and I both know we do it deliberately. It is part of our glorious British heritage.

For some odd reason I feel inclined to comment on Canadians now that I have been rude about Americans. They are the oddest people. You can't insult them. They always smile sweetly and agree with you. The thing that really infuriates me about Canadians is that they are so nice to the people they can't stand. They show great nastiness and animosity to the people they dislike but always do so behind their backs. When they come face to face with the person they look like they are best buddies. False hypnocritical politeness. We British tell them to their face that we can't stand them.

There is a great deal to be said for British rudeness. As for Americans if they don't like you they either sue you or shoot you.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/18/09 11:06 AM

Mr. Lewis will make no further statements in this thread.
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Postby Kevin Connolly » 12/18/09 11:40 AM

Thanks Richard.
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Postby Jim Riser » 12/18/09 12:52 PM

For years I have followed the progress and savored the successes of the duo known as The Pendragons. Whenever possible, my wife and I would catch another performance by this wonderful magic team. Who can forget Jonathan lifting Char high overhead during the suspension? His linking rings routine was pure beauty. Their sub trunk became another masterpiece. Char was an equal on stage. She was the star. Char could do things no other female seemed capable of doing. Apparently this was the perfect magic team.

The first hint of trouble in paradise for me was noticed when viewing their DVD set. The info in these discs is priceless but the overall tone was extremely depressing. Jonathan would cut off Char when she was explaining something. It became obvious that she knew the act better than he. It was obviously the end of The Pendragons. It appeared that they had given up and both had put on a few pounds. To me - a big fan - this was saddening.

Much can be learned from the recent events surrounding this pair. As I read the details in the press and police reports, I make mental notes to myself - "Do not try this at home", "Avoid that mistake", "Do not treat my wife in this manner", "Seek out medical treatment when needed", etc. This whole situation can be a wake up call and a learning experience for us all. This sort of thing can happen to any of us and understanding is more called for than judgementalism (is that a word?).

I do hope that the two of them can find peace in their lives and move on.

As for "fair trial" ... I have been on juries more times that I'd like to remember. Jonathan hopefully will have a jury of his peers who will see a way to help rather than punish. In my experience juries have done very well in this regard and I would want no other legal system in the world.

Jonathan and Char, I wish you the peace and respect that both of you deserve.
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Postby Richard Perrin » 12/18/09 05:28 PM

Mark, you said that British is best... this got me wondering... how come you're in Canada? Whatever your answer will be... actually, it's not of my business but wondering.
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Postby Roger M. » 12/18/09 05:45 PM

Mark came to Canada for the better weather.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/18/09 08:26 PM

The Pendragons were at a very difficult point in their performing lives. They do an act based upon physical agility and strength, but they are both at least 55 years old and simply can't do the act they used to. You'll notice that the physically demanding pieces are/were spread out. That's a tough spot to be in when you are known for performing a certain type of magic and ages catches up with you and makes that difficult.
I think we all wish them the best in the future.
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Postby John Archer » 12/18/09 08:50 PM

Here here.... And for what it's worth, I like American's :-)
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Postby Michael E. Abston » 01/06/10 04:54 PM

Mark - About 30 years ago Sir Anthony Quayle (who you have to admit is a great Brit!) was in residence at The University of Tennessee (you know, us "stupid rednecks")in the drama department. He was quoted as saying that if you read Shakespeare with an East Tennessee mountain twang, it made more since than in the Queen's English! So, long ago in an island far away, Ya'll sounded just like us! Happy new year!
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/06/10 09:40 PM

I've been told that British actors find a Southern accent among the easiest of American accents to acquire.
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Postby Terry » 01/06/10 09:57 PM

Michael E. Abston wrote:you know, us "stupid rednecks"


Unless you were/are a Virginia union mine worker, you can't be a redneck.

Now, being from TN, you could be a hillbilly.
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Postby Magic Newswire » 01/06/10 10:22 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I've been told that British actors find a Southern accent among the easiest of American accents to acquire.


That must be why I find it so easy to pick up an English accent. ;-) What? What did I say? ;-)
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Postby Mark.Lewis » 01/06/10 10:34 PM

I do not approve of "English" accents.I don't speak with one myself. If you speak with one you either sound like a toffee nosed git from the Magic Circle or more likely very working class indeed. There seems to be no middle ground.
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