Ace cutting effect

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Cardologist » 11/30/09 08:37 AM

I am trying to locate and ace cutting effect similar to Gary Oulette's cutting sequence at the opening of "Dream of aces".
When you cut the pack into 4 piles you have two aces on top of pile 1 and 3. You lift up the top card from packets 1 and 3 and raise them up to diplay 2 aces. Then you place them on packets 2 & 4 face up and lift an ace from packet 1 & 3 and turn them over. No crossing of the hands like dream of aces.

Anyone have any information on this(name,what book or dvd its on)?
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Postby Brad Henderson » 11/30/09 11:16 AM

Shigeo Takagi had a version. I once tracked down the original (or what I thought to be original) version of this idea for an ace cutting but cannot find my notes on that.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 11/30/09 11:40 AM

Coincidentally, I'm just in the process of re-writing a few books for LORAYNE: THE CLASSIC COLLECTION, Vol. 3. The first book in that volume will be Quantum Leaps, and one of the routines in that book is Double Take. It pertains to exactly what you're asking. HL. (I've touched on the idea in other publications - for example, Tally-Ho Extended, in Personal Collectionl)
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Postby Cardologist » 11/30/09 12:24 PM

Thanks Harry,

I recently saw it on a Video or DVD but can't remember what one.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/30/09 12:26 PM

Takagi's version is probably in the book of his I wrote.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 11/30/09 01:12 PM

yes it is, and great it is, too.

Ian
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Postby Joe Pecore » 11/30/09 01:18 PM

More references about this topic here: http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... #Post59418
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 11/30/09 03:21 PM

Cyprian was the name I was thinking of but couldn't confirm. Gary Plants has a great way of getting into this that does away with moving a small group of cards between the packets. Perhaps he will post it.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 11/30/09 05:36 PM

A complete history of this trick, including details of every interesting version, will be included in my forthcoming book, The Bammo Flim-Flam CONglomeration. I also trace the history and development of the effect. Al Smith (an English bass player) invented the best-known version, but seldom, if never, gets credit. I also have a version with five packets that produces a royal flush.
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Postby Ted M » 11/30/09 07:31 PM

Bob,

Is an update available on the publication timeline for the Bammo Flim-Flam book?
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Postby Bob Farmer » 11/30/09 07:41 PM

Soon, soon, I'm hoping soon. Not before Xmas, but soon. My day job keeps interfering with these other projects. Does anyone know how I can get a MacArthur grant? Then I can concentrate on the important stuff. Hell, the Amazing Randi got a MacArthur Grant and he did'nt even fight in the Pacific.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/30/09 11:13 PM

Neither did you (fight in the Pacific, that is).

Here's hoping you find the time to finish your book. It's only taken me 15 years for DeLand.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 11/30/09 11:18 PM

From "Three Second Wonder" in Close Up Illusions by Gary Ouellet:

"This method of cutting aces, inspired by reading Father Cyprian's Swindle Aces (in The Elegant Card Magic of Father Cyprian)..."

Also:

"Father Cyprian suggested that interested readers might investigate Cross-Over Aces by Al Smith in The Talon #2. Cyp credits Joe Destephano with introducing him to the idea of turning a card over onto another pile."

Sadly, Gary does not mention any method for getting a MacArthur grant.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/01/09 03:56 PM

As will be revealed in the forthcoming Bammo Flim-Flam CONglomeration, Joe DeStefano and Bob Veeser are the most likely candidates for the guys who first thought of turning a card over and onto an adjacent pile.

Joe gave me some background in several emails (referring to dates in the early 1950s) and Veeser's idea is mentioned in A Subtlety For The Spectator Cuts the Aces, (p. 46, FARO CONTROLLED MIRACLES by Edward Marlo).
Though published in 1964, Marlo refers to notes from 1956, and then states at page 47, See notes on other methods by Neal Elias, Veeser, Simon and Marlo.
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Postby Joe DeStefano » 12/05/09 01:12 PM

Bob, thanks for rmembering me in connection with this ace cutting effect.

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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/05/09 05:12 PM

Hi Joe:

Do you remember any references to Frank Thompson using this idea (i.e., turning over a card onto another pile)?

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Postby Paul Gordon » 12/06/09 01:50 AM

Francis Haxton used this idea from "Trips Around England" lecture notes dated 1952. I think this date "predates" most. If you have The Pentagram (or New Pentagram), I think(?) it might be in there, too; most of his stuff was/is. Paul Gordon
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Postby Joe Mckay » 12/06/09 09:16 AM

Hi Bob,

In some of these types of effects the aces are shown on top of just 3 of the 4 packets. The fourth packet is secretly placed face up on the table. An ace shows on top of this packet - but in fact it is the BOTTOM card of the packet. I was just wondering if you knew any of the history of who first came up with that idea? Or is this not quite part of the area you wish to concentrate on? I am making quite a guess here, but I think I read somewhere that Frank Thompson first had this idea. But don't quote me on that...

All the best, and I can't wait for your book (maybe the Bob Farmer Magicana Special could be published at the same time to celebrate it's publication?)

Joe
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Postby Mark.Lewis » 12/06/09 09:58 AM

The best method of all is the one in the Royal Road to Card Magic called "Poker Player's Picnic" The reaction from real people is quite astonishing. Silly magicians won't like it because of all the dealing. Yet it is the best version of all. You can do all the fancy versions and I will come along and get a better reaction with this one.

Why? Because in ALL the other versions the magician has to touch the cards even if for just a fleeting moment. The other versions may be more direct but they ALL have this fatal weakness. "Poker Players Picnic" has the advantage that the magician doesn't have to touch the cards even once. The spectators do it all.

I have been doing this version for 50 years. There is none better. In fact I got my first press write up because of it. I showed Prince Phillip this trick when I was a teenager. I thought he was either going to invite me to Buckingham Palace for tea or tell his wife to offer me a knighthood but for some reason he didn't.

This is what the article said:

"The boy the Duke may well remember best was the one who flummoxed him with some particularly baffling card tricks including one called "Poker Player's Fancy". A friendly battle ensued after which 16 year old Ronald Lewis who has made an intensive study of card tricks emerged flushed with victory"

It was also my first experience of press inaccuracy. They got the name of the trick wrong.

Nevertheless it is a damn good trick and better than all the other versions. And best of all you really can master it 5 minutes after you try it. Again the major advantage is that the magician doesn't touch the cards. No other version will get the same reaction simply because of this one fact.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/06/09 12:17 PM

Joe and Paul, thanks for the notes.

Paul, can you be any more specific as to where that Haxton reference is?

Joe, any more hints as to where that Thompson idea might be?

Showing the ace on the bottom: I'm not sure who did this first, but it's a great idea. I think there may be a very good use of this in one Joshua Jay's DVDs (of material that was in MAGIC).

Mark: thank you for the effort, but we're not talking about ace cutting in general, but a particular method involving turning a revealed ace over from one packet to another.
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Postby El Mystico » 12/06/09 12:54 PM

For the Haxton reference, I've been through Pentagram today, but couldn't find it. But I haven't got New Pentagram.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 12/06/09 01:52 PM

El Mystico wrote:For the Haxton reference, I've been through Pentagram today, but couldn't find it. But I haven't got New Pentagram.


Same for me and I have also the New Pentagram. No allusion to his Lecture Notes from 1952.
May be it is an application with another kind of trick, not a Spectator Cuts the Aces
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Postby Paul Gordon » 12/06/09 02:16 PM

I know about this because the subject came up in a discussion, some years ago, (with Roger Crosthwaite) during a session. I have (somewhere among my 2000+ books/notes etc) Francis's notes. (I knew him fairly well, btw.) Like the Jacob Daley notes, they really are just notes. If I recall correctly, he didn't say how you got two Aces atop of two piles, but he did say something like 'pick of two Aces to display, and then use misdirection to pick off the next two Aces but place them atop the other two piles.'

Sorry I can't be more specific, but when I have time - I'll try and search them out. I don't know for sure about Pentagram or New Pentagram, but most of Francis' stuff was in there.

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Postby Richard Stokes » 12/06/09 02:47 PM

Paul, your own version of 'cutting to the 4 aces' is one of my favourites.
Even the spectator can give it a try.
Is this on your new card startlers DVD?
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Postby Paul Gordon » 12/06/09 03:17 PM

Dear Richard,

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, it's on Card Startlers 3-DVD set...plus 47 more things of mine. (DVD set includes 8 live clips of me entertaining layfolk.)

Best, Paul Gordon
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Postby Joe Mckay » 12/06/09 03:25 PM

I recently spent a few days going through a complete file of THE PENTAGRAM. I don't recall seeing an ace-cutting routine from Francis Haxton. So - put me down as another who would say that version probably isn't in this magazine...

About the (possible?) Frank Thompson idea. I have no idea where I read it. I think it may have been buried in the credits for an ace-cutting effect in APOCALYPSE. But - this is not something that is on the 'tip of my tongue' or anything. I have no idea where exactly I may have read it - and indeed I may be imagining the whole thing! Sorry I can't be of more help. I no longer have my file of APOCALYPSE magazine, so I can't double check.

However - it does seem like the sort of idea that Jon Racherbaumer might have a reference for? Also - it is possible that Harry Lorayne can remember the reference. One last thing - as with some of Frank Thompson's ideas, it may never have seen print and may just be attributed to him on the basis of him being the first to show the idea around. Just a thought. I am no expert in this area...

All the best,

Joe

PS A good way to find a credit might be to look at previously published versions of this idea. Off the top of my head I can recall seeing it used in Harry Lorayne's THE CLASSIC COLLECTION VOL. 2. That would place one of the first uses for this idea in the early 1970's...

Okay - I just dug out my notes. Sadly I sold my copy of THE CLASSIC COLLECTION VOL.2 but I am pretty sure this idea was used in ANY ACE SPELL (on page 392). I have just checked Denis Behr's great site and can see that this effect is credited to Frank Thompson and can be found on Page 122 of RIM SHOTS (published in 1973). This isn't a straight forward CUTTING THE ACES effect - but the idea that I am talking about IS used here...

Well - that was some turn up! I am sure this is the reference I had in mind...
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Postby Paul Gordon » 12/06/09 03:55 PM

Have found notes! As scanner is broken, I've taken photo of front page (1956, NOT 1952) and relevant para. But, how do I load them here? Or, Bob, what's your email address? I'll email you photos.

Cheers, PG
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/06/09 04:16 PM

Paul, use Photobucket. It's free.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/06/09 10:07 PM

Joe and Paul -- excellent -- we will track the idea to its lair. Paul, my email is trickmail@cogeco.ca
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Postby Joe Mckay » 12/06/09 10:11 PM

There is a trick called SPECTATOR-CHALLENGE ACES in RIM SHOTS as well. It is by Frank Thompson and is on Page 119. It probably has nothing to do with this idea, but it worth double-checking. I don't have the book myself anymore, so all I can do is pass along the reference (thanks to Denis Behr's great website!)

All the best,

Joe

PS Aaron Fisher was a student of Peter Galinskas. And - Peter Galinskas was a student of Frank Thompson. So - it is possible that Aaron Fisher may have some knowledge of whether or not this idea goes back to Frank Thompson...
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Postby Paul Gordon » 12/07/09 03:08 AM

Dear Bob,

Just emailed you the photos.

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