Banned from Blackpool for my "Safety"

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Postby Zig Zagger » 08/23/09 05:28 PM

WOW, if only half of this is true, Mr Lever should be ashamed of himself from here to Beijing!

We will see what FISM 2012 will stand for - hopefully not "Feudal Idiots Suppressing Magicians".

A friend of mine I have talked to about this considers entering the next competition in Blackpond - in the "Mental Illness" category - as The Great Dreck Leverage, producing John Milton's Areopagitica from his square circle and slapping it into someone's face... so watch out for him!
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/23/09 05:44 PM

"... ere the house of magic can be built?"
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Postby Tom Stone » 08/23/09 05:44 PM

Nathan Muir wrote:Wow, Tom, that's a particularly cowardly approach. Not the way we do things in the free world.

Well, when idealism run into the brick wall of realism, one get a different perspectiv of things. Some fights can not be won.

I spent 1.5 years trying to find out the reason why I was not allowed to compete at FISM2006. Did not get any real explanation, instead I became the target of an extreme mud-slinging that left me more or less alienated from the whole Swedish magic scene.
So, yes, I regret that I asked about the reason.
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Postby IrishMagicNews » 08/23/09 06:02 PM

Tom Stone wrote:I became the target of an extreme mud-slinging that left me more or less alienated from the whole Swedish magic scene.


And that is why this is the only comment I will post in this thread.

In the words of WB Yeats....Thread Carefully
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Postby Tim Ellis » 08/23/09 07:28 PM

Tom Stone wrote:
Nathan Muir wrote:Wow, Tom, that's a particularly cowardly approach. Not the way we do things in the free world.

Well, when idealism run into the brick wall of realism, one get a different perspectiv of things. Some fights can not be won.

I spent 1.5 years trying to find out the reason why I was not allowed to compete at FISM2006. Did not get any real explanation, instead I became the target of an extreme mud-slinging that left me more or less alienated from the whole Swedish magic scene.
So, yes, I regret that I asked about the reason.


Tom, as Sue-Anne and a number of other Aussie magicians will attest to, I was targeted by a fellow Aussie magician because he didn't get a free rego to a convention I was organising several years ago.

(The only people who go to Aussie conventions free are the overseas guest artists).

Anyway, he was President of the local club and started gossiping about me. When I was nominated to join the club more rumours were spread and I was suddenly the anti-christ of Aussie magic. For some reason he and his colleagues got away with saying anything they wanted to about me (discussing fictional versions of my private life, non-existent restraining orders etc) but as soon as I spoke up to defend myself they used that as "evidence" to show how much of a "troublemaker" I was and all the more reason I shouldn't be in the club.

Yes, you're right, there are some fights you cannot win.

In the end a lot of the committee who wanted me to join quit in protest, only to be replaced (without club voting) by this chaps friends. He even changed the clubs constitution to bar me (and Sue-Anne) from joining. (Ironically, the person in question is also on the Blackpool banned list).

So Tom, in a nutshell, I know how you feel.

If one person is running a club or a convention they can bar who they want, they can slander until the cows come home, and still pretend to be operating in the "best interests of the harmony of the club".

However, I disagree that in THIS case, we should accept that some people are not welcome.

FISM 2012 is not, as Derek Lever has made very clear, a Blackpool Convention, it is a FISM event.

In speaking with Derek he seems a very reasonable man (he's even expressed interest in having Ellis & webster appear at FISM 2012 so he has excellent taste *g*) so I can't see how he would even be considering extending his Blackpool bans to FISM 2012.

I'd be very surprised if he doesn't submit a post in here in a day or two clarifying exactly that.
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Postby Roger M. » 08/23/09 07:38 PM

Just accepting this is truly an unwise approach, FISM isn't some little backwater magic show.

From a world-wide perspective, FISM is as big as it gets. Every magician in the world who wants to go, and can afford to go, MUST be able to attend.......really, think about it.

Just to accept that you're "not welcome" at FISM because some ass-hole who's being a bully says you're not welcome isn't on I'm afraid, and Mr. Eswin and the FISM International folks had best deal with this right now, before it snowballs into something they won't have a chance of getting a handle on............it's almost there now, so sooner than later would probably be a good plan.
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Postby Tom Stone » 08/23/09 08:05 PM

Tim Ellis wrote:For some reason he and his colleagues got away with saying anything they wanted to about me (discussing fictional versions of my private life, non-existent restraining orders etc) but as soon as I spoke up to defend myself they used that as "evidence" to show how much of a "troublemaker" I was

Yep, identical tactics. And just to illustrate the damage - I heard those rumours about you here in Sweden a few years ago, that's how far it spread.
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Postby Tim Ellis » 08/23/09 09:01 PM

Tom Stone wrote:
Tim Ellis wrote:For some reason he and his colleagues got away with saying anything they wanted to about me (discussing fictional versions of my private life, non-existent restraining orders etc) but as soon as I spoke up to defend myself they used that as "evidence" to show how much of a "troublemaker" I was

Yep, identical tactics. And just to illustrate the damage - I heard those rumours about you here in Sweden a few years ago, that's how far it spread.


Then you know the man I'm talking about then.

Thankfully, most people know me and dismissed the comments for what they were, rubbish. However, there will always be those who only hear the rumours and - as you know Tom - when mud is thrown some is bound to stick.

All the more reason that bullying tactics should not be tolerated.
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Postby CraigMitchell » 08/24/09 01:58 AM

The latest reports just received:

"On hearing that Fism 2012 is coming to Blackpool I decided to phone up Arthur Carson of the Blackpool Magic Club with the view to purchasing tickets for Fism. He told me I was still banned for attending Blackpool and an application to attend Fism will have to gobefore the Blackpool Committee which will be meeting in approximately 8 weeks time and they will decide whether I was eligible for a Fism ticket. However, it was express to me
that it would be unlikely that I will be able to get a ticket to attend Fism ... "

and

"i have already been told my a member of bmc that anyone derek has barred wiil not be allocated tickets for fism and i have already been refused a dealer booth and a guy who was working for me was told he would not be able to attend either if you know how i and others can get in let me know"

Perhaps this is all just a horrible misunderstanding and Mr Lever did in no way, shape or form intend to 'ban' anyone from attending FISM 2012 and the wrong information was merely communicated to the relevant parties ?

Alternatively - this was Mr Lever's intent all along and only now that this practice has been exposed will he now be made to ensure that FISM is truly an all-inclusive event.

I look forward to obtaining the definitive answer.
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Postby CraigMitchell » 08/24/09 04:55 AM

Further details on the above:

"Myself any of my staff family and friends ... I understand has also been barred I have written to BMC for further clarification but have been ignored"

Again - these are messages which I have received. I cannot independently confirm the contents thereof ( I can 100% confirm my banning order from Blackpool ) - but I do believe there is sufficient cause for concern to request an official response and clarification regarding admission for FISM 2012 from Mr Lever.
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Postby Ray Eden » 08/24/09 05:11 AM

Evil abounds when good men do nothing! I'll stick with the free-speech supporters, let the nay-Sayers be damned. Keep up the fight, Craig. Dictatorship is not the way to run F.I.S.M.
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Postby Francesca Moffet » 08/24/09 05:26 AM

Well FISM 2012 isn't exactly off to a great start is it?

Banning people for voicing their opinion on the town itself isn't exactly great way to gain favour with people or generate good publicity...if I were a member of BMC I would be rather embarrassed by this.

Banning employees and family members because of association with a certain person is utterly ridiculous not to mention childish!
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Postby Magic Newswire » 08/24/09 06:33 AM

Tim Ellis wrote:I'd be very surprised if he doesn't submit a post in here in a day or two clarifying exactly that.


Last week, I invited Derek to be a guest on the Magic Newswire to promote the upcoming FISM in Blackpool. He has (to date) declined. It is an open invitation and I hope that he reconsiders as I am certain that many would like to hear from him.
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Postby CraigMitchell » 08/24/09 07:08 AM

Mr Lever attempted to have Paul Daniels expelled from the IBM:

"The story is too long, but basically a man called Derek Lever tried to get me kicked out of the IBM for 'exposing' magic secrets by selling tricks "to non magicians'. I was sitting at the back of the theatre where this AGM was being held and they did not know I was there. I stood up and pointed out that we all started with such magic sets, and as the vast majority of the IBM membership were non magicians anyway, making their living by being carpenters, plumbers, accountants, solicitors and so on, every dealer in the world was doing what Derek Lever was accusing me of. The motion was voted out."
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/24/09 08:26 AM

What sort of positive intent could be behind such an action?

I'll leave the "vast majority..." comment as its own item for later. For now - what good could come of such an action against the IBM and Paul Daniels?
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Postby Tim Ellis » 08/24/09 09:19 AM

That's very odd. Derek awarded Paul Daniels THE MURRAY AWARD in 1988.
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Postby Q. Kumber » 08/24/09 09:38 AM

I think this goes back to the very early eighties when there was a lot of controversy about the abundance of Paul Daniels magic kits for sale. A few years before the IBM expelled Pat Page for exposure (of magical secrets) in a magazine. The exposure was outside Pat's control - done by the publishers of The Big Book of Magic, and he was later reinstated.

While nothing to do with the IBM or Derek Lever, Paul did break the cardinal rule of selling magic sets to the public. He had the instructions tested by schoolchildren to make sure they could understand and follow them.

This broke the long standing tradition that magic set instructions should be written so that no one could understand them.
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Postby Gord » 08/24/09 09:40 AM

For those of us who don't know, could someone give us a bit of an overview regarding the comments that got Craig banned in the first place?


You don't have to quote exactly, just a quick overview for those of us who feel like that came in at the middle of things.

Thanks.

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Postby CraigMitchell » 08/24/09 10:04 AM

I believe it was this post which Mr Lever demanded that Dodd Vickers remove forthwith from his website:

http://www.linkingpage.com/magicnewsfee ... chell.html
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Postby Magic Newswire » 08/24/09 10:04 AM

Craig wrote two articles that we posted at Magic Newswire when he sent them to us. Here are the links in case you are interested in what Derek asked us to remove from the site.

This was the first which they seem to be ok with:(And by that I mean that Mr. Lever hasn't mentioned it)
http://www.linkingpage.com/magicnewsfee ... chell.html

This is the one that Mr. Lever asked that I removed and for which it is said Craig was banned:
http://www.linkingpage.com/magicnewsfee ... chell.html
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Postby Tim Ellis » 08/24/09 10:34 AM

So was the attempted expulsion BEFORE Derek Lever awarded Paul The Murray Award in 1988?
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Postby naquada » 08/24/09 10:56 AM

its sad that the fism2012.org domain is being used like this...
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Postby Q. Kumber » 08/24/09 12:14 PM

Tim Ellis wrote:So was the attempted expulsion BEFORE Derek Lever awarded Paul The Murray Award in 1988?


I can't give you the exact year but I'm pretty sure it was well before the Murray Award. I know that Paul Daniels Magic sets were available in 1983 and the smaller one trick sets came shortly afterwards.
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Postby Magic Newswire » 08/24/09 02:02 PM

I remember Paul commenting on UK Magic conventions in my interview with him. In addition, when asked about the Blackpool convention for a written interview, his response was:

Paul Daniels: UK conventions were ruined for me by bitchiness and jealousy, which is a real shame because that was where I met so many of my friends. Now I only go to foreign conventions where, to be honest, I am greeted with respect and civility AND I have tons of foreign magician friends.

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Postby Q. Kumber » 08/24/09 04:59 PM

I think you'll find that Paul is referring to British conventions in general, not Blackpool in particular. For a time that was a lot of jealousy over Paul, especially by magicians who felt that it was they who should have been on TV.

I remember one evening at an IBM convention standing around with a group of magicians as Paul answered questions for about 90 minutes. Ali Bongo was doing his nut saying, "He's giving too much away." To those who would listen the information was pure gold.

After Paul left, I heard one magician say to his friend, "Who does he think he is, the big headed git?"

There was also a controversy in ABRA magazine when Paul wrote a letter about magicians attending his show doing card tricks in the foyer of the theatre. It got quite nasty.

I've never known anyone in the magic profession to be so free and generous with practical commercial information than Paul.

Paul's interview is well worth reading and I add this question and answer which sums up what I've been saying:

Laura: And finally, what is the most valuable bit of advice you have received during your career as a magician?
Paul Daniels: From Ken Brooke when I didnt win a magic competition at a convention: Dont change son. Youve got it right for the public, and the silly buggers dont know.


Ken Brooke was right and most of the silly buggers still don't know.
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Postby CraigMitchell » 08/24/09 05:22 PM

Further reports.

Extracts from a letter written by Mr Lever to one of the many people on his banned list:

"We can choose to ban whoever we wish for whatever reason. You ... all staff and business associates of yours are all banned from attending the Convention. We will not be giving any details as to why you are not attending."

Again - if you have been banned or know of anyone who has been banned from Blackpool and are wishing to attend FISM 2012 - please contact me. FISM 2012 offer a great special - book 12 registrations and get 1 free ...
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Postby Master Payne » 08/24/09 05:30 PM

Wow, who'd have thought Blackpool had become such a dangerous place with vigilantes and drougie's marauding about.

Perhaps their poster for this event should reflect this dismal and distressing turn of events

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Postby Tim Ellis » 08/24/09 05:37 PM

Craig, you're in good company. The Rolling Stones were banned for 44 years from Blackpool

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Postby Jim Riser » 08/24/09 05:42 PM

Craig;
It seems to me that if you have been banned because your safety can not be assured, then (by implication) everyone else's safety at the convention(s) in Blackpool is assured. Is the BMC opening themselves up to lawsuits from anyone who might be mugged or merely threatened? This could get very expensive for the BMC. I do hope that they are well insured.
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Postby Magic Newswire » 08/24/09 06:42 PM

Master Payne wrote:Perhaps their poster for this event should reflect this dismal and distressing turn of events

You have to love it when Clockwork Orange enters a discussion of magic clubs. Dan Sperry is starting to win me over his side.
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Postby Master Payne » 08/24/09 06:58 PM

Magic Newswire wrote:You have to love it when Clockwork Orange enters a discussion of magic clubs. Dan Sperry is starting to win me over his side.



I was going to do an Homage to Albert and the Lion as it starts out "There's a famous seaside place called Blackpool, that's noted for fresh air and fun"

But it's far to obscure. But than as we all know, Sometimes the Jokes are Just for Me :)
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Postby Razamatazz Magic » 08/24/09 07:39 PM

FISM's main priority surely is to promote magic and the magic art ??? To help and to inform, to enlighten and to encourage people to enjoy the world of magic.

Already it's off to a depressing start and it's still over 2 years away !!!
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Postby Magic Newswire » 08/24/09 11:16 PM

naquada wrote:is it then right to bullying someone electronically?


Bullying? OK... let's talk bullying... Wouldn't banning someone for having a differing opinion be bullying? Especially when it can be randomly applied to friends and family of the person that has expressed the opinion. I agree with regard to impersonation, but really.... who is the bully in this topic?
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Postby Francesca Moffet » 08/25/09 04:16 AM

If enough people lodge complaints then surely the resposibility of organising FISM will be taken away from Derek Lever wouldn't it?

Perhaps a few carefully worded emails to certain people would teach him that he is not all powerful after all...
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Postby Nathan Muir » 08/25/09 04:21 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I wonder if the rules of FISM itself allow people to be banned for no good reason other than expressing an opinion--a right that is protected speech in the UK (I assume). I'll be contacting Eric Eswin for an informed decision about this.
It seems outrageous to me.


I guess it's the same as running an Internet forum. If you run it, you make the rules and you can ban people "for no good reason other than expressing an opinion", or typing in all caps or whatever. Seems analogous to me.
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Postby mrgoat » 08/25/09 04:41 AM

Nathan Muir wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:I wonder if the rules of FISM itself allow people to be banned for no good reason other than expressing an opinion--a right that is protected speech in the UK (I assume). I'll be contacting Eric Eswin for an informed decision about this.
It seems outrageous to me.


I guess it's the same as running an Internet forum. If you run it, you make the rules and you can ban people "for no good reason other than expressing an opinion", or typing in all caps or whatever. Seems analogous to me.


Nothing like that at all.

One is a private board. Like a private house. Mr K invites us all in here and if we [censored] about he will ban us.

FISM, however, is far from a private house. It is a public space governed by elected officials.

Those elected officials then chose a host every 4 years to put on an event.

If that host acts like a unhinged bully, banning people, dealers and families from attending, I think he shoudl be removed from his position.

I get it. He has run his convention for many years and thinks he is god. He thinks the quasi-power he gets from Blackpoo Magic extends to FISM.

I think he's wrong.

I also think everyone who agrees with me should email the president of FISM and let him know your thoughts.
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Postby CARL DE ROME » 08/25/09 04:43 AM

I have known Derek Lever for many years now, and I'm really sorry to hear that you have been banned from Blackpool by him,
But you must look on the bright side of this,
You're now in the elite squad of the MANY magicians that Derek Lever has banned from his gatherings over the past years.
If you have been banned from His convention? you can also rest assured that you will also not be welcome at the Blackpool committees new theatre, or to any events or lectures that Derek Lever runs,
You will also not be welcome to any of the special auctions that he runs, and you will also not be welcome to have anything to do with the magic club he started in Manchester, the Manchester Circle of Magicians I think it is called.
So on this assumption any person he has banned from the Blackpool Convention over the years,
And there are many including Myself, all these people will also NOT be allowed to attend F.I.F.M. 2012 In Blackpool. Thats a lot of revenue FISM is going to loose.

The really sad and the worst point in this, is Not only will you have a banning order placed on you, for all of Derek Levers events, but also ALL you're family and if you are a dealer ALL you're staff, will also be banned as well, so if you are banned,
Any friends you have must not mention they are you're friends as they will probably also be banned.

This is hard to believe in this small world of magic, that just one person can have so much power to do exactly what he likes or feels like, with absolutely no consideration what so ever of who he hurts,

I do have the feeling that if you carry on with this, you might get this years mention in his convention welcome that he gave to myself in last years Blackpool program. Featured above in this thread
He might even do the same to you as he did to me in last years Gala Show, and beam up onto the stage by Giant TV screen for 3200 magicians, A photograph of you with a gun placed to you're head, With the Nike logo below it, and also he placed the wording asking me to blow my brains out in front of everyone.

Lastly I'm not sure if I am allowed to mention this ?, If not I am surethe moderators here on the Geni Forum will take the link away
But my full dealings with no holds barred with Mr Derek Lever over all these years,
all the details are up on my web site for everyone to read. www.cdrmagic.com/info

Cheers
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Uncouth, Illiterate, Big-mouthed, Buffoon, from Norway,
Actually I am from Blackpool in England.
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Postby mrgoat » 08/25/09 05:32 AM

CARL DE ROME wrote:He might even do the same to you as he did to me in last years Gala Show, and beam up onto the stage by Giant TV screen for 3200 magicians, A photograph of you with a gun placed to you're head, With the Nike logo below it, and also he placed the wording asking me to blow my brains out in front of everyone.


Wow.

So he incited a room full of people to actually kill you.

That is astounding.

Sadly, the link doesn't work, but because I think the /info page isn't actually there. Your main site works fine. Would love to hear the history from your POV.
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Postby Francesca Moffet » 08/25/09 06:15 AM

He actually pulled that kind of sick stunt in public?

Utterly appalling. Things like that will scare people off as they'll be worried that they'll do something to provoke him...and then be on the receiving end of his disgraceful bullying.

Hard to believe these are the actions of a grown man as they are things that an 8 year old would find amusing.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 08/25/09 06:15 AM

Damian - the link is http://www.cdrmagic.com/info.htm

Can't believe you didn't try that...
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