Denny's Ad on the September back cover

Discuss general aspects of Genii.

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/24/01 12:00 PM

I'd like to know everyone's opinion on Denny and Lee's ad which appears on the back cover of the September issue of Genii. PLEASE GIVE YOUR OPINIONS FREELY!!!!!
In case you haven't seen it, it depicts something you see every time a plumber comes to your house.
And, no, it's NOT a scratch and sniff! :)
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20949
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby James » 08/24/01 12:11 PM

I loved it! It's quite funny and I don't think it's too offensive. He uses the photo to tell a story. In the context of the ad -- the graphic works.

Personally, I get much more tunred off by those ads that feature the bimbos with the big boobs trying to sell magic. Oddly enough -- those are the competition Denny is making fun of in his ad.
James
 
Posts: 81
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Boulder, CO

Postby Tom Dobrowolski » 08/24/01 12:59 PM

Love the ad as per my earlier post. It could also apply to many of ther internet shoppers.
Although I do find it amusing and to the point, there are also a number of very good internet only dealers out there that provide a valuable service to those in and out of the U.S. that do not have access to a brick and mortar magic shop. I grew up going to shops, Magic, Inc. here in Chicago, and continue to frequent and support them but definitely see the value of good internet dealers.
Tom Dobrowolski
 
Posts: 604
Joined: 03/13/08 09:20 AM
Location: Palatine, Illinois

Postby Guest » 08/24/01 02:30 PM

I liked it alot.

I am also a fan of the bimbos with big boobs selling magic.

Both are very effective.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 08/24/01 03:24 PM

Well it is the END of the magazine.
Guest
 

Postby Joe M. Turner » 08/24/01 04:27 PM

I didn't like it. At all. Yes, I understood the humor intellectually. I just think GENII deserves better than butt-crack jokes.

My opinion,
JMT
Joe M. Turner
 
Posts: 418
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Bill Mullins » 08/24/01 06:07 PM

I liked it -- it cracked me up. If it's not for you, turn the other cheek.
Bill Mullins
 
Posts: 3043
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Huntsville, AL

Postby Larry Horowitz » 08/24/01 06:07 PM

I like the back cover alot. There are two reasons. First it is a good ad, it gets your attention, its memorable and it gets people talking. Secondly, it's fun. Magic is a hobby ( or at least thats how we all started). A magazine devoted to it need not read like the New York Times.
Larry Horowitz
 
Posts: 400
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: L.A.

Postby Brad A._dup1 » 08/24/01 07:13 PM

The ad worked for me, it caught my attention. "What is that!?"

I think it works.
Former Vonnegut Character
Brad A._dup1
 
Posts: 224
Joined: 07/16/01 12:00 PM
Location: Berkeley, CA

Postby Steve Hook » 08/24/01 08:02 PM

Obviously in the minority: Didn't hate it but didn't like it. But I'm looking at it in the Big Picture, as part of culture, not just as a magazine ad. I'm in that "overview" frame of mind.

Was it different? Yes. Attention-getting? Yes. Point-making? Yes.

Crass? Vulgar? Boorish? Yes, yes, and yes.

Does society/magic need more of this adolescent, low-brow humor? No.

The ad wouldn't cause me to cancel my subscription to Genii or stop buying from Denny, whom I consider one of the most inspirational professionals I've had the pleasure to meet and see lecture.

But in the face of society's onslaught of crude chaff, having lived long enough to have "been there, done that or seen that or heard that", I'm just personally tired of puerile, tasteless, even immoral pop culture, from Madonna's bra to, well, Denny's cheeks. :rolleyes:

But I'm in my normal picky mood...and you did ask! And I couldn't leave Joe out there alone.

Steve H ;)
Steve Hook
 
Posts: 769
Joined: 10/21/08 11:50 AM
Location: North Carolina, USA

Postby Dave Shepherd » 08/24/01 09:07 PM

I have to say I pretty much agree with Joe and Steve. I laughed when I first saw it, but after about a week of the mag sitting around my house, it has gotten really old. I find I'm turning the magazine face up just to hide that ad when the issue is lying on the table.

While I basically agree with the point Denny was trying to make about many internet dealers, I bet there was some other, more clever way to make the point.

Denny's got the most visible regular spot on any magazine I know of (not just magic mags), which makes me pay attention to him every month, even when I've seen the ad before. And he buys a lot of white space, which I believe is very effective.

My two cents' worth.

Dave Shepherd

[ August 24, 2001: Message edited by: Dave Shepherd ]
Dave Shepherd
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: 15 miles w. of Washington, DC

Postby Guest » 08/25/01 06:46 AM

I must admit that our postgirl had a rather strange look as she delivered Genii, rather pink?? :confused:
Guest
 

Postby Mike » 08/25/01 07:10 AM

I say lighten up. If we do not buy from the shops,they will not exist.
Mike
 
Posts: 53
Joined: 03/31/08 07:51 PM

Postby Joe M. Turner » 08/25/01 08:10 AM

Mike:

I don't think anybody disagrees with your statement. The question Richard posed was not whether we want to support Denny or brick-and-mortar magic shops. It was about whether we thought the butt-crack advertisement was appropriate or not.

I can't speak for everyone, but just because I thought the particular ad was beneath Genii's dignity doesn't at all mean I don't like magic shops. This is not an either/or proposition.

Best,
JMT
Joe M. Turner
 
Posts: 418
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Rene Clement » 08/25/01 08:28 AM

I got a kick out of the ad. It does make it's point and there has been discussions on magic boards of people being ripped off by some of these new internet dealers.
I'm glad that Denny had the good sense to have this dealer sitting on a small ladder, rather than a small stool !
--Rene
Rene Clement
 
Posts: 108
Joined: 01/28/08 01:00 PM
Location: Queens NY

Postby Steve V » 08/25/01 03:02 PM

It reminded me of my former homeland in Georgia... I wasn't offended by the ad. Actually I would think folks would be more offended by the previous ad showing, I guess it was Denny, smoking.
Steve V
Steve V
 
Posts: 642
Joined: 01/20/08 01:00 PM
Location: Silver Springs, NV

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/26/01 03:04 AM

Thanks very much for your opinions so far, PLEASE LET'S HAVE SOME MORE AS YOU RECEIVE YOUR ISSUE!
Hey, Rene, keep your stool to yourself.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20949
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby HighQ » 08/26/01 01:30 PM

I thought the ad was excellent. Look at all the attention it has focused on the most ethical, honest, and respected dealer in the business. I think that was it's goal and it has met it admirably.
I laughed and no one got hurt, so where's the problem? Denny is a very funny person and this ad reflects his nature.
HighQ
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 02/02/08 01:00 PM
Location: Baltimore

Postby Guest » 08/26/01 04:14 PM

I was not offended at all by Denny's ad.
However it seems to me that it's a desperation ad resulting from a loss of sales to the internet exclusive magic dealers.
Denny has promoted his marketing strategy with that to have the creators get their due by not discounting their products.Well he should get into the living world. We as amatuers, hobbyists, semi-pros, etc don't have to be patrons of the art but trying to buy at competitive prices.
As I'm writing this I now think that although I was not offended I think Denny's ad was ill advised.
Guest
 

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/26/01 11:04 PM

Marvin,
I think your word "desperation" is not accurate. I think humor is a time-tested weapon, and a weapon is exactly what is needed by magic shop owners at a time when internet dealers are discounting items by 20 to 40% on a regular basis. Internet dealers have no overhead and few expenses, while magic shop dealers have huge overhead, including rent and money invested in inventory.
I can't tell you how terribly disappointed I am by the behavior of most magicians who think a dealer is robbing them because he is asking for list price on an item. Magicians who then feel that there is something wonderful about saving just a few dollars on a product. This type of thinking is destroying the business of publishing magic books and videotapes, and it is being caused by magicians who think saving $5 is the most wonderful thing in the world, as if they are entitled to do that or they won't buy a product!
Don't tell me to "Join the real world," because the real world of magic is not the real world of normal retailing!
THINK about how TINY the world of magic is, how SMALL a group of dealers and customers there are, how FEW the number of any item actually manufactured is. A publishing run of a thousand books? ANY hobby has triple to quintuple that circulation. You can NOT engage in aggresive discounting in a field as small as magic and expect people to continuing publishing books because THEY TAKE TOO DAMN MUCH WORK!
The people who think videotapes are the most wonderful thing on the planet, but won't buy a $30 tape unless it's discounted to almost $20, well ... they've got a rude surprise coming, too. The number of clubs passing one tape around to their members, and the illegal duplicating of tapes (again, something magicians seem to feel they have a right to do ... what the hell are they thinking about?) is rapidly making the videotape market a shambles. Why do you think there are so many tapes coming out? It's because so little money is made on each tape, that you MUST put out many new tapes a month in order to keep your business afloat. Combine that with agressive discounting by internet dealers and you have the makings of a total market collapse.
Kaput.
Then you'll have nothing, and only yourselves to thank.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20949
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Bill McFadden » 08/27/01 12:43 AM

Greetings all . . .
. . . after several days of lurking in this terrific forum, my guilty conscience got the better of me, thus my first post. I loved the Denny ad, but I'm biased. During a recent visit to the Studio, Denny showed me the "slicks" for the current and upcoming ads. My first question after I stopped laughing was, "What did Kaufman think?" As of that day, Richard had not yet seen it. A few days later, I was again in the shop when RK called to voice his opinion to Denny.

Butt crack plumber jokes are sometimes used in the mainstream comics pages of daily newspapers, so what's the fuss? Let us not take ourselves too seriously. Denny has traditionally used humor to convey his message, as he has done this time vis-a-vis the "unqualified" internet competition.

I also agree with RK that paying list price goes with the turf for any dealer who's with us 24/7, always has the available inventory, and has the time to offer the type of service and input. Nobody loves to save a buck more than me, but I also have a responsibility to be a loyal consumer and support the dealers who support us. Nothing beats a visit to Denny or Al Cohen (for example), especially when I know they'll have the book or supply item I'm looking for (or will have it in stock presently). That's a given; their input and advice are priceless.

Nice to be among you all . . .
Bill McFadden
 
Posts: 618
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Villesville-on-the-Chesapeake

Postby Steve Hook » 08/27/01 01:09 AM

Richard:

Right on!

It is human nature to want to save money and get a good deal. But the magic community must keep the unique business limitations of our shops and dealers in mind. Who doesn't look forward to visiting a magic shop? But the shops won't be there for long if they don't make a profit. We can't have it both ways.

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: Steve Hook ]
Steve Hook
 
Posts: 769
Joined: 10/21/08 11:50 AM
Location: North Carolina, USA

Postby Guest » 08/27/01 01:13 AM

Let's see: it seems to boil down to supporting the big boobed babes of the internet or the bad boys with butt cracks....

but hey what's the difference: isn't it all just cleavage? Maybe that's why we seem to be so split on this issue....

Tim
Guest
 

Postby Joe M. Turner » 08/27/01 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Bill McFadden:
Butt crack plumber jokes are sometimes used in the mainstream comics pages of daily newspapers, so what's the fuss? Let us not take ourselves too seriously. Denny has traditionally used humor to convey his message, as he has done this time vis-a-vis the "unqualified" internet competition.


I'm not "fussing." I'm answering -- as honestly as I can -- a question RK posed.

I hold Genii - The Conjurers' Magazine in much higher regard than I do the "mainstream comics pages."

Best regards,
JMT
...trying to remember when Charles Schultz used a butt-crack joke...
Joe M. Turner
 
Posts: 418
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Bill McFadden » 08/27/01 10:32 PM

Joe,
My post was not directed at anyone in particular, and certainly not to you. I value your opinion and your insights. If any disrespect was inferred, I apologize. My point is simply that, although I hold Genii in the highest esteem of any magic publication, even a bit of sophomoric levity doesn't upset the content or tone. I hoped that Denny's ad, or any other irreverent interlude, would not prove controversial.

Charles Schulz? Don't think he used the butt crack gag. I was thinking more along the lines of "Piranha Club", "Zippy," and those one-panel off-beat cartoons that appear in The Washington Post - which meets even my high standards.

Please don't be mad at me, Joe . . .
Bill McFadden
 
Posts: 618
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Villesville-on-the-Chesapeake

Postby EdAndres » 08/28/01 02:11 AM

Right On Richard. Having worked in a magic shop for twenty years(whew)... I have seen it all.

The same people who want discounts complain about us selling non magic stuff. well we can't pay the rent waiting for the local magi to maybe pop in.

Our best magic customers are the ones who live where there are no shops. They know what they are missing.


The number of clubs passing one tape around to their members, and the illegal duplicating of tapes (again, something magicians seem to feel they have a right to do ... what the hell are they thinking about?) is rapidly making the videotape market a shambles.


I brought this topic up at the last club meeting I attended about two years ago. I was commenting on how a tape they(the club) had said "not for rental" on it. The club rents the tapes out. No one had any comment... I mean not one word. They all looked at me like I was a martian.


Ed
ps. just say no to crack! :cool:
EdAndres
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: the Mountains

Postby Guest » 08/28/01 07:37 AM

I used to frequent Al's Magic Shop in DC almost every Saturday for a couple of years when I first got into magic. It wasn't to buy anything in as much as I just enjoyed going there to meet people and to hear anecdotes. Some magic shops have a charm that you will probably never find on the Internet (although some websites are cool).

Sorry if I strayed a bit from the main question.
Guest
 

Postby Mark Jensen » 08/29/01 05:40 PM

I think that there are several issues here that fall into several different categories:

1. Regarding the appropriateness of Denny's Ad - Some obviously find it funny, others find it offensive and the rest of us are somewhere in the middle. What I find interesting is we moan and grown about how MAGIC is an art form and how lay people consider Magic to be somewhere between mimes and balloon animal twisters. We are defined by the image that we present. What image does an ad like that present?
2. Now, what about the Brick and Mortar versus Internet only Magic Dealer Debate -

No matter what anyone say's, the sale of magic is a business and as a business most Dealer's are in business to make a profit. Business principals, rules, etc therefore apply.

There are good and bad dealers in both mediums (brick and mortar and Internet).

We should give our business to the good dealers rather than the bad. It doesn't matter whether they are brick and mortar or Internet. Which type of dealer should you give your business to? Which ever best meets your needs.

If you frequent a magic shop should you give them your business? Probably. If you don't frequent the shop should you give them your business? That depends on you. However, I work hard for my money and will buy from whom ever gives me the level of quality and service I require at the appropriate price. It doesn't matter whether they are brick and mortar or an Internet based dealer.

It has been stated many times that there is a glut of magic (books, videos, tricks) on the market and that a majority of it is junk. Unfortunately, it is often difficult to know what is junk until you have bought it. Since all of this is driven by supply and demand, it doesn't bother me at all if there is a correction in the magic marketplace that eliminates some of the "junk". Also, a knowledgeable dealer (either medium) can help to avoid some of the junk.

Finally, just an observation. Since Genii takes advertisements from internet only dealers it seems a little hypocritical for Richard to state so emphatically to buy from brick and mortar shops and not internet shops. I believe that both provide a needed service and that as long as we support "good" dealers that they will survive no matter which medium they exist in. Remember, contrary to what we may think, a majority of the world is not on the Internet.

Best regards,

Mark
Mark Jensen
 
Posts: 328
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Murphy, Texas

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/29/01 06:52 PM

Mark,
There is nothing remotely hypocritical about ads from Internet dealers appearing in Genii. My personal feelings have absolutely nothing to do with what ads are accepted for publication in Genii--that is something that is dictated entirely by the law. We can not legally refuse to accept an ad from anyone unless they are engaging in criminal activity. I mean criminal activity that is defined by the law and recognized by the law. Internet dealers are NOT breaking the law, so we must accept their ads. People who make cheap rip-offs of other people's tricks are also NOT breaking the law, because the law does NOT currently recognize a magic trick as something that can be legally owned (like the copyright on a book can, for example).
I hope that clarifies the matter. :)
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20949
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby David Acer » 08/29/01 08:26 PM

I agree with everything thats been said here so far, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. Also, I think its worth noting that the name Denny is but three letters away from the word devil. The man is clearly Satan.
Now tweeting daily from @David_Acer
David Acer
 
Posts: 733
Joined: 02/09/08 01:00 PM
Location: Montreal, Canada

Postby Brian Morton » 08/29/01 11:51 PM

I remember how the old GENII got flak for the Hiawatha issue or the 666 issue and I think: you know, magicians need to lighten up and get a life.

Magic is not all clowns and balloons -- it mirrors real life. And, yes, there are some brick-and-mortar dealers out there who aren't far from the ad Denny put in. At least, ethically, anyway.

Denny is trying to make a point. He doesn't discount -- but neither does Neiman Marcus. The buyers at NM bust their butts (sorry for the allusion) to give you good service and a great product. So does Denny. If something sucks, he doesn't stock it. If something's beyond your reach (read that as "talent"), he'll gently let you know. You're paying for SERVICE. Get _that_ from your Internet dealer.

I've traveled all over the country and seen .. hell, _spoken to_, dealers that have no problem with renting out copies of magic videos. They've gotten letters from the magicians (one of whom is an author of Richard's who said he sent a letter personally asking that dealer to cease and desist) and the dealer _still_ rents the tapes. Schmuck. So Denny is a) justified and b) pretty cool to attack the subject with humor.

I'll admit -- I'm not exactly unbiased. If you click the link on Denny's site that says "Denny's bio" and you see the Baltimore City Paper article that comes up, well... I wrote that. But Denny cuts me no breaks that he wouldn't do anybody else who regularly spends money in his shop. Read that sentence again. You treat him right, he treats you right. Period.

And I think it's funny that Steve Myers gets to say his butt's been featured on the back cover of a national magazine.

(Oops. Did I say that or just think it?)

brian :cool:
User avatar
Brian Morton
 
Posts: 387
Joined: 03/12/08 11:43 AM
Location: Bawlamer, Merlin

Postby Steve V » 08/29/01 11:56 PM

Okay....to settle this I showed the ad to the most uptight, puritanical, goody two-shoes ever to walk the planet...unfortunatly she's my wife. She asked how they got the photo of me and laughed.
Steve V
Steve V
Steve V
 
Posts: 642
Joined: 01/20/08 01:00 PM
Location: Silver Springs, NV

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/30/01 12:11 AM

Steve V: can you post a picture of your butt on the forum so we can compare?
Juuuuuussssssttttttt joking.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20949
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Ryan Matney » 08/30/01 01:35 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Wendell Morton:
[QB]I remember how the old GENII got flak for the Hiawatha issue or the 666 issue and I think: you know, magicians need to lighten up and get a life.

You know, I have often thought the very same thing. There are people in Knitting clubs that are less uptight than some magicians. No offense to the knitters. I liked the ad.
Ryan Matney
 
Posts: 738
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hurley, Va

Postby Steve V » 08/30/01 02:10 AM

Richard, if you get a'hold of the new MagicTalk video you can see my front...believe me the back is worse.
Steve V
Steve V
Steve V
 
Posts: 642
Joined: 01/20/08 01:00 PM
Location: Silver Springs, NV

Postby Joe M. Turner » 08/30/01 08:35 AM

I remember how the old GENII got flak for the Hiawatha issue or the 666 issue and I think: you know, magicians need to lighten up and get a life.


Actually, I think some people need to stop assuming that because a fellow magician has a different opinion about the butt-crack advertisement, and that they expressed that opinion when specifically asked to do so, that they therefore need to "get a life."

I personally dislike the advertisement for the reasons I stated earlier. Why would that opinion indicate to someone that a person has no life?

Perhaps some folks are just jumping to conclusions (as well as being a little insulting in the process).

Best,
JMT
Joe M. Turner
 
Posts: 418
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Guest » 08/30/01 02:08 PM

Internet dealers are NOT breaking the law, so we must accept their ads.

Richard, are you saying that if you had your druthers you wouldn't accept their ads, and you are only carrying the ads because you are forced to?
Guest
 

Postby Andy Hurst » 08/30/01 04:52 PM

However you look at it, it's made people sit up and look at the ad.

I just find it funny, not the ad - but the reaction its getting. I can't wait to see the reaction to Denny's next ad featuring a hard core sex scene with full frontal nudity and the headline "Use the Internet for Porn, but for magic buy from a real dealer" ;-)

Andy
Andy Hurst
 
Posts: 163
Joined: 03/18/08 12:55 PM

Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/30/01 08:39 PM

Andy's just kidding, folks ...
olramatfus, would you care to make your real name known to us?
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20949
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Joe M. Turner » 08/30/01 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Andy Hurst:
I just find it funny, not the ad - but the reaction its getting.



Andy:

The ad is not getting reaction. Richard's direct question about the ad is getting reaction. It's not an atypical response.

Best,
JMT
Joe M. Turner
 
Posts: 418
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Atlanta, GA

Next

Return to General