The dream plot

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Postby Philippe Noël » 06/05/09 05:00 PM

Does someone know in which trick was first used the dream plot like in the dream card by Darwin Ortiz?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/05/09 05:48 PM

? about every premonition/prediction presentation uses part of it.

Darwin may have been the first to publish a direct cross of the two classic effects.
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Postby Philippe Noël » 06/12/09 02:05 PM

In fact Jonathan, I suppose Larry Jennings was the first when he published "The Pacoima Solution"(The dream Trick) in 1986 in The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings. But I am not sure.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/12/09 02:41 PM

What is the story (effect) of that Jennings routine?
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Postby Philippe Noël » 06/12/09 02:56 PM

A story is related about how the performer had a dream about a great card effect. He then offers to show this effect.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/12/09 03:04 PM

What I'm asking about is how the Jennings routine plot makes use the notion of dreams as relates to what's physically present for the audience.


There are several story frames where a narrator introduces the audience to the scene of the action. One example, The Pilgrim's Progress is framed almost entirely as a dream. What's new? Here's some about framing a: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_story

Here's some about what's OLD for those who enjoy such things: http://books.google.com/books?id=F8s_VT ... t&resnum=6
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Postby Philippe Noël » 06/12/09 03:46 PM

Larry Jennings explains that in his dream, he had a spectator shuffle the deck. He then explain that he had a spectator peek a card and then shuffle the deck. He then explain that in his dream,half the deck was then turned face up. Face up cards were run, and spectator was asked to note if selected card was in face up or face down half. Spectator took specified half, shuffled them. Magician spread cards and had spectator touch one. It was the selection! The card then disappeard and was found reversed in other half of the deck and it actually happens in reality proving that dreams sometimes do come true.
The trick has indeed nothing special to do with dreams.
It is just presented as a trick that Jennings dreamed of.
I was asking if an other magician used this presentation strategy prior to Jennings in the magic litterature.
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Postby Ron » 12/12/09 08:32 AM

This can't be the whole history of "The Dream Plot", because it has to be at least as old as The Al Koran Deck, which can be presented to a spectator by claiming that you had a dream where you saw the spectator choose a particular card in your dream, and that you now carry that particular card around in your wallet, and you then have the spectator choose a card by slowly, one-at-a-time, removing cards from the top of the face-down Al Koran Deck, turning them face-up on the table, and stopping when he feels the urge to stop, and then you show that the card in your wallet, (which you said you saw the spectator pick in your dream), is the same card as the card he just now stopped at.

I am very interested in knowing the history of this, since it is a stunning effect when well presented. (and was the first mentalism effect that I really learned to perform well by putting in the time and effort that the trick deserved)

And who can help me find the real history of "The Al Koran Deck"?

The "Al Koran Deck" is type of force deck with the group of force cards placed in a fixed order, and separated by non-force cards that are typically all different, and where the same force cards in the same fixed order repeat through the entire deck, separated by indifferent cards, so that a simple cutting of the deck does not disturb the arrangement of the force cards.

1)Who was the magician who thought of this first?
2)Where was this first performed?
3)When did this happen?
4)Who first explained the working of this type of Force Deck?
5)Was this type of "Al Koran Force Deck" ever made with Tarot Cards?
6)When did this happen?
7)Who did it?
8)Where was it performed?
9)Where was it explained?
10)Was this Al Koran type of Gaffed Tarot Deck ever offered for sale to the Magic Community?
11)Who did it?
12)When and how was it offered for sale?
13)What was the make-up of this gaffed Tarot Deck?

I do not know the correct answers, and I want to know them as soon a forum member is able to provide them.

Although I have only registered with The Genii Forum today,
I have often read the threads here.

I am a 68 year-old amateur who bought my first trick when I was 9, and the good magician Gene Gordon taught me "The Paddle Move" over his counter at his magic shop in Buffalo. He introduced me to "The Genii" and sold me my first copy when I was 10.

An impressive feature of this forum is the presence of real experts in Conjuring History and Lore.

I know that they are here because numerous times I have watched a discussion get bogged down, and then a towering figure like Kaufman, Burger, or Maven will swoop in and restore clarity.

Therefore, because it is the Christmas/Hanukkah season of the year, I will offer a reward to those who are willing to bring and share the Treasure of Truth.

To the Genii Forum member who first shares with me in this Genii forum the undisputably correct answers to all of these thirteen questions, I will award the sum of $130.00 USD, to be sent to that member's email address via PayPal.

To Each Genii Forum member who first provides the verifiably correct answer to a single one of the above 13 questions I will give the reward of $10.00 USD,to be sent to that member's email address via PayPal.

In the event of an unresolvable dispute over which of two answers are correct, I will reward each of the disputants with $5.00 USD, and in the event of a larger number of disputants, I will reward each one of the disputants with $5.00, up to a total of $25.00 shared between the first 5 disputants counted from when they first advanced their disputed answers.

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No fooling!

I want these answers.

Why don't you just look all this up yourself??
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I have no axe to grind.

These answers will not be used for any lawsuit, or to hurt, or or to defame, or to disparage any person, or anyone's products, or anyone's work.


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Go forth, my fellow forum members, and return with the treasure I seek, and claim your reward!

And for those who are not interested in such things, realize that in the 21st century, Magic is big enough and diverse enough to embrace people of many different talents:

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Postby Joe Pecore » 12/12/09 10:20 PM

Some basic info on the Koran Deck is on MagicPedia http://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php/Koran_deck.

I can update the information with whatever you find out.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/12/09 10:38 PM

The "dream" plot worked pretty well in that story of a Pharaoh's dream interpreted into prophesy in the Old Testament.

It goes back much further if you do some more reading.

Nice mention of The Looking Glass. Another source of wonderful imagery and word games.
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Postby Joe Pecore » 12/12/09 11:08 PM

Ron, are you looking for answers to the Koran Deck or the Dream Plot? If just the Koran Deck, you might want to start a new topic.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/12/09 11:26 PM

BTW, you'll notice the dream plot used in the Alice story. ;)

I was under the impression that the pack of cards used in the Al Koran five star prediction was invented by someone else.
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Postby Max Maven » 12/13/09 09:34 PM

Although there are earlier references to this type of deck, it is established that Al Koran's direct inspiration (and I'm using that word kindly) was Audley Walsh's "Magician's Dream," which was published in The Jinx #43, 1938.

As for the dream plot, given that dream interpretation goes back thousands of years, the notion that the idea was applied to a magic trick only in the latter part of the 20th century is absurd.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/13/09 11:36 PM

In Walter Gibson's book, WHAT'S NEW IN MAGIC, he has a version of the Walsh trick and refers to "Lyle's 'Chocolate, Cigarette and Card,' now an all-but-forgotten trick" (p. 50). I have no idea what the connection might be.
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Postby Joe Pecore » 12/14/09 06:38 AM

From the Sphinx May 1913 in "THE MAGICIANS CLUB. OPENING CEREMONY" :

"Cecil Lyle followed with a more elaborate effect. He produced a box of chocolates. To each chocolate was attached a different miniature playing card. A member of the audience ate one of the chocolates and memorized the card attached to it. Another member took a cigarette from a proffered case. The box of chocolates was covered. A moment later the cover was removed. The chocolates had disappeared. In their place was a pack of full-sized playing: cards. One card was missing from the pack. It was the Jack of Diamonds; and the miniature card which had been attached to the eaten chocolate was also the Five of Diamonds, Where is the missing card? 'You'll find it in that cigarette,' said Mr. Lyle. And sure enough it was presently found there."
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/14/09 08:00 AM

Joe:

Thank you -- I've been wondering about that damn trick since I was in elementary school (when I first came across Gibson's book in the local library).

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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/14/09 08:13 AM

In Ted Lesley's book, PARAMIRACLES, published by Stephen Minch's Hermetic Press, a history is included in the chapter entitled, "Dream Decks" (pp.117-120). Part of the entry reads:

... (re the Al Koran Force Deck) ... it was not his invention. Edward Bagshawe ... seems to have been the first to suggest a force pack that used duplicate banks of cards arranged in rotation ... ("A Spirit Divination Mystery" in his book, EXCLUSIVE PROBLEMS IN MAGIC, 1924, p. 42) ... Fourteen years later Audley Walsh reinvented the concept and added a pumping sequence to determine which card had been selected ...(see The Jinx, No. 43, April 1938, pp. 298 and 297; and Hilliard's GREATER MAGIC, 1938, pp. 346-347) ... Then, in the mid-1950s Gene Grant (Phantini)... marketed "The Mental Deck" which reduced the number of force cards ... from (12) ... to (10) ... In 1959, Corinda released Al Koran's revision of Walsh's ... (deck) ... calling it "The Koran Deck" and from this sprang the misunderstanding over the origin of the force pack.

I'm sure Stephen would be happy to sell you a copy.

Incidentally, I've invented a version of this that allows for over 1,000,000 combinations of selections (i.e., cards merely thought of), but I can nail them all with a few questions -- and I'm never wrong. It's part of a trick I will market as THE BAMMO GAFFUS MAXIMUS DECK.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/14/09 09:45 AM

Stephen Minch wrote a book on using Tarot cards in conjuring - his Book of Thoth.

Making custom packs of 4 way forcers is a sensible strategy and one would not be too surprised to find this used by "fortune tellers" as far back as cards had been available

Similarly one should not be too surprised to find such methods used with stacks of business cards, post cards, ID or credit cards... as in this craft one is expected to apply ones knowlege to serve one's particular performing needs.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 12/14/09 06:19 PM

David Britland reminded me that there are two different sorts of deck here. On the one hand, you have a deck, used by Koran, that had 4 force cards interlaced with 4 random cards and this sequence is repeated to make a deck. Then you have the deck where the entire deck is made up of force cards. The difference seems to be how the card is forced: where the entire deck is force cards, the selection procedure can be looser; but where there are random cards interlaced, either dealing cards or cutting would seem to be the only procedure available.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/14/09 06:37 PM

what if you svengali'd the deck too?
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Postby Max Maven » 12/14/09 08:13 PM

Bob Farmer wrote:David Britland reminded me that there are two different sorts of deck here. On the one hand, you have a deck, used by Koran, that had 4 force cards interlaced with 4 random cards and this sequence is repeated to make a deck. Then you have the deck where the entire deck is made up of force cards.


Bob, now you're just confusing the issue. The two decks described have different names. The so-called Koran Deck is the one with only sets of force cards.

The one where four force cards are interlaced with random stock is called a 1-0-1 Deck. It is also usually (and incorrectly) attributed to Koran.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/14/09 08:37 PM

Max, who created the 1-0-1 Deck?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/14/09 09:25 PM

Where did this "1-0-1" terminology come from?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/14/09 10:46 PM

Well, if you'd wait for Max to answer the question, he probably would've told us that as well.
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Postby Max Maven » 12/15/09 05:34 AM

The "1-0-1" name comes from a simple description of the deck: One force card, one null, one force card..."

The inventor has not yet been determined. The earliest known reference thus far was found by Stephen Minch, who came upon a version in Martin Gardner's 12 Tricks With a Borrowed Deck (1940).

There is a conceptual relationship to Burling Hull's Mene-Tekel Deck, which predates 1910. And, for that matter, decks containing banks of duplicates are discussed in European texts in the mid-19th century, and probably go back much further.
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Postby Eric Fry » 12/15/09 04:09 PM

I don't have Gardner's book. How does a 1-0-1 deck fit with the concept of a borrowed deck? Do you ditch half, faro in your force cards and never return the borrowed cards?
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